georger

Okay. Then what is your response to this quote from Skyjack? Page 171: Either Gray is lying, or you've lived in the Evergreen State. Why deny it? Washington is a really nice place.

Such virtue in the pursuit of journalistic integrity and truth...but I'll bet you were multi-tasking Robert. 377 and what is his excuse for picking on ME!? loves cowshit?

JT and I were talking today wishing we were thirty years younger, no 20, even ten ... five! JT: no reply permitted@!

Right! Who is Telling the truth? To Start with: 1st book I read called it Tena's bar - Mucklow's first name is Tina. Or is it the OTHER WAY around! All I know is what the sign reads - we had a debate about this in the thread ages ago so I finally called up a cousin at Vancouver and asked - "... you mean that place where people go fishing? been over there several times chasing rowdies out ... its Tina Bar ... spelled T I N A B A R... thats what the sign says..." That's all I know. (this has been posted before) He told me there had once been a bar in Vancouver called Tina's Bar .... but had no relation that he knew of to the sand bar ... no direct relation .... he laughed and said, ".... call it whatever you want".

Sure we can agree to call it 'whatever you want' ... as soon as Washington folks decide on its name! I dont live there! I wasnt born and raised there contrary to Blevins dead-certain mind melding. I never said I had no agenda in the Cooper case. You have me confused with mission-statements of ... that other guy. If I have any agenda these days, it is to find out WHO is telling the truth, since I had to give up three years ago on finding 'the truth of the case'. If you find WHO is telling the truth: let me know! Even the Palmer report refers to it as

thanks for the reply, as I mentioned it was a thought. now working in construction for years I also have noticed it doesn't take a sharp object to cut or chew through something at certain RPM'S, I don't know what the condition of those bills would be in after several years underwater (in or out of the bag) like I said, I could be way off, but I feel something is right there for the story, what it is has yet to be found? someone mentioned a boat could do similar damage? I just don't know but thought I would "throw it out here" I don't know squat about dredges but the little I do know I think Amazon is correct. The blade edge would deliver a crushing destructive action more than a cut, it seems to me. Certainly not the delicate cut that a boat motor would deliver. And the abrasion factor of a dredge pipe has to be real - high velocity sand. In a flood scenario things are going to be knocking into a block of bills riding along in the flow, which could account for the features you're seeing? Plus if the block of money is soft from being water logged, it isn't going to take much of a 'knock' to abrade off a portion of bills... I still think deciding between flow vs dredge vs non-natural burial (whatever that means!), has to be approached from a different direction ... I think this issue is undecidable at present. Here's some more photos ...

Sure we can agree to call it 'whatever you want' ... as soon as Washington folks decide on its name! I dont live there! I wasnt born and raised there contrary to Blevins dead-certain mind melding. I never said I had no agenda in the Cooper case. You have me confused with mission-statements of ... that other guy. If I have any agenda these days, it is to find out WHO is telling the truth, since I had to give up three years ago on finding 'the truth of the case'. If you find WHO is telling the truth: let me know!

Don't make promises you can't keep. And whether these latest things are 'better' from you is a matter of opinion. I'm always interested in what you have to say, but you keep confusing personalities with the case at hand. always has a comeback - play it again and again and again Sam. You're a man with a mission. The only "personality" here is YOU. Your claim to having the Palmer Report has gone viral in the Cooper community. Was that just another lie? You really need to back off and let people discuss here freely, for a change, without your constant interference and smartass remarks - try it - you might like the results ...

Blevins, I'll take Amazon's word at face value. If you don't believe it was a result of dredging either, just who are you trying to convince and why? Robert99 Convince of what? It's almost like some people around here are afraid of outside research. Maybe their pet theories will be destroyed, ones they've followed for years. I'm not afraid of the truth, no matter where it leads, or whether or not it leads to KC being the hijacker, for example. You can't be right about something simply by saying you are. I have no agenda in the DB Cooper case except discovering the truth, and that includes the mystery of how exactly that money came to Tena Bar. Sure, I'm willing to take Amazon's word on the non-dredging possibility. But that doesn't take away the fact that major investigation and theories have been discussed on the dredging issue, and that it has supporters even now. There are countless posts and pictures posted here about it. Different people have gone into the field at Tena Bar and researched it. I thought the idea of an actual dredging test was a solid suggestion. If you can't prove a point, then the best bet is to at least eliminate the possibilities. The fewer possibilities, the closer you may get to the actual truth. Let's get down to basics here. We all know there are only three realistic possibilities concerning the money. First, dredging. Second, washed up on shore or dropped from sky, maybe combined. Third, human hands. By eliminating dredging once and for all, we can narrow the possibilities down to two items. And then it might be possible to eliminate one of those remaining through outside research. This, in my opinion, would be a really big deal because then the Tena Bar money would tell us something about the hijacker. Like...we should continue looking for the body or other physical evidence...or perhaps he got away with it and tossed a red herring out for the FBI. Right now, there are just too many questions and some are tricky to answer. So maybe you go for the ones you might be able to answer, to narrow the list a bit. "The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people..." "The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people..." Teddy Roosevelt "The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people..." Teddy Roosevelt "The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people..." Teddy Roosevelt Teddy Roosevelt Play it again Sam ... unfortunately for Mankind, you will. "The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people..." Teddy Roosevelt

"The Hunt for DB Cooper" © 2011 Bruce A. Smith Smith: you have a PM. Your regular email is not working.

On your last question there...as if I would trust you with that information? Or even put it on a public forum? You're kidding, right? Besides, now that I find that this report could be restricted, and it might not be legal for me to possess it, I suddenly don't see it on the alternate computer anymore. Maybe it was never there at all. Yeah, that's it. It was never there, and I never printed up a hard copy to examine. You're doing the Drama Queen thing again, IMHO. I never said you couldn't discuss anything. And yes...Carnegie-Mellon was one of the universities I suggested for outside analysis of the Amboy chute and money samples. Your point was? Oh, yeah...I was the one who suggested it. I forgot that with you this is a non-starter. The reason I supported Amazon's idea on the Dredging Test is because there has been endless discussion and research on the dredging theory. And such a test could put the lie to that theory once and for all. This leaves only three other possibilities. Fell from the sky and landed there, or very close. Fell from the sky and washed down to location it was found. Human intervention. Select those you want on this thread and the rest should vanish! YOU ARE NOW IN CHARGE - No more debates... Publish your list of your chosen participants. I have better things to do -

Georger and MeyerLouie: The last time I suggested that samples of the bills be sent to a higher education facility to be analyzed by people having the right equipement to do so...at least ONE of you pooh-poohed that idea. Georger actually made jokes about it. This only proves that you judge ideas not on their CONTENT, but on WHO suggests the idea. Now you are coming back now with basically the same idea, although you never stated WHO should do the analyzing. If you are speaking about investigating the idea of foreign material or microbes embedded within the cotton fibers of the paper, you are going to need more than a Dr. Johnny Toy Microscope to do so. This means an establishment geared for this sort of thing. On the Flooding in Washington State: If they wouldn't clear cut all the trees...they wouldn't have so much flooding. The natural process during heavy rains is for the water to be caught in the tree canopy and be released to the ground slowly over a period of time. When all the trees are gone, the water simply rushes down the hillsides into the creeks, and floods out the rivers below. I've seen this process happen up here for decades and wrote a two-part article about it in 2007. Yepper, Sailor! Well then, I think we should suspend all discussion about the Cooper money until you have had time to do your (welfare financed) dredge tests, and your parachute and Cooper money tests by Carnagie-Mellon ... with ONLY you and the people you select allowed to mention, or enter in discussion, of these matters ... until YOU say its permissible ? Roses 're red and violets 're purple and sugar's sweet and so is maple syrple Well I'm seventh out of seven sons My pappy was a pistol I'm a son of a gun Dang me dang me they oughta take a rope and hang me High from the highest tree woman would you weep for me? Who did you get your copy of the 'Palmer Report' from? Geoffrey Gray? Curtis Eng? Tom Kaye? Keep avoiding the subject you brought up!

Georger explain that statement in more detail - please! I read Tosaw's book but it has been a long time - perhaps I should dig it out and study it some more. We are told the only dredging material applied to T_Bar 1971-1980 came from bottom sediments between mile markers Y and Z, between 8/19-8/25 1974. How would Cooper artifacts become part of the bottom sediment, in that location, to be collected by dredging at all? For one thing we aren't talking about heavy objects that would settle to the bottom quickly near their point of entry.

My point was that I have seen what comes out of the pipe where it is being deposited. They have a similar deposit area they use at the end of Puget Island where my property is much more recently. The stuff coming out is sand... not rock or gravel.. sand. sometimes the sand is a bit dirty but certainly not filled with clay MUCK. Any branches or TREES that the cutter hits come out pretty well masticated. I was trying to make the point that I do not believe the bills would have been able to remain in stacks.. just from the forces of being ground up by that cutter head and then subjected to the intense hydraulic activity of the pumps and then washing down hundreds of yards of pipe to the out wash basin on shore where they deposit the spoil. An even bigger problem than 'can money pass through a dredge', is the issue of how Cooper artifacts would have become part of the bottom sediment, between specific mile markers, to be deposited on Tena Bar in the first place? Tosaw used divers and Columbia river salvage experts to try and address that issue.

_________________________________________________ Of course you didn't hear Georger mention that dredging has been going on for years on the Columbia. MeyerLouie No offense to Aamazon at all in this - Imsure she knows I mean none! Its just that there are people who have been dredging and seeing-testing the results for a very long time, and on the other end .... there have been people dealing with 'old recovered money' for as long or longer ... there isnt much these folks haven;t seen in the repertoire of what can happen to a dollar bill, between here and on Pluto! It's almost that sweeping a catalog of experience and expertise. The FBI for one is fully aware of that if it even needs saying .... Thanks and good night - G.

Of course you didn't hear Georger mention that dredging has been going on for years on the Columbia. I think that's what they call selective memory. Instead of a "test," instead of re-inventing the wheel, maybe it would be better to talk to the dredging professionals there -- who have been dredging that part of the Columbia River for years and years -- and pose your questions and scenarios to them. They may already have the answers that you seek, Grasshopper. And you might get the information you seek for free as well, Grasshopper. MeyerLouie One nice thing about cotton fibres (in paper money) ... they have a twist and when they swell they make neat little cavities for holding things like sand, bacteria, etc... cozy little environments for thingies ... I was a working member of the science team for a time and shared in the results ... just in case Blevins has lost complete track of reality.

Have a nice day, Blevins. I'm so glad we had this talk. MeyerLouie Be careful - dont wind up on the wrong side again - no point taking a fall for .... the wrong reason/person. I deleted everything above just in case ... you never said it!

Fine. You want answers go read your Palmer Report - yes!? Your pedestrian concerns and claims have nothing to do with anything here! Nothing you above say makes any sense - this is ridiculous again. Maybe go take a course in Cooper at your local community college ?

Of course, Georger, that would have to be. That means then that the twain did meet -- the money and the River -- the money was in the River. Lots of people assume right here then that the money packets must have floated naked --there was no enclosure or bag to contain them. Is that necessarily so? Yes maybe not. If the bill packets were on land the whole time but periodically in contact with Columbia river water, melt water, and the like as during the flood of 79, that would be enough to infiltrate the bills with sediments. One would expect to find sediment chemistry and sand particles embedded in the cotton fibres of the bills, even to the middle of a bundle as was found. The nature of those particles and the chemistry of the sediment could be important ... Any protective cover over or around the money is going to extend the period of time until infiltration occurs. Sediments carry with it bacteria also - And just so you know, there was a major drought in 1978 - 4th lowest Columbia river levels ever recorded - this ended in Dec 78 going into flood in 1979 with the Washougal basin, for example, ten feet out of its banks. Some thought these floods in 79 is what brought Cooper money to Tena Bar. Who knows ...

And there is evidence of either straw or clay found in these bills? Or evidence they traveled through a dredger before being found? Or went down a river first? What 'sediment-saturated' bills do you refer to? I'm going to repeat a Great Truth here about the Tena Bar money that I still believe is accurate: The finding of the money, and the resultant investigation into that money, has raised more questions than it actually answers. MeyerLouie: No need to bold up every response. I have a really good monitor here.

This is GENIUS. The most obvious test was in front of everyone all the time. But it took Amazon to think it up. Has already happened ages ago... documented. Dredges have been operating forever - you think money has never passed through one?

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and clay are common building materials since the prehistoric. Did they keep the rubber bands from crumbling to dust, as well? They were still intact, except they crumbled once handled. However...this also assumes they were still in the stretched position, or something close it it when found. This is EXTREMELY unlikely given Kaye's tests, which show intense degradation after less than a year when exposure to water or burial is a factor. Wherever those bills came from, it probably didn't happen in 1971, and they certainly weren't exposed to the elements for ten years. Maybe the real clue here isn't the condition of the bills, but the condition of the rubber holding them together. I would also point out there was neither clay or straw embedded in the bill packets, as far as I know. They were found under a few inches of sand. If clay particles were mixed in with the bills, it's pretty likely Kaye and his team would have found them. I have the greatest respect for both MeyerLouie's and Georger's opinions. But as some here have reminded me occasionally, (and deservedly) let's try to stay with reality and the known facts when possible.

So, I guess it's common knowledge that river sediment helped keep the bills together -- MeyerLouie Yes. That's what I'm saying. Cellulose ( straw) and clay are common building materials since the prehistoric.

How about entertaining the possibility that the money stacks stayed lined up because they were tightly secured in some sort of receptacle, like a money bag. MeyerLouie A couple of points: This socalled alignment issue is being over-played and misstated imo. Tom seems to be contradicting himself because Tom also includes an alignment diagram which is anything but 'perfect alignment' - see his website. Attached. (Keep in mind, we don't know where in the stack this bill that Tom shows, was. And we dont know if this bill and its parts represents the overall status/orientations of the bills in bundles "when buried", and neither does Tom. Tom's use of the word "buried" can only be a generic use of the word because nobody knows the process that applied when the money got deposited on the sandbar.) Also: it is commonly understood the 'pile' of money was being held together (cemented together) by river sediments - not by rubber bands (which is ludicrous). The bands had longsince ceased to function - Also: Dredge spoils moved 50ft @ direction ... What Tom actually says is: "probably moved"! No one knows for sure not even Fazio who did the moving. He never measured anything in the multiple moving sessions that were applied during and after the spoil was applied to his beachfront. I had somebody talk to him. see attached...

ONLY a BLOOMING idiot could possibly believe what you just stated above! Do YOU read and COMPREHEND what you wrote above? 100 twenty dollar bills is 1/3 of an inch thick (appox). WOULD any one here CALL 1/3 of an inch A BUNDLE? Would any one here even think about putting a rubber band around this small stack of bills. If you compress it enough it is only 1/4 of an inch. Perhaps one of those small green rubber band and it would still curl. Do yourself a little experiment! Take 100 one dollar bills and see what happens if you put a rubber band around them.