Belgian_Draft

My dad had a small business. I worked with him to build it. From a sweat equity point of view it was as much mine as it was his. But when he died and left it to me the government took such a big bite of it that i had to sell to pay what they wanted. Fuck Barney Frank and all his useless cronies. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

He got married because he had a choice to make. He could either pay somebody now to change his diaper....or get his brains banged out by a 24 year old hot piece of tail every time it needs changed and let her take what is left of his money when he is gone. I envy that old fart! HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Putting the Ho back into Ho-Ho-Ho ! http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40810232/ns/today-entertainment/ HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Many of the suppliers are non-union. The UAW has a hissy fit whenever an automaker buys from a non-union supplier. They would NEVER allow them to operate in the same building. The time is long past for the unions to scale back to looking out for worker health, safety, and reasonable wages and stop telling the companies who they can and can't do business with. Congratulations. An average person with a high school education can be taught, in less than a month, to assemble, setup, and operate an ArcMate. It isn't that difficult. Maybe there some other reason you were among the highest paid? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

We are talking about POI, not stringing. Different subject. But you know that. People will make and sell any item or service they can convince people will make them shoot better. Shooting suppliers are no different than golf pro shops. It is obvious we are of different opinions. Fair enough. I hope your methods have worked as well for you as mine have for me. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Where's the pointing error when it's clamped in a vice, pray tell? You are still missing the entire point. Since a shotgun is pointed, not aimed, clamping it in a vice to see if the POI and POA are the same is meaningless. It means nothing. It is akin to sighting in a rifle and then being concerned because the bullet doesn't hit where you point the gun without aiming. The vast majority of shooters spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars looking for the one little thing that will instantly take them from busting 90/100 to 100/100 when the whole time the real "secret" is right in front of them. All it takes is a lot of time practicing good form and technique with a gun that shoots where it is pointed, nothing more. If a trapgun shoots 3" from where it looks like it should at 60' it means nothing as long as it shoots where it is pointed. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Like something that would cause a action clamped in a vice to shoot 3" off axis, perhaps? Appeal to authority. I'm betting if you clamped that BT-99 in a vice, it wouldn't be shooting 3" off bore at 20 yards, either. I have no idea if it would or not. But since it was a gun that was mass produced in Japan I would be shocked if it hit within 3" of POA. I merely fired at a paper target by pointing the shotgun, then adjusted the stock until it hit where I was pointing it. You are still debating under the assumption that POA matters. It does not. The only thing that matter is if it hits where it is being POINTED. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

No not really, in the original post I said that I was working on the stock. From experience mounting a shotgun I know where it's going to shoot. If after reworking the stock and calmly mounting the shotgun it's point of impact isn't where I'm pointing then their is a problem. If after mounting a sight (albeit a drilled tube perfectly aligned with the barrel) and mounting the shotgun in a vice it still dosen't hit the center of the target on the horizintal plane then the shotgun has a problem. When a shotgun fits the shooter the point of aim and the point of impact should correspond to shooters configuration of the stock My whole point is that there is no point-of-aim when using a shotgun properly. They are not aimed. If the gun fits the shooter properly the gun will shoot where the shooter is looking/pointing, unless there is a major fault in the weapon that causes it to shoot nowhere close to where the barrel is pointing such as a severely bent barrel, etc. But what the hell do i know. All i ever did was break 399/400 singles and 100/100 handicap in the same day using an off the shelf BT-99. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

If you are truly pointing the gun then POI v. POA with the gun held in a vice-like device is moot. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

There's a *physical* problem with the gun, not the shooter. Ok, we agree on that. So, how do we get the POA and POI aligned? We shift POA...if you shoot a shotgun like a rifle. Or are turkey hunting. But a trap gun is not aimed. It is pointed. Most good trap shooters would not drop a single bird from their score if the bead(s) were removed from their gun. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Which, of course, is why the serious shooters just install an offset bead instead of getting a fitted stock. You mention a rifle, above - would you tell a rifle shooter to just crank in some windage to center the group from a stringing barrel, or would you tell him to float the barrel and bed the action? I understand your point, but the quick fix isn't necessarily the best one. If the problem were stock fit it would have been corrected by adjustments to the stock. But those didin't help. Since that is the case I would assume the shooter is aiming the shotgun like a rifle. That is, he is sighting along the rib and using the bead as a font sight. If that is the case then all the stock adjuctments in the world will do no good. POI must be corrected the same as you would a rifle....by moving the front sight, the rib, or bending the barrel. Since the error is very small an offset bead is the correct way to go. Sometimes the correct way acually IS quick and easy. After all, you wouldn't sight in a rifle by bending the barrel, would you? If the shooter were checking to see if the gun was shooting where he was pointing it, which is the proper way to check POI on a trap gun, adjustments to the stock would have corrected the POI. An error in POI is not the same as causes of stringing in a rifle and therefor are not corrected the same way. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

3" @ 20 yds? Really? Are you kidding me? It's a trap gun, not a rifle. Three inches can be the difference between a hit and a miss. There's a *reason* why serious shotgunners pay for custom built or adjustable stocks. Yes, three inches can be the difference between a hit or a miss. However, rare is the person who would ever notice a difference in their scores on the trap field. Before worrying about a 3" error in POI there are other, far more important, things to consider. Is the gun throwing a good pattern with no gaping holes? Can it do so with different loads? Is the action tight? Is the trigger crisp with a consistent pull? Only after all that is taken care of should a very small error in impact be addressed. More times than I can count I have watched a good shooter with an off the shelf Winchester, Remington, Browning, etc. trap gun with beat up on $20,000 custom trap guns. Can 3" cause a miss? Absolutely. But if that 3" causes miss, there are much more serious problems with the gun and/or technique that need to be resolved before the shooter/gun combo will ever be a threat to win The Grand. Again, if it that big of a concern, an offset bead will eliminate the small error. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

3" @ 20 yds? Really? Are you kidding me? It's a trap gun, not a rifle. If you are that concerned about it then do as I always did to fine tune the point of impact on my turkey guns. Use an offset front bead. I used to make my own from capscrews. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Except drunken sailors, and sober ones, stop spending when they run out of money. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Once again we see that without the handiwork of the Divine Creator human beings could not have been formed between the goo and the zoo. Looks like NASA is going to need new funding to examine the mysteries of God. Please present one factual piece of evidence to back your claim. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

What part of "Our society has seen fit, with good reason, to place limits on that right" don't you understand? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Not specifically, no. But talking and communicating is. And we have placed restrictions on those liberties. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Why would it be true? Because some dead guy said it 200 years ago? We all give up "essential liberty" in exchange for temporary safety as well as other considerations. We do not have the liberty to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre and in return we have the safety of probably never being trampled to death because of it. Yelling fire in a theater is an essential liberty? Using your physical ability to speak is a right and liberty we are all born with. Our society has seen fit, with good reason, to place limits on that right. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Why would it be true? Because some dead guy said it 200 years ago? We all give up "essential liberty" in exchange for temporary safety as well as other considerations. We do not have the liberty to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre and in return we have the safety of probably never being trampled to death because of it. We gave up the liberty of using whatever manufacturing processes we want in exchange for the safety of a cleaner, healthier environment. Though I agree with the OP, I do not agree with the quote from BF. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

Agreed. Our involvement in SE Asia escalated during his years while he had every opportunity to get us the hell out. Wars are best averted at the beginning. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Home sick from school, watching teevee in the living room when Walter Cronkite came on and said that the President had been shot. I went with my father to his office three (?) days later, and over the radio came the news that Oswald had been shot as well. Each was rather a paradigm shift, where "after" was significantly different from "before." BSBD, Winsor IIRC Kennedy was assassinated on a Friday and we watched Oswald get shot on live TV on Sunday, the 24th. I was also in an elementary school class and the teacher began crying, and it took her a while to compose herself. I still wonder what the world would be like now had he not been assasinated that day. I know my life would have been far different because I doubt I would have lost those I did in SE Asia Don't be so sure. Kennedy was, after all, the dumb SOB who got us involved in that mess to begin with and wouldn't pull our troops out for "political considerations". HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

+1 HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Yes. It is a feel-good measure and nothing more. Even at 200K+ the Presidents salary is a token jesture compared to what they make from other sources. Reducing that salary will have extremely little effect on the President but people who think his salary is to high will feel better...myself included. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You are comparing apples to donuts. Very few CEO's make millions from book deals and speaking engagements after leaving office. Regardless of whether you agree with that point, you still assumed something far beyond my intent and beliefs. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.