FallingOsh

Wait wait wait.... You mean to tell me that even though 1% of the population pays roughly 18% of all income tax and nearly 30% of all federal taxes, they don't want to support the population further by adding universal healthcare??? Those assholes!! From factcheck "The share now borne by the top 1 percent is the highest it has been since 1979, the earliest year for which CBO has figures" -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

The military budget was just over $500B. Add in emergency war appropriations, homeland security, and the rest of DOD's budget to get your number. I still fail to see your point. We have been adding debt for 30 years so we should just keep doing it with no plan to offset cost? Ok. Correlate how we're going to pay for the proposals. Abolishing the military is not a viable answer, not would it come close to covering the cost. Which, again, is my point. "That's the way it is" is not an acceptable answer. Find a way to pay for it. Find a way to balance the current budget before throwing on a few trillion more. It's not rocket surgery. Maybe, but it has lots of relevance on whether it should. What benefit is there if the cost bankrupts the country? The best we can hope for should be a balanced budget. If the best we can hope for becomes deficit and tax increases then the bill shouldn't even be considered. You're right about that. Which is why politics and government shouldn't be involved in healthcare. It's all about politics and not about well-being. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

That's why I said I'm not judging or even saying that's right or wrong. It's just a concern. Maybe I chose my words poorly. I was thinking along the lines of D-Day. It will happen eventually. We will need to send the military somewhere eventually. A guerilla uprising in the event of a military like china's occupation? That would be scary. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

The military budget is roughly $500B a year. In order to save $5T over 10 years you would have to completely abolish the military. Reducing the size of the military is certainly a viable argument. Abolishing it is not. If the military is reduced to 'defense only' then there will be no more discussion on foreign aid or helping suffering people around the world. Some might be ok with that. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying we won't have the assets to help when needed. No more Tsunami releaf or pirate killin or anything like that. 'Defense only' also means we won't be prepared for an offensive when it's needed. That would probably mean reinstatement of the draft. I'm sure everyone would be thrilled by that. We won't even talk about how many jobs would be cut. Abolishing the military could be a whole thread by itself so I'll move on. Just for grins, we'll say cutting the military would save $500B a year. That wouldn't even cover 1/3 of this year's projected deficit. That, obviously, is without a healthcare plan. Agreed that many inefficiencies need to be fixed. I would argue that most inefficiencies are a result of government intervention. Further involving the government in healthcare can only complicate things more. Obama's plan does nothing about tort reform anyway. Your question is irrelevant. Nearly 30 years of history show that even with spending increases taxes will decrease on the low earning half (or more) of the population. That's my point and consequently why my question is relevant. History has provided a tax system that doesn't cover our expenses. If it doesn't cover the expenses now then it certainly won't support a universal healthcare plan. Is someone willing to change what history has done thusfar? The charts and citations are great, but don't do anything to address the problem. I don't care what President did what. The point is that the counties who fund universal healthcare have a more evenly distributed tax system. More people paying more. Our country chooses to push the taxes uphill as much as possible. My question is whether or not the population is willing to take on more taxes to help fund the program or do they just want to push it on the upper class. The data you provided says less and less people pay taxes. That suggests that our expenses will never be covered, especially with new spending. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

+1 Currently, a majority of Americans oppose Obama's healthcare reform (albeit a small margin). Simple passage of the bill wouldn't make anyone toast. Rushing another massive spending bill through congress just because "we won" and they can will be nothing but helpful for the right. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

So . . . kissing and holding hands is ok, but a nod of the head isn't? OK! Got it! I'll just put you down in the holding hands and kissing category and be done with that. * Touching, long handshakes, grasped elbows, even walking hand in hand by two males is common place in the Arab world. A considerable number of Arabs touch more between the same sex, to show liking–not sex. They hold hands, hug each other, kiss if close friends. As Arab customs and behavior condones the outward display of affection between male friends, one may see Arab men, even officials and military officers, holding hands as they walk together or otherwise converse with one another. If an individual Arab does not touch you, he does not like you–or he may be trying to restrain himself because you are not used to being touched. A full body embrace, accompanied with hugging, should not be initiated until you are sure that the Arab is a close friend. If the Arab initiates it, participate and consider yourself honored and/or accepted. Contact between the opposite sex in public is considered close to obscene. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It didn't work in Mass, Hawaii, or Oregon. Tell me how we'll adopt Finland's policies and we'll go from there. In Oregon did it last even a year? Hawaii didn't last a year. Oregon lasted about 10 before new enrollment was closed and a lottery was opened to select who would be allowed in. Lottery for health care. Awesome. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It didn't work in Mass, Hawaii, or Oregon. Tell me how we'll adopt Finland's policies and we'll go from there. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

America has the most or second most progressive income tax out of the entire OECD. Looking at the ratio of tax percentage to income percentage in the top decile we're ahead of Ireland, Italy, Australia, the UK, New Zealand, Canada, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, Germany, Finland, the Slovak Republic, Luxembouorg, Belgium, Austria, Jorean, Poland, Japan, Norway, France, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, and Switzerland. http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23856.html And it doesn't cover our budget now. Not by $1.7T. How are we going to add universal healthcare to that? I don't know if it was intentional, but you've pretty well proven my point. The tax burden is more evenly distributed in all of those countries. More people pay a higher percentage. In our country, and especially with the dems, the budget burden is continually pushed on a smaller percentage of the population. My question is how far do people want to push it? Are they willing to increase taxes for the entire population to fund universal healthcare or do they just want to continue pushing it up the chain? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It's nice in theory but history has shown it doesn't work that way. Someone who is making enough money to afford supplemental insurance is already paying out the ass in taxes to provide the universal healthcare. Why should they have to pay twice? The answer is they won't. It's exactly what happened in Hawaii. People who had insurance dropped it in order to take advantage of the free, "government provided" child care. The program went tits up in 7 months. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

How much are we taxed to get police and fire protection? Health care is not an optional experience, any more than personal protection. Socializing basic human needs doesn't make us communists I figured you would completely avoid answering the question. "We" are not taxed to provide police and fire. The top earners in the country are taxed to provide for the rest of the population. How much do you intend to tax them to provide for health care? How much do countries with universal health care tax the population and is the burden only on top earners? Do you have any citations that wait time would decrease as you previsously claimed? Again, arguments like "there was a war" and "there are police" do nothing to promote a reasonable solution. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

http://www.wikihow.com/Brew-Your-Own-Beer -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

How much are people taxed in those countries? Does everyone in the population pay taxes or are 40% exempt? Does a small percentage pay for it while everyone reaps the benefits? Not if you have insurance. Depends on where you go. Never been a big issue for me, especially in the event of a major emergency. Do you think universal health care would change wait times? Explain how increasing the amount of patients will do that. Not if you have insurance. Because nobody has presented an idea that is even remotely close to reasonable. 'How are we going to pay for it' is just the first major question. Present something reasonable besides "well, canada does it" and maybe we'd get somewhere. The word doesn't mean shit. It's the fact that our tax burden lies on a small percentage of the population. You want to tax businesses and the wealthy into bankruptcy for the benefit of those who contribute nothing. Talk about a fair tax across the board where everyone contributes and maybe a proposal where everyone benefits will be more reasonable. Ok. How do you intend to pay for it? If we're not afraid to spend the money then where is it going to come from? More taxes for the wealthy? I guess they're only at, what, 36% now? We should be able to squeeze at least 10 more percent out of them before considering making others in society contribute. Arguments like 'there was a war in Iraq' are why the health care plan doesnt go anywhere. There are no reasonable proposals. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Is it killing you that the more interviews she has, the more and more she's trying to sound like Roberts, Thomas and Scalia? She was obviously extremely well prepped, and is saying pretty much exactly what she thinks people want to hear in order to confirm her. Whether she actually believes those things, or will act like that once on the court, I have my doubts. There have been several justices over the years whose behavior once on the SC surprised people, and usually dismayed their proponents. Souter is just the most recent example. So there's still hope she'll just rubber stamp crazy left wing philosophy once she gets in? thank goodness - I was a bit worried And it'll be perfectly acceptable since the time tested argument "they did it too" is working overtime lately. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Agreed, but in BOTH cases the situation would probably be the same ... self serving people (population/politicians) voting for what's best for them. Politicians can be voted out of office if they don't represent their region properly. You can't vote the dumb or lazy out of the public. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Yeah, that's nonsense, all right. UAV's are recon assets, not interceptors. Now. UAV interceptors have superior performance potential since no pilot to pass out leads to better maneuverability, computer control of one takes human reaction time out of the equation, and multiples can coordinate. UAVs moving from recon + ground attack to aerial interception is a big marketing hurdle but reasonable technically. You think we have fully automated UAV's capable of aerial intercepts and fights? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

First off, the debt hasn't quadrupled - it hit a trillion this month in a year that ends in October. But that's rather irrelevant - either we need this spending to recover, or we don't. The real concern is what about 2 years from now. I said deficit, not debt. The deficit has quadroupled. 2 years from now, even if the economy does recover by then, inflation from billions in "stimulus" will be around to deal with. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

That was my point. I don't understand why Kallend feels it necessary to keep bringing up Reagan. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It's ok - he's a Dem, and Dems can do no wrong Well, they've certainly been outspent by the GOP up to this point. So your response to all of this is "well the GOP spent money too?" No, my response was (and still is): "Your conversion to fiscal conservatism, although late, is admirable." The Republicans' attitude to Obama's spending is rather like their attitude to sexual peccadillos - "do as I say and not as I do." Fact is, under Reagan the debt nearly TRIPLED. So? Does that make it ok to quadrouple the deficit in one year? Why does Reagan's spending have anything to do with Obama's? If you don't care about fiscal responsibility (which I guess you don't since there haven't been any comments condemning Obama) then why do you suddenly care about spending policies from from 20 years ago? If you're unwilling to condemn the spending of this administration then you're no better than those who "suddenly became fiscally conservatice." -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Agreed. The representatives in Washington don't even read what they're often voting on. Leaving it up to the general public to read 1000 page bills and vote with any amount of understanding is wishful thinking. OTOH, if the reps in washington aren't reading them then I guess it wouldnt change much. I think Adam's point would be amplified. People would vote on bills based on what's best for them and not what's best for the country thereby fucking everyone else up. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It's ok - he's a Dem, and Dems can do no wrong Well, they've certainly been outspent by the GOP up to this point. So your response to all of this is "well the GOP spent money too?" -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Are you claiming the tax code is just a figment of his imagination? I know lots of people who don't make enough to pay income tax. What does that have to do with anything? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

One year ago today the average price of gasoline was $4.12/gal. Today it is $2.61 One year ago today the $US was worth .634Euro Today the $US is worth .709Euro One year ago today the $US was worth .507 UK pounds Today the $US is worth .607 UK pounds Looks like namgrunt is just plain WRONG. If the wrong things aren't Obama's fault then the positive things aren't his doing either. I assume you'll be thanking Bush for all of those improvements. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

But those who speak condescendingly with smug remarks are very convincing in their defense of the elitist left. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

yeah, we should've sent in some nijas or maybe Chuck Norris to take out Saddam in the middle of the night. The resulting power grab and possible complete collapse of government wouldn't have even been a concern. So you agree Saddam had to be stopped, you just think your covert operation was the best way to go? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.