snowmman

I keep getting LaPoint and Heady mixed up. I left Charles LaPoint, 23 out of my list for Jerry. (got him mixed up with Heady). Farflung can search the posts for LaPoint info. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=LaPoint&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=snowmman&sb=score&mh=25 Didn't LaPoint seem ballsier because he went with a DC-9? Everything said the door was more of a problem (less used) than the 727ers. LaPoint was the guy with cowboy boots, not Heady. Heady had the pillowcase over his head at Vegas. I've discussed LaPoint before. LaPoint jumped Jan 20, 1972, about 280 miles NE of Denver. Now there was snow on the ground but they found him before he had to spend the night. I discussed LaPoint's probable ground temps. He got a sprained left wrist and ankle on landing. But definitely: cowboy boots. (edit) so for SchlitzNGrins: Cooper, Heady, LaPoint, McNally, Hahneman, McCoy. (order not by date) They all died. Oh wait, none of them died. Except Cooper, supposedly. (edit) Pilot was Don Burkhard. First Officer Frank McDonald, stewardess Trudi Hunt. Both Burkhard and Hunt were from Seattle. Two Air Force F111's tailed the DC9. Homing devices in the chutes. They spotted him on the ground pretty easily. LaPoint asked for $50k in $10 and $20 bills, 3 parachutes and two crash helments.

1) Betting someone he can lead him somewhere, and that he can get out but the other guy can't. (if someone can get out, someone else can too) 2) Betting that snow makes it more difficult. Example: Fresh snow up to your waist makes travel really hard. But it means that you can't go in very far. Also means you leave an easy track for getting back out. Even if snow is falling, as long you you follow back within 24 hours, the trail is pretty obvious. 3) Only a dumbass would even dream of thinking someone is going to travel at night, when they don't know where they're going. Wait for the sun. You can see, travel with less energy and it's warmer! Always remember its warmer if you make it thru the night. And night rarely means more than 12 hours. 4) Only a dumbass would think he could outwit someone younger and in better shape. Okay, two guys go into the woods at night. They don't know each other. The one guy only told the other older guy his name was snowmman. Assume the older guy has a weapon. The older guy turns to leave. What happens? What's your resting pulse Jerry? I am totally out of shape. Let's compare though. If you don't think fitness has anything to do with survival, you're a dumbass. (edit) now for all non-dumbasses, the point is: it's difficult to construct the appropriate challenge, especially if you want to "match" Cooper in some way. But go ahead and keep trying. People want to emphasize the "not knowing where to go" part. But we can't agree on a starting point! If we agree on a starting point, then we can estimate travel time to humanity. If the belief is that you can't travel barefoot in the woods without dying, then maybe we start with that? Or is it that we don't believe Cooper's raincoat worked? Or that he didn't have it on the ground? Was Cooper fully naked on the ground? Do we start with that?

I was reading your description of what you considered difficult. It sounded like it would all happen in one night, since you mentioned dark. What's the longest number of days you've been lost: i.e. not known where you are? From the way you talk, I'm figuring 3-4? (edit) p.s. You like to imply I'm pathetic. I am totally reminded of how pathetic I am every time I read or respond to one of your posts. I should just slit my wrists and get it done quickly. Maybe I'm a cutter though and enjoy the slower pain? (edit) And just to put a point on what a dumbass you are, there's no way you can lead someone blindfolded in dense woods and go very far. It's like, dumb? How far do you think you can take someone blindfolded in the dark? Like a mile? maybe? on a trail?

Jerry, where did Cooper land again? I forgot.

it's already been done for TV Bear Grylls, Costa Rica jungle parachute jump http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7YA322rvE He did a similar thing up in Canada? Yukon?. Parachute in, ...a couple days to get out. Hey did you guys know Bear Grylls had a parachute accident in 1996, in Kenya. Broke his back in 3 places. I'm sure Jerry is going to spout about how Bear Grylls is a fake. While it is just TV, and he's got support, and some stuff is sort of faked, he's got a lot of balls. Jerry: how's your personal training philosophy compared to Bear's http://www.beargrylls.com/health.html

Gossett, Hahneman, Weber - There seems to be a common thread - we will call the Hijacker Syndrome. Do a line up with all of these guys - (actual and composites) what do you see. I am seeing some resemblances - but, everyone resembles someone else. Even the ears in the Hahneman sketch are not as large as his actual photo. His forehead is higher and in real life. They certainly did not have the tools available in 1970's they have now for composites. Yes. I guess it was kind of lucky they were able to get a drawing of Duane that matched him so well.

377, on hypothermia, said "Snow had a lot to say about this but I have forgotten what his conclusions were. I think he disagreed strongly with Jerry. " Don't need opinions. I posted the stats on hypothermia leading to death. Now you can argue the stats aren't higher because people are smart. Maybe. Remember we're talking Nov 25, 1971 in WA. With a jumper landing probably between Vancouver and south of all the woods. What's the problem again? Oh yeah, you have to rig the flight path to jump into Jerry's death woods. Well if you jumped into Death Valley in the summer, there would be hell to pay also. That would be far, far worse. (edit) Now if you're arguing Cooper jumped in the woods (like where the FBI said) and died..Oh sure maybe. Now if you're saying I couldn't jump in the woods there and survive..yeah that's different, and sure, part of the offer. I guess I have no idea what Jerry is really saying. I thought mostly "I know. You don't" ?? (edit) If the "bet" is: Jump in the FBI predicted DZ and survive, well hell, you're betting I can't find Lake Merwin?

offer still stands. I made a couple of offers. Cooper didn't have snow. I'll do anything you want in snow for another $750 a day.

Ok. And why did the other's survive? They had opposite answers to all the above you listed? Somehow I'm reminded of the North Vietnamese spec ops wearing loincloths crawling thru the only open space in the wire to attach SOG hq successfully: the latrine pit...while the officers felt confident their model of the world was right.

We talked about one documented case (I think around Boston?) where the airstair opened in flight. I found another (could be the same one?) What's interesting is how he describes the sensations in the plane. He says there was airframe vibration. Then he says the vibration diminished after a few seconds, but their climb rate was lessened. He also describes how they went to a lower altitude, depressurized, and then opened the rear door to reach out and tie the stair lever down, to prevent the stair from crashing down on landing (while being held by someone) He still noticed increased fuel burn with the stairs in the semi-deployed position, and changed landing plans. You can scroll back and forth reading pages in this book, to be confident it's a true account. Written by a guy flying 36 years. "Ace Abbott was born and raised in upstate New York, entered the U.S. Air Force in 1965 and became an F-4 Phantom pilot based in the Far East. He began his civilian career as a Learjet corporate/charter pilot, spending his last twenty-two years as a Boeing 727 captain. He retired in 2002 after visiting forty-four countries with fourteen different airlines." http://books.google.com/books?id=s0Ej4TvCY-wC&pg=PT149&dq=%22db+cooper%22&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=118#v=onepage&q=%22db%20cooper%22&f=false

It’s because Jerry WAS Hahneman (see photo). Maybe! I was wondering if Jo might say they arrested the wrong guy. How do we know that Duane didn't do multiple hijacks? I mean they didn't use DNA to prove they had the right guy. Remember they had tissues with sweat from the jumper they claim was Hahneman. Yet they were never produced at this trial. Why? The sketch sure looks like Duane. More so than Jerry.

377: every once and a while there's a reminder this is a jumper's site. "Hey did you hear about the 5 dudes who hijacked jets and jumped with money?" "No..square or round?"

This is just another mental exercise. I attached an (almost) side profile of Hahneman from when he was brought to the US. (not too long after hijack, I think it was a couple months) You can see the severely sloping forehead, which is not obvious in the sketch or forward photo. Can see he's a little short? And his nose looks bigger/different from the side. I wonder what happened to him? He got a life sentence. Wonder if he ever came up for parole, died or still in jail? (edit) Here's the problem I have with listening to Jerry. Jerry: what kind of model do you have that predicts survival for the jumps of Heady, Hahneman, McNally, and McCoy, but guarantees death for Cooper? There may be one, but it seems to require a lot of fine-tuning..i.e. more so than the precision of the variables we know.

This is just for comparison. A hijack/jump attempt by a mental guy. Billy Eugene Hurst. 22. 5'-8". 220 lbs. fork lift driver from Houston. Had two guns. Asked for parachutes, a rope, a machete, high-top hunting boots, and planned to jump over Latin America or South America. Had an issue with women. Said his bag had dynamite (didn't). had come from broken home, twice attempted suicide, and had been commited to a mental hospital. A passenger who worked for Remington shavers, was asked what his job was by Hurst. After telling, Hurst replied "I work for the devil and I'm going straight to hell and take everyone with me". Demanded $1 million (and two parachutes) Had .32 caliber pistol, and a .357 magnum and some .22 caliber bullets. Guns were not fired. He said the bag contained "seven" sticks of dynamite. He received all the stuff he asked for. Crew ran off when he put the gun down when he was inspecting the gear. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S3YfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5865,1267145&dq=hurst+hiijacker&hl=en Brown hair, brown mustache. Wanted to fly to Bogota. Plane was bright red 727. Braniff International. Allowed 94 passengers to leave. Seven crew members hostage for six hours. They left the plane at 9 pm. (so he hijacked around 3PM?) Said he had been smoking marijuana the day before. Supposedly had tried heroin. Former football player. but was "too short" ?? Had been in US Navy. Had received an "undesirable" discharge? Was wearing a dark blue pinstriped suit. Picture of him attached (from http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S3YfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5865,1267145&hl=en) Picture of police and the jet attached. dirty brown hair? rust red mustache? Claimed he had an I.Q. of 138 "I've got an IQ of 138." he told a stewardess. "This is the last day that I, Billy Eugene, am going to exist. Tomorrow, a new individual will be born". (edit) oh yeah, he passed a note to the stewardess also http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S3YfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5865,1267145&hl=en hand printed note supposedly said: "I have some demands I want met," .."Either you meet them or I'll kill everybody on the airplane"

yeah, the glasses are pretty interesting as you say. But also the suit and tie is interesting too as I said. Basically, the sketch (and the photo) remind us that a lot of Cooper stuff is not "unique"...i.e. glasses, tie, suit. It also reminds us of how much variance we should allow to the Cooper sketch..assuming they were both "state of the art" in '71-72. You could argue we should ignore all the common stuff like ties and glasses and suit and say "what is unique about Cooper?" I think his interactions and demeanor (compared to the other hijackers). Hahneman asked for a lot more stuff. He knew he was landing in the jungle. Cooper didn't. Isn't it logical that Cooper didn't plan on landing in the jungle? There's another guy who was mental. He was after Cooper. I'll post him. He asked for high topped boots. He hated women. What's interesting is he was before Hahneman and planned on jumping in South America. Wonder if Hahneman read about that case?

sure the sketch seems generic. (source of the pics are in the above posts) Yet it's not a Cooper sketch, which is supposed to be generic. The head shape is a good match. The mouth line is good. also, the lines of cheek/jowls. Neck seems good. The down pointing nose tip is good? Hahneman's ears actually jut more. The hairline is kind of wrong. But, good match? This is 1972 sketch technology/practice. (edit) I just updated it to make it a little bigger. (edit) Interesting: from the sketch, we can deduce that Hahneman was wearing a suit and tie when he hijacked. I wonder if he removed the tie? He had a jumpsuit. Maybe not?

I just noticed something in that article I linked above. a Hahneman sketch before they knew who he was! This is very cool, because it's interesting to compare to Hahneman's picture (I just posted a good one from Ebony above) and think about Cooper's sketch and what he really looked like. attached

looking back, I had already posted on this http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286604;search_string=Hahneman%3A%20another%20pic%2C%20more%20background;#3286604 I had gotten this from newspaper archives. Interesting the farmers remembered a lot, including the wiping of sweat with tissues!..But they didn't capture Hahneman till he turned himself in. "Farmers in the area told government agents they saw a man sitting on the ground counting money before he disappeared into the countryside. Said the man's shoulder and hands were injured. They found harness and jumpsuit at that time. They thought the parachute may have been carried away by poor farmers. The man carried a back pack and a small suitcase and wiped sweat off his face with tissues. See prior post for the list of items he requested during the hijack. Agents said they found used tissues in the area. " (edit) here's the reference in case you don't believe http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UNAhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_J4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6528,3353152&hl=en There are many other news reports that confirm. 377: here's one thing to remember when searching. Sometimes, you need info published before they knew the guy's name. So you can't just search on "Hahneman". That would only get stuff after they id'ed him. Interesting that they found the harness and jumpsuit, and knew he was injured, But they checked hospitals and clinics in the area, and produced no information on him. Could Duane Weber have been in Guatemala assisting on the ground?

W. L. Hendershott was captain of the Eastern Air Lines Boeing 727 that Hahneman jumped out of over Guatemala. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SQUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AOEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6316,1278490&dq=hijacker+guatemala&hl=en I've posted before on the list of stuff Hahneman requested and received (including the brand of cigarettes). I just realized that although he got jump suits and crash helmets, I don't remember a reference to shoes. (SchlitzNGrins: can you name the brand of cigarettes Hahneman asked for? Bonus: how many cigarettes did he get?) What kind of shoes did Hahneman have? Was he already wearing boots? He jumped into the jungle. Did he lose his shoes? Interesting question. Now we know Heady was wearing cowboy boots, right? (and he suffered injuries on landing). I've not read any reports of Hahneman being injured on landing, although they didn't capture him right away. He might have healed from any minor injuries. Might be interesting to find Hahneman's DZ. They started searching "from Puerto Cortes on the Caribbean coast, Santa Rosa de Copan in the west near Guatemala, and a village in the mountainous western area of Yoro" "..the best guess would be the man came down about 50 miles from the coast near Yoro in a heavily forested area" Actually now that I'm remembering, I thought I posted something about some locals who actually saw him soon after he landed?? not sure. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SQUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AOEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6316,1278490&dq=hijacker+guatemala&hl=en shoes, and jungle. hmmm.

Yeah, the Asia thing is interesting to ponder. You could even see it in Carr, the idea that "Vietnam doesn't matter"...I mean even now, people don't understand how you can get an age match with Vietnam war connection. (as a second example, Hahneman had Vietnam background, and was right age..49). (edit) Braden was another interesting turnup that showed how our thinking about Vietnam and age was biased. I'm still baffled by Carr's approach to all this. I mean a sensible person would lay out all the possibilities. If Cooper landed in the Columbia, wouldn't you want to talk about that possibility, in case some fisherman saw something back whenever? What kind of memories is Carr hoping to jog? I just can't see the thinking. (edit) Oh I'm reminded about how Carr just can't see how the stuff in the reports could be wrong about the possibility of the dredge. Another example of how people think they know how things work, but they don't (re dredge blades: size, rpm, and pump behavior and what can pass). Which baffles me, because as I noted (with pictures) ...I believe the same dredge used then, is still there at the Columbia. (edit) Or why do people suggest certain "facts" are wrong but not others? Tom Kaye felt very comfortable dismissing the geologist's information from 1980. If willing to dismiss that report, why not dismiss other reports? Why was the geologist wrong, but other stuff in the files right?

Jerry, if you go out into the woods again based on anything I've dug up, I'll surely rot in hell. Forget the cooper nonsense, and go out into the woods to have fun.

Look at this dingbat suspect the FBI investigated. It actually made all the papers back in 1975. The FBI agent actually hedged a bit in terms of saying they were pretty sure it wasn't him...like it took some time to figure out. Jerry Cooper was 30 at the time (1975) http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1347&dat=19750911&id=ZDETAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EPsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6330,2244946 Check out the funny quotes here: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xAoQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7281,1190262&dq=jerry-cooper+hijacking&hl=en "I'm almost 100 per cent sure that Mr. Cooper of Annandale is not D.B. Cooper the skyjacker," Michael A. Morrow, special agent in charge of the FBI's Alexandria, VA. office. "We have almost completely ruled him out"

I'm very interested

Weber was Cooper. Vote with your wallet. duaneweber@paypal.com No money goes to Jo Weber. All supports the cause. La verdad saldrá.

I was talking to Mueller, and he wanted status since we shitcanned Carr, and I tried to explain how motley a crew it is, except for that Sluggo guy... well, all I got is a new picture of Hahneman. From Ebony magazine, Nov, 1972. attached. I think this is different from some of the others I posted. from http://books.google.com/books?id=ntcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=%22hahneman%22+hijack&source=bl&ots=BU_AsPuzBn&sig=ANuUDd3wAgJzMVKqRgKTH-737Yg&hl=en&ei=sxAvS5rIC4K0sgPd66XGBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false