FallingOsh

You want to talk about grades at school, eh? Wasn't Bush the very last in his class at the academy or something? Or wait... I think that was McCaine. Gosh, I dunno... I just can't keep track anymore! Yep. Here we go. Anything to divert attention from the truth of the discussion at hand. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

I never voted for Bush (who funded a 3-trillion dollar war with my money for his own forced morality). The cost of both wars combined since 2001 is about $900B. Slightly less than the cost of the healthcare bill we should pass "in Teddy's memory." Slightly more than the stimulus we had to pass immediately earlier this year. 3-trillion is the projected deficit over the first year and half of Obama's presidency. If you judge the cost of a war mostly in monetary terms, and not in human terms, you've failed to judge the cost of the war. Is that some kind of cover for overstating the cost of the war by more than three fold? Are you putting a price on each life to somehow arrive at 3-trillion dollars? I agree with your statement. However, I was correcting the previous claim, not starting a discussion on the moral cost of a war. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Bought one of those for my wife. A little rough in the machining but a few hundred rounds smoothed it out pretty nice. Fun to shoot. Probably wouldn't do much but scare off an attacker, which is good enough I guess. I keep a Beretta 92FS close. Not too heavy but has some girth to it. Very easy to take apart and clean. Several safety features I like. Very pleased with the purchase. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

-------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

I never voted for Bush (who funded a 3-trillion dollar war with my money for his own forced morality). The cost of both wars combined since 2001 is about $900B. Slightly less than the cost of the healthcare bill we should pass "in Teddy's memory." Slightly more than the stimulus we had to pass immediately earlier this year. 3-trillion is the projected deficit over the first year and half of Obama's presidency. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

I assume you'll want the government to pick up the community programs and charities. You think it's a good thing churches are going away, why? Because Christians have caused you and this country so much harm or just because you don't agree with their beliefs? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Would you be in support of expanding the military so that private organizations aren't needed? Keep in mind that eliminating all contractors would require quite a few (to put it mildly) military members. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

At least he only got a bj rather than lie about an unnecessary war. "Yeah, he only lied. That's better than lying." -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

I told you I was gone for the weekend. Sorry for upsetting you. You've refused to accept anything other than what you think happened (which you still haven't posted what you think happened or why you think that) so the conversation is apparently over. The military posted an official position with comments from the actual pilot involved. You don't believe them. You've made claim after rediculous claim involving everything from air-to-ground radar to flare techniques that prove how little you know and how little you're willing to research the subject. If you can come up with one suggestion (not even evidence, just a suggestion) that the lights were anything other than what has been stated then the conversation can continue. Otherwise, good luck with school. Don't forget your foil hat. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Bill, for the first time in a long time you and I are on the same page. Chasteh: I'm leaving town for the weekend. We'll pick it up again later. The statement by the Lt Col said they dumped their leftover flares when leaving the range. Therefore, the altitude is irrelevant. On a second note, dropping from that altitude is not uncommon. I don't think they were seen over the South Mountain I was talking about. That's why I said the coordinates you posted cleared up some of the confusion. There are two south mountains and we were talking about different places. The south mountain you listed actually proves my point further. The ranges are in line of sight from Phoenix over south mountain. There is no footage looking straight up from south mountain showing the flares directly over the mountain. All of the footage is looking from phoenix, over south mountain, into the restricted ranges. see you monday -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Why do you think they weren't seen from those other cities? Couldn't it be that it just wasn't reported to the authorities and put on youtube because the people of gila bend are used to it. Flares are dropped all the time. Why would they be so surprised to see it again? I'm not being inconsistent at all. The recent lights were said to be from F-16's. The 1997 lights and the Lt Col who talked about it from Maryland were A-10's. Here's the site since I know you wont take the time to look it up. http://www.175wg.ang.af.mil/ Try making it even possible it wasn't flares, please. Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. You've been talking about South Mountain Park. I've been talking about South Mountain. 32.001096, 112.0830 That would explain some of the confusion. It would also explain a lot as far as the flares; a lot. You saw the flares in the direction of south mountain park(over south mountain, not at south mountain). Draw a line from Phoenix/Tempe through the coordinates you gave me for about 50-60 miles. Almost dead center of R-2304. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

So if there was a giant v shaped ship in the area, don't you think he would've mentioned that? Yes, I know the dates are different. My point is that lights seen from phoenix are not uncommon. The maryland air national guard is A-10's. Dude, seriously... Google.com...less than a second returns to keep some of these left field comments down. Yes. Look at that evidence. More flares. Same area. Same explanation. Different jets. South Mountain is over 100 miles from Phoenix. What do you consider FAR FAR outside Phoenix? The video from 1997 also doesn't leave evidence those lights were over south mountain. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Never said they weren't. Never implied they weren't. They're very aware of all jets and activities. Not sure what your point is. You don't think a giant v-shaped craft flying across phoenix would show up on radar? Here's recent video of mysterious lights over phoenix. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=92e_1208872160 Here's one that says the FAA commented that F-16's were in the area practicing with flares. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b5ba9fd369 A report about one of the actual pilots on the 1997 mission: Air National Guard pilot, Lt. Col. Ed Jones, responding to a March 2007 media query, confirmed that he had flown one of the aircraft in the formation that dropped flares on the night in question.[23] The squadron to which he belonged was in fact in Arizona on a training exercise at the time, according to the Maryland Air National Guard. A history of the Maryland Air National Guard published in 2000 previously asserted that the squadron, the 104th Fighter Squadron, was responsible for the incident.[25] The first reports that members of the Maryland Air National Guard were responsible for the incident were published in The Arizona Republic newspaper in July 1997.[26] -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

And comments like these are exactly why the conversation is over. Keep believing it's a government cover up. No skin off my back. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Here's an attached picture of the MOA's. So far you've been wrong about: LUU-2's self-protection flares the use of illumination flares The ranges Air-to-ground radar the lightning pod night vision goggles the hud the MOA over south mntn. Explain again how you've proven or disproven anything. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

You guys are wasting your time trying to use proof and logic. He believes what he believes and nothing else. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Ok. You obviously have no desire to talk about this logically. You have no citations or suggestions of your own. The addition of "Jack" and "oops" and "crap" just show you've been backed into a corner without anything productive to share. You're right. It wasn't the military. It was something else entirely. What, you have no idea. How, you have no idea. Whom, you have no idea. But it definitely wasn't the military. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Where did you read that the flares were over south mountain? There is military airspace over south mountain. Not for dropping flares, but there is military airspace. Yes. Really. Yes. And it has nothing at all to do with air to ground radar. Which also has nothing to do with an air to ground radar. A: Not all A-10's carry a pod. B: The pod was not integrated into the A-10 until years after the 1997 lights So you're saying that fighter do not drop flares to aid in night bombing? I just want to clarify that little gem. Again, where was it shown that they were over south mountain? You haven't negated anything. You haven't even challenged it with any amount of reason. It was explained. It can be explained. I can be reproduced. It was reproduced. You have provided nothing to suggest it was anything other than flares. Again, where did you read that they were over south mountain. South mountain is nearly 100 miles away from Phoenix. You think you could spot a plane of any size 100 miles away? Besides the fact that jets drop flares there all the time. Besides the fact you can see the flares descending in the video. Besides the fact that you can see new flares lighting as the others burn out. Besides the fact that the AF reproduced it. Yeah, besides all that I have nothing. You haven't said anything. I'm ready to listen. Write a reasonable (or even an unreasonable) explanation and I'll read it. How? By saying 'oops.' I'm not saying you didn't see it. I'm saying you refuse to believe the logical explanation for what you saw. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It's dark. You do realize it was night, right? Why would you assume they are anything other than flares on a known range where flares are used? Wow. You really have zero clue what you're balbbering on about. The A-10 has no air to ground radar. Night vision still requires light to work. Explain to me how a HUD makes things visible on the ground. Ok. So you should know where the ranges are. Military airspace covers that entire area. Ranges are on all sides. Where did you read the flares were over south mountain? Oops, what? You saw two sets of flares over the same ranges? The two possible explanations are: 1. The lights seen were a common flare used by jets that frequently (daily) use those areas. It was explained and reproduced by the Air Force 2. It's a giant cover up to hidden technology or a visit from space aliens. You have done nothing to even remotely approach a convincing argument that the whole situation was not a simple (and reproducable) misunderstanding by some people with video cameras. You're refusing to accept a perfectly reasonable explanation in exchange for aliens or government cover ups. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

If you watched the video I posted then you can see new flares lighting at a higher altitude than flares already burning. Um, no. They're designed to illuminate the ground so the pilots can see what they're attacking. They're not protection flares. They're "you're about to get shot up" flares. Yes they were. I'm not going to Google everything for you. Do a little research on your own. You finally got something right. They are not self-protection flares. They are illumination flares. Illumination flares designed to float under canopy to provide light. Light on a range that can be seen from Phoenix. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Where did you get ten minutes? I read they were seen for close to two hours. Oddly enough, that's about how long an aircraft would be on the ranges. The video clearly shows a varying number of flares with new ones being lit at a higher altitude than the other flares. The jets were dropping new ones as the old ones burned out. The varying altitudes of flares creates what appears to be a circle shaped "craft." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Y5RjhOThM&feature=related That's what they're designed to do. They wouldn't do much good for the pilot if they floated away. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

How "many" ? What percentage of people will leave a (paid) private plan for a free public plan? I don't think that anyone (not even the President) can answer that question, or foresee the consequences. We can all speculate, but that's about all it is--speculation. Why would people, especially those hurting financially, choose to continue paying when it could be free? I don't know why the Hawaii failure is still being overlooked. http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/healthcare-failure/ -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

LUU-2's actually. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/luu2.htm Think about a string of flares all burning out within a second of each other and falling from their canopy. Might look like they were flying away from you in formation, wouldn't it? Extremely common with night military flights as explained here: The United States Air Force (USAF) identified the second group of lights as flares dropped by A-10 Warthog aircraft which were on training exercises at the Barry Goldwater Range in southwest Arizona. Witnesses claim to have observed a huge carpenter's square-shaped UFO, containing lights or possibly light-emitting engines. Fife Symington[6], the governor at the time, was one witness to this incident. Go look up the location of the Barry Goldwater Range and let us know how it's situated in relation to Phoenix and Tucson. An analysis of the luminosity of LUU-2B/B illumination flares, the type which would have been in use by A-10 aircraft at the time, determined that the luminosity of such flares at a range of approximately 50–70 miles would fall well within the range of the lights viewed from Phoenix. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Here's word for word what you said. "But that's OK, you can continue to discredit an ENTIRE SYSTEM OF HEALTH CARE DELIVERY on one 'inaccurately portaryed' case. If you want to. " That implies this is the only case of a waiting list that any of us has heard. I wasn't reading into anything. They were your words. Again with the "one persons experience..." If you think all of this resistance to government healthcare is because millions of Americans read one person's experience then you're completely out to lunch. I'm entitled to your wrong opinion? No thanks. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Last I heard, Congress gets to approve Bills, not AARP. What part of "Obama said AARP was on board - AARP says they're not" (paraphrased) was it that tripped you up? What part of "the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved (sic) the bill" don't you understand? So you're claiming that the head of the AARP just politely informed Orielly they hadn't approved any bills into law? You're just choosing to ignore the issue when I'm fairly certain you know exactly what he was saying. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.