snowmman

yeah I can see that. Orange1 is like the only person that made jumping sound like it makes sense. She talked about the fun feeling of flying. And I can see the social thing. It's fun talking about the big cool thing you just did with a bunch of friends. And you have a lot of variation. So there's always something new to try, new gear etc. It's always changing. But doesn't all these guys who want it to just be a exhibition of manhood, kind of take away from it? Doesn't it make you wonder if you're getting sucked into that thinking? I have no problem with dying.. But the worst feeling must be just before dying, realizing that maybe you did something for this chest-beating reason only. I just read a thing where a jumper got injured and he was questioning his motivations, in terms of returning. I think for anything with high rate of injury, you gotta be sure that it's worth the risk, before you get injured. (actually I think you have to convince yourself that you've got everything under control and it can't happen to you..but that's about managing, i.e. avoiding, self deception). So when I see all this chest thumping talk, I think "Okay, there's nothing to be learned skill wise from that..it's probably part of the self-deception that should be avoided"

Amazon, it's always the same old thing. I don't even remember how we started talking about the woods again. But we start with claims about how Cooper could or couldn't walk out (remember I'm in the camp of him landing in the water right now)..then it rapidly progresses into chest beating (it's such a man thing)...then if the other person isn't intimidated, the ante has to be up and up'ed..because the base skydiving thing isn't that bad, execution wise (if you're not worried about the fear-managing part). So we get to the "jump naked in a snowstorm with a 50 lb weight from a cessna flying upside down"...and everyone claiming they're the only one in the world who have managed to conquer fear or manage an adrenalin rush. I never (well, historically, never) attack your guy's sport. I'm talking about Cooper. Somehow, you guys have unhealthily wrapped whuffo beliefs into your sport. You know, from the outside in, when you guys have deaths, it sure looks like some percentage of it comes from your fucked up minds about the whole sport. It's like you guys need a certain percentage of deaths, to justify your little chest thumping. It's weird.

I know Mike.. and he has a sweet little Cessna and its very close to the area since he is just to the NW of Mt St Helens... If he was reading this thread I think he would agree thtat some people need to put their asses out of the plane so they might discover a clue. Hi Amazon. I've never jumped, and it would be an interesting experience. If you can arrange this Cessna jump somehow, I'd do it. It would be interesting, to actually know, as you say. I mentioned this before. When I'm calibrating and trying to understand whether you guys are just old farts trying to act macho, or whether there's something real here..... The article I posted about the guy who did his first jump off El Cap as a base jump...and we got the background that he had only had some tunnel and ground training beforehand. Now I'm sure that was scary, But hey, no problem for him. So execution-wise, I'm not sure what bullshit you're talking about. Any bullshit thing you're going to do with a cessna seems pretty mentally easy, fear-wise, if that's the angle you're going after. Is this a test of who's macho and who's not? I'm up for it. Free plane rides are fun. Ask around... I think you will find plenty of people on this site that know me... and have jumnped with me... all over the country. I may be old and decrepit.. but I know I could still do that jump at night... in bad weather... I have quite a few night jumps.. I have hundreds of round jumps... and the area where he jumped at.. I have hiked and climbed and hunted in for many years. Hi Amazon. I'm not interested in jumping as a hobby or anything like that, so I have no need to make friends here. You could ask "Why the fuck do I post?" I have no answer to that. I don't know. I'm sure you're everything you say you are. That's great. But we're talking about a lot of things. Being macho. Bogus military training. Why people die doing dangerous things. Exposure issues in the woods we're talking about. Weather survival. Sounds like it's all degraded into bar talk. My take is that skydiving is mostly about bar talk.

I know Mike.. and he has a sweet little Cessna and its very close to the area since he is just to the NW of Mt St Helens... If he was reading this thread I think he would agree thtat some people need to put their asses out of the plane so they might discover a clue. Hi Amazon. I've never jumped, and it would be an interesting experience. If you can arrange this Cessna jump somehow, I'd do it. It would be interesting, to actually know, as you say. I put this link in the other thread.. right there at Ariel WA... lot of nice grass places to land.... http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ariel+WA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.291089,124.453125&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Ariel,+Cowlitz,+Washington&ll=45.957467,-122.560301&spn=0.005437,0.015192&t=h&z=17 The closest DZ to where Cooper jumped would be this... they can hook you up with training and the cessna...Mike might even have a round stuck in the loft someplace. I have a few jumps there and even did Video for him when we set the NW record for tandem jumpers in one day at his DZ. http://www.skydivetoledo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=35 Arrange it, give me a date. Like I said, better after christmas. you pay for the plane. I'll pay to get there.

I know Mike.. and he has a sweet little Cessna and its very close to the area since he is just to the NW of Mt St Helens... If he was reading this thread I think he would agree thtat some people need to put their asses out of the plane so they might discover a clue. Hi Amazon. I've never jumped, and it would be an interesting experience. If you can arrange this Cessna jump somehow, I'd do it. It would be interesting, to actually know, as you say. I mentioned this before. When I'm calibrating and trying to understand whether you guys are just old farts trying to act macho, or whether there's something real here..... The article I posted about the guy who did his first jump off El Cap as a base jump...and we got the background that he had only had some tunnel and ground training beforehand. Now I'm sure that was scary, But hey, no problem for him. So execution-wise, I'm not sure what bullshit you're talking about. Any bullshit thing you're going to do with a cessna seems pretty mentally easy, fear-wise, if that's the angle you're going after. Is this a test of who's macho and who's not? I'm up for it. Free plane rides are fun.

Ah! a hunter at least has a purpose with a gun. I will say that I've met a small number of hunters (at least when I was younger). They all have much saner relationships with their weapons.

So you've got a story where polar or brown bear chased you? Let's hear it? Or are you just spouting?

Hey you guys have your sport, .. fine. but stuff like this "CHRIST, One thing that this thread makes me want to do is put a rig on a bunch of candy asses... and huck em from a plane." I mean how are people supposed to react? My reaction is: "Okay, you created a situation where you're totally dependent on a piece of man-made gear. Sure it's thrilling..and if some things fuck up, you've got some recovery procedures, that are not bulletproof...So you've built all this macho posturing into it, for some reason I don't understand....If it was just fun, you'd just say it was fun. Why all the macho bullshit?"" I could point a gun at you and pull the trigger and you could jump around and duck and weave..if you just wanted macho?

I'll admit I'm gambling. I've been around enough to place my bets. I'm comfortable with them.

Good school. Anthropologists & Stateside physicians helped set up those survival courses back in the 60s. Still have some old memrographed spiral bound training manuals from those courses. .... dont eat polar bear liver. Hyper vitaminosis. Vitamin A. Good example of dumbass military training. Spend time talking about eating polar bear livers. Like that's something you need to worry about. Meanwhile, the dumbass soldiers go to take a piss outside with just their inner boots on and slide down the mountain with their pants around their knees.

If I remember right, no one was shooting at Cooper. Why does combat experience matter here? (edit) Why the fuck would I care about Larry Carr or Himmelsbach? I think they're both stupid???

Have you ever rescued someone? I'd be interested in hearing the details. Training doesn't count. What's something that you did that you trained for, but wasn't training? High Altitude Rescue? Like what? I can't imagine you did anything other than call in choppers. Is there more to that? I hate to tell you this..but the types of training the military does... has led to a hell of a lot of training deaths over the years. exactly! I think you get what I mean. It's like there's this macho thing going down, as opposed to "it's all about getting home safe". I'm serious about how the military training (for small teams like 2-3) seems to play catchup to the non-military groups in terms of skills/equipment/current techniques...see the sport aspect of it, is way out there...it's 20-30 year olds, with the best gear, fitness and training, and experience and learning...large groups in the military training...can't compete with that...because you have to WANT to put it out there...there's really no sane reason to do it..so how you going to train that? train to be a nut case? See it's not just about the training...it's about wanting it. Another example: all the gear/equipment migration is from sport to military, not the other way around. Same thing with instructors. (edit) Note that I'm equating if you're dying = means you're stupid. Explain details if it means otherwise. (edit) I'll caveat the above with a guess that the macho stuff is partly tied to the need to be ready to die in combat situations. Whereas sport situations have different goals (have fun/stay alive/goals can be adjusted). I guess I'm positing the military stuff doesn't create the flexible mind/advanced state-of-the-art experiences, in my personal experiences with folks. I'd never do something with a military guy.

Sounds like a lot of LEG work Sounds like bullshit to me. Training is training. Let's hear some real life stories if there's bragging to be done. Let's see. Jerry tell us about the time you actually fell in a crevasse, not on purpose during training, and it was just you and your partner with no one for 70 miles? How'd you make it back?

Have you ever rescued someone? I'd be interested in hearing the details. Training doesn't count. What's something that you did that you trained for, but wasn't training? High Altitude Rescue? Like what? I can't imagine you did anything other than call in choppers. Is there more to that?

377 said "No dogma Snow, but you are awfully quick to insult." It's only an insult if it's true. If it's not true, I'm just another dumb guy spouting off on DZ.com and you can all laugh at me. Now, aren't we after truth here? See the "let's be nice to people full of shit" is what leads to the Jo Weber effect. Jo Weber, Jerry Thomas, and Himmelsbach, they're all part of the same bullshit.

I did the USAF Cool School at Eilson AFB in DEC of 1972.. and served as a SERE instructor for 8 years.. I had lots of fun going camping all over the world compliments of the USAF. I am sure you know the USAF training gave the students far less gear when they were doing survival training.... If I would have had my way I would have extended their training a bit by hucking them from planes as well. Amazon, I think you're agreeing with me. Yes? I'm just a middle-of-the-road guy, but if we're going to throw down, I'm pretty confident I could out-photo either of you guys with personal in-extremis shots. But that's not the point. It's a simple matter of "Pick a spot in WA. Claim it's the DZ. Prove you can't walk out to humanity". So far, the one spot Jerry has pointed to, has been obscenely close to humanity. Yet Jerry claims it's "death woods". That's the bullshit part. I've read Jerry Thomas' and Himmelsbach's bullshit and had to put up with it because Jerry gets some slack for being a soldier ..but it's bullshit.

That's not been my experience. I have a friend who is ex USCG. He doesn't have a degree but he's smart as hell. He was a top main frame troubleshooter for IBM back in the day. He did far more than blindly swap circuit cards. He can fix anything from diesel engines to radar transceivers. A guy I work with has long hair in a pony tail but spent many years in the left seat of a B 52G bomber. He is creative and flexible. Smart as hell too with degrees in law and engineering. There are dummies in uniform and dummies in expensive suits. 377 Agreed. I'm talking about the ones that like to lecture about them knowing "the one true way". My experience has been that people who really know, never lecture. They always realize they're limited by their own experiences, and maybe have been lucky enough to have some others haven't, and others have had some they've not. Once people start spewing dogma, that's when my b.s. detector goes off. I know I post a lot, But I don't think I spew dogma? Maybe I do? Let me have it then.

See here's my pet peeve. All these fucking military guys who think they know jack shit about survival or outdoor skills. Every military guy I've ever met has been dumb as a board. And unsafe to be with, because they've been coddled in the massive-group approach the military has. Now I understand the military operations and their needs. But to say they understand outdoors and survival more than anyone else (especially individual in extremis situations not involving combat?) ....well only when you're talking about a bunch of 18 year olds with no experience thrown into stuff that's new for them. I mean we can break down these so called high-end military training camp things Jerry has mentioned, and you'll see what I mean. They are bullshit. I wouldn't trust anyone trained there to hold my dog's leash in winter. That's just fact.

I want to be alone in the woods with him and convince him to pull a weapon on me too, so I can beat the shit out of him. I'm tired of these assholes with guns like Jerry and Sluggo. Like it means shit. (edit) Jerry: I'm 6'4". Right now I weigh 190-195. My usual good weight is 180-185. You know what I'm tired of? All these women who startle when I come around the corner, like I'm supposed to apologize for scaring them. I'll take it out on you.

Jerry's gotten me thinking about, okay, when have I been in OR and WA and what happened. I was on the north side of Mt Hood one winter with a friend. Not a big deal, but lonely, since most people go up the easier sides, and not as much traffic in winter. But we did get lost coming down. And we were following a road. The road twisted and turned, and we knew we had left our car on the road, so we figured we would walk into it. But we took these shortcuts they had between switchbacks, and we must have bypassed the car somewhere. (edit) It was my wife's Honda Civic. We borrowed it, and it got stuck in the snow and my friend pushed in the hood trying to shove it out. We left it figuring the snow would melt by the time we returned. We didn't think the hood was a big deal. My wife did. Hmm. probably my friends will say I have more of these kind of long walkout stories, than maybe I will admit! It's the worst feeling, after you've walked downhill a long long way. And you have to turn to your buddy and say "We have to go back" Because you're never sure which way to go..basically a toss of the coin...now that I'm thinking of it, the worst "we have to go back" stories have been summer. I can think of a number of stories like that. Just not being able to find the car. Now, really being lost. It's hard to feel lost for more than a day. I can remember only maybe once when I had to go to sleep at night thinking "I really have no idea where I am"....but at least I knew I was no more than a day's travel from where I started. Why the fuck do people panic at a day's travel? It's when fatigue, dehydration, unable to stay warm/dry set in..that's the hard times. You don't get that in just one day unless you do something stupid.

I'm not a heli pilot, but from what I read, they have to land somewhere the rotor blades can clear the trees. Seems kind of restrictive. So you have a clearing in mind somewhere dickhead? Or some new rule? (edit) I'm really liking this better, as I look on the maps...a lot of the clearings in the predicted areas have dirt roads either there or nearby. (edit) I don't know what the restrictions are: Can your heli pilot land anywhere? Or is this going to be "if no one says anything, it's cool"

I replied too quick about 12/30..see my post. above. Another date? (edit) I'm still wondering about clothes. details?

I can do it. I have two weeks off from work. Give me a phone number to verify the heli pilot. I still don't understand the game, or constraints. Do I get anything, on "winning" ? Or just the free heli ride? (edit) Actually it's Jan 1 I have to be back at work. We can move it up? Or wait for colder weather? Like I said 12 weeks advance notice would be my preference. Arranging travel before christmas is iffy? plus my kid is home for xmas, so I should stay around? (edit) if you tell me the heliport, and I call the pilot, I can start to get something about range and distance estimates, and start memorizing maps. (edit) Let's hear more details about constraints on me and what the detailed win/lose definition is. We can get feedback from others about what's good or bad in terms of an experiment. I just want to show you're a dickhead, so that part won't be hard. Actually now that I think of it, it's more of a personal motivation: if I can't do something like this, I'm pretty pathetic.

Okay, you're on. Set a date. Reserve the chopper (you're paying, remember) (I have no idea what helis will fly in winter and what won't? I'm assuming we're talking low elevations?) Dougan Falls is only 700 ft elevation. Are we mimicing some Cooper theory, or just trying to see if you can off me? You won't, because you're full of shit. You rent a chopper, I'll be there. (edit) To be fair, the main negative for me is not being in tip-top shape. Although I'm in fair shape so it's not like I'm going to drop dead. Ideally you give me 12 weeks lead time. But if we gotta go now. Okay. I'll cover my airfare to whatever airport you pick. You cover your travel to pick me up. Or I meet you at the helicopter. You pay in advance. I call and check with the pilot to make sure you're on the level. 377 can come if he wants to watch. (edit) Lake Merwin altitude is only 144 feet. Do I get any idea where we're going? Where do we meet? What am I allowed to wear/bring? Can I hide stuff on my body? I'm assuming that the "end" is when I post to the forum? I believe that any superficial injuries I receive don't count as failure? (is death the only failure or ???)

Okay, you're on. Set a date. Reserve the chopper (you're paying, remember) You won't, because you're full of shit. You rent a chopper, I'll be there.