georger

You just answered a question Ive had - that's good news.

has the FBI ever said anything about the time issues, map vs transcripts? Well in pieces ... H in 1976 gave an interview saying the FBI now believed the Lake Merwin scenario was wrong; that Cooper had bailed '12 miles north of Portland'. 2nd, there has been a long rumored "conference" that was held supposedly to discuss the Cooper case and the flight path. There were several newspaper accounts of a conference being held, but details were never published so far as I know ... 3rd. Ckret bought into Sluggo's idea that Cooper had bailed somewhere around Scotton or Orchards .. then there was chatter about FBI people poking around that area and some of this was discussed here in DZ, but Ckret would never confirm or deny anything - whatever he may have said to Sluggo privately.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo, Robt99, and others. IMHO. Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft. Robert99 up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the map for the FBI?? There has been speculation that Soderlind (sp?) at NWA did, but others seem to discount that referring to 'radar data from McChord' ... so maybe it was someone from McChord, in cooperation with NWA ... but then Ckret implied maybe someone at the FBI 'used a pencil on a map and made the map' ! ??? I sure don't know. (That must be pretty obvious)

Thanks for your opinion, Elmer Fudd. Wage Earner Sheeple! Knock off the names. And as a matter of point, if you look back a few posts...you basically AGREED with the idea there isn't any evidence Cooper faked a jump and went later. Can we say 'double-standard' here? Which names, Oh Master! WAGE EARNER SHEEPLE ? That was your - N A M E. The rest is pure speculation on you part.

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo, Robt99, and others. IMHO.

The idea that the rebounding of the airstairs, the indicator light going off for a moment, and then coming back on for good, is the best evidence supporting the idea that Cooper jumped at the time the crew said he did. There just isn't any evidence showing otherwise. I mean, it's pure speculation. Thanks for your opinion, Elmer Fudd. Wage Earner Sheeple!

I'm glad you brought up the aft stairs issue again. Here's the truth: no one has proven when Cooper jumped from 305. Rataczak's testimony about when he thought Cooper jumped (when the pressure bump occurred) does not prove that Cooper jumped at that time. The pressure bump is only an indicator of a possibility, maybe even a strong possibility, that's it. No one, I mean, no one saw Cooper jump. Hence, no one has been able to prove when the jump actually occurred -- if it even occurred. MeyerLouie Good post Meyer, but I have a different perspective. You say no one saw Cooper jump. and while that is true, what was seen was a very unique set of events (oscillations & bump) which were seen on the panel. That unique presentation occurs not before nor after 8:12-16, and that unique set of events was duplicated in the test flight with a unique fact common in both occasions: weight on and off the stairs during flight . That to my mind is "seeing". It is instrumental seeing. It is a unique presentation the crew experienced at no other time during the flight. Had it been witnessed more than once then you would have reason to wonder. That not being the case: Cooper jumped in the 8:12-8:16 time period. As you know I place a very high value on what Guru, Farflung, and Amazon have said. I think you need to go back and look at this placement on the stairs issue again. Something of a factual nature may have been missed about those stairs. ~ I am talking about the physical facts of those stairs during the flight; not what Cooper intended or was thinking or would have done or should have done had he been 377 or Blevins, who think they have special insight into Cooper's personality and personal issues!. That kind of nonsense has no place in this analysis. I think Guru, Aamazon, and Farflung have made some valuable comments which may set a new direction, and it has been missed. Their comments defiantly raise some new-old questions, imho.

I dunno. Why are YOU here? If you answered 'discussion of the Cooper case,' then we gave the same answer. At least my posts are usually easier to follow than S-71's. To address her last post: If Duane had an arrest in Spokane, what was it for, when did it happen, and what does it have to do with his suspect status in the hijacking? These days, things are just not as secret as they used to be. For example, if you apply to the Spokane County Court Clerk, these are about the only records you are not allowed to access, or have a copy of: •Adoption Records •Mental illness commitment records •Alcohol and drug treatment commitment records •Paternity records (except final judgment) •Confidential name changes •Juvenile non-offender records (Juvenile Dependency, Truancy, At-Risk Youth, Child in Need of Services, Termination of Parental Rights, and Developmental Disability Placement) •Court records sealed by judicial order Spokane County is one of the better counties in Washington for keeping old records. Weber's probably there on microfilm, if nothing else.

I don't have an answer for everything, and brother have I been wrong before on the Cooper case. Oh, yes. I have come up with some serious 'duh' here and there. However, I don't like being compared to a couple of others around here who have been secretive and incomplete regarding their investigations into the case. Or compared to a guy who tells more tall tales than Andy Devine's character Frisby in Twilight Zone. Fortunately, he hasn't been around lately although I suspect he's here and there on any Cooper page or discussion about the case on the internet. I never did baseball. I'm lousy at it. I was a football guy and I was never picked last. My rushing skills were not bad.

Yes that did it - I got what I needed - thanks.

what do you consider "evidence", Master? When you can snatch the pebble from my hand...then you will know what evidence is. . Dont visit Saudia Arabia - stick to Auburn where they let Sham Wow practice their internet arts!

If you just break even in the Cooper casino, you are a winner. 377 what ist the OD of a 727-100 main tire?

What I actually referred to was the utter uselessness of fluff inside a knife as evidence for very logical reasons. Shortly after the hijacking, knife proven to be Duane's, yes. Today, well 'doubtful' is putting it politely. Chain of evidence is irretrevably broken, due to the knife being handled, examined, picked at by both YOU and Sluggo, and the length of time since the hijacking. . what do you consider "evidence", Master?

Robert99 99, what is the outside diameter of the 727-100 main wheel (Cooper plane) ? Goodyear chart attached says 49 or 50 inches. But is that full OD or just rim-to-rim? I need the full outside OD.

The grandeur of your emptiness becomes you. I think you are destined to replace Jesus and Carl Marks as the biggest windbag since Pope Braggart the First.! So teach us "wage earner sheeple", Oh Master!

Jo, Given your bias that Duane was DBC I'd give more credence to Sluggo's opinion about the knife residue than yours. Still, I wasn't there and you were. If the fibers of the knife residue were a perfect match to the suspension lines from the cut Norjack chute I'd pay attention. I cut some extra military surplus suspension line tonight with a sharp pocket knife. I did not see any visible fiber residue. 377 Any residue would probably not stay on the blade. You would find it in the area where the blade rests when it is closed. When I use a pocketknife to cut a lot of cord for hanging tarps for camping, sometimes you end up blowing out the fluff from the groove. It builds up there. Check-In Time at the Reality Hotel: There could be problem here with any evidence from a knife, even if you could match some fluff to the proper paracord: Maybe I get hold of a pocketknife and can certify it once belonged to a guy with the initials KC, right? Then...I research out the exact type of cord used in the chute that was cut. Remember, this information on the chute is available. I scrape off fluff from the same paracord. In the chute biz, I imagine you could find almost any vintage matching chute you wanted by putting out feelers and having some bucks available. Times is hard.

Georger are U just playing around with the minds of people? If you actually have ANY inside information - you know that - perhaps Cooper tied off the neck of the bag, but he was only securing it to place into another container. Was that container what the money was placed in to get it on the plane or was another container provided by the crew when Cooper was upset about how the money was contained? USE your minds and imaginations and the collective information given by the witnesses here. The money did NOT go out of that plane with a bag tied off at the neck - the passengers saw NO such bag, because it was contained within another container. Cooper probably did tie off the top of the bank bag after he verified there was actually cash in it. He did NOT release the passengers until the money was delivered & verified - RIGHT or WRONG? Guys answer that question and many of the other reasonable answers will surface. ??? We are talking about his tying off of the bag, whatever bag he wound up using, just before he jumped. I will have to go back to notes or ask someone ... I just don't remember and I need to attend to other things - later tonight -

This has been a major problem for YEARS - since Mr. H's book. The artist simply made a picture, but NOT a picture of what Tina actually told. The artist never spoke with Tina and had NO contact with the FBI. Tina's testimony - and that of another crew memory is VERY different from that sketch in Mr. H's book. Concept and what REALLY happened are 2 different things. Did Tina help the artist or did he just draw what he thought was the best? If you don't know now you will never know. The money was NOT delivered to the plane in just a whitish bank bag! NO way the FBI wanted the passengers to see that coming on the plane! Such action would have cause a lot passengers to have freaked out. Use some common sense and talk to the witnesses....the money was in a whitish bag and that bag was NOT seen by the passengers, but contained within another "package". It was small enough Tina was able to carry it on and she also got the chute on the plane by herself. Tina was NOT a large muscle bound woman! USE some COMMON SENSE when you guys talk about this! I would have to go back to notes but I recall he tried transferring money to another bag/container, out of te original bank bag ? But then decided to use the bank bag and transferred money back to that bag? Then tied his line around "the neck of the bag" (several loops), and tied that around his waste (several more loops). The issue is: which bag at the end tied around its "neck" then tied to his waste ? What have your sources said? Do you understand the question? (you seem to) ?? Im going to talk to some people within a week and will ask about this specifically ... later...

Easily. Clearance would be no problem. 377 377, Not so fast here. The instant Cooper's weight comes off those stairs they are going to start upwards. So could he have cleared the end of the stairs before being smacked by the stairs? Not very likely. Robert99 here are some photos and specs - the door/stairs are going to be clearing about 7ft vertical feet in t' amount of time to be at a level position ( not fully retracted). The unknown is t'. the flight test drop photos provide t' with forward velocity known... someone have the forward velocity? 175mph? 160mph? radius of travel is given in the spec sheets. (10' 4.4") of course all of this assumes immediate-uniform retraction speed ..which may not be totally accurate

Easily. Clearance would be no problem. 377 377, Not so fast here. The instant Cooper's weight comes off those stairs they are going to start upwards. So could he have cleared the end of the stairs before being smacked by the stairs? Not very likely. Also, everyone seems to forget that in the FBI flight tests (same aircraft, same people flying it), when the weighted boxes were slid down the stairs and off the end is when the stairs rebounded with the same pressure fluctation that the crew reported during the hijacking. Robert99 Exactly. This could have been the beginning of an instability that strips him of the money bag and I'm focusing more on his tie around the neck of that bag vs. the tie around his waste. Torque on his stomach muscles from the bag tied around his waste another issue during any instability. Dick P at Boeing felt these were potentially very destructive forces. Could we estimate the time/force involved when the stairs flop up to estimate the amount of time Cooper has to clear the space ? But that tie around the neck of the money bag looks vulnerable to me .... IF ... he used that bag. Maybe the bag he uses is the back chute container ??? Tina does talk about him 'pouring money into another bag' and I'm still unclear about that. I will be talking to people in about a week who might able to clarify Tina's testimony ... ps: It stands to reason all of this was covered by those conducting the flight tests. I'm assuming those are confidential documents. I can ask but I am almost sure what the answer will be, in advance ...

So that's why some of our northern neighbors seem a bit loopy? The easily confused types end up there? Just kidding Amazon. I think Canadians are pretty much like regular people most of the time. 377 and what of 'eh' vs 'ey' !? That is important!

If he pulled right off the stairs he'd be OK. No spin and hanging under an open chute. Look at the slo mo video Snow made of the Air America 727 jumps. No spin, no tumble. A squidding canopy decelerates the jumper smoothly. If he delayed the pull, big trouble. As soon as he hit the air beyond the area shielded by the plane KABOOM. In the WFFC jet jumps many people tumbled on exit. Fanny packs and velcroed wrist altimeters were ripped off a few people. My tight goggles were ripped off my face. Only my helmet over the strap held them on. No big deal. Sunny day. Perfect horizon. No asymmetrical payload bag. In a few seconds the experienced jumpers stabilized. BUT, the way you stabilize is to orient yourself with the horizon AND a heading reference. On a cloudy night you might have NEITHER. You can arch hard and you will end up belly to earth, but you can't stop a spin without a heading reference. An unchecked spin can increase in rotational speed until the jumper blacks out. An attached payload bag, unless tightly fastened and presenting a symmetrical drag profile relative to the jumper, will cause a spin. At the symposium I showed photos of a test jump I did with a large canvas bag affixed to one leg. It wasn't carrying loot, just radio telemetry gear. During initial freefall that bag almost flipped me over. I managed to compensate with my body. My exit speed was low (about 75 knots). If I had hit the airstream at Coopers exit speed I'd have gone unstable. In daylight I could have fixed it, especially as I slowed down to 120 mph terminal velocity. At night with no horizon or heading reference I don't think I could have stabilized. So I only agree with Jerry in one exit scenario, a delayed pull. If Cooper knew to pull right off the stairs I think he was stable, got a good chute and landed alive. After that I can't say. A water landing at night could easily be fatal. Even if he alighted on ground there could be problems. I've done a jet jump. I've made three jumps with a big bag. I've made jumps with a walkie talkie and operated it after opening.. I've never combined all three but I can tell you that at night it would be a major handful. 377 So, how does tying around the waste (and possibly leg) square with professional-had-training vs. wufo ? What's the vote?

Thanks propblast -

where is the line attached in the photo? around the waste?