Ron

Yes, but you told a guy with 100 jumps he would be fine under a certain canopy...And after he broke his leg it seems you were wrong. Maybe I get told that cause I actually say something they don't want to hear and you tell them only what they want to hear. And if I remember correctly you told me I had no idea what I was talking about back then....Of course it turned out you didn't really know the size of the canopy. So in this case it was YOU telling me I had no clue, and YOU were wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Dumb analogy. A car does not have to be driven at a high speed. It CAN, but it also can do 1 MPH. A small canopy NEEDS speed. And you took the persons advice as law? You didn't ask your INSTRUCTORS? I went to the Chevy dealership. They told me I needed the Z06 Corvette. I didn't buy it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Trying to do my part...It gets old people with 100 jumps telling me I have no clue about skydiving since I dont' know them and their skills. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not hard core. I didn't have an alti for 600+ jumps. After a while you can read the ground by sight. Its a valuble skill I'd suggest you try and develop by looking at the ground on the ride up and quessing then checking by looking at your alti. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It didn't need it..But most debates on here are things that didn't need to happen and how one or more folks just didn't get the overall concept or wanted to try and debunk a theory using special cases. If we took that away there would only be Talkback and who is doin the sheep. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know, but since most jumpers are within 50 pounds of each other the weight portion of the BC equation is the least important. BC is the ratio of weight to drag. In the exit question it is about how much drag is evident that makes the difference. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Odds are that they will save you before they kill you. John said it best about a multi leveled approach to not dying. I think it should be in this order. 1. Risk assesment. Don't do stupid things. 2. Proper procedures. Know them, practice them. 3. Proper equipment selection and maintenance. Jump canopies that open reliably and both canopies should be a a WL that is reasonable for your experience. 4. Back ups. AAD's RSL's. #4 is a PASSIVE way to save your ass. The focus should be on the first three and never to allow an RSL or AAD to allow you to skimp on the top three. Also most accidents could have been stopped long before they got to #4 if the top three were done. I like AAD's..But I don't like how some skimp on the top three because they have that "ace in the hole". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I work for FedEx still. Fix the lost airbill problem by putting the address INSIDE the box as well. If a package looses an AWB it goes to a recovery area. They open the box and look for an address inside the box from a packing slip, or invoice. If there is no address they record the contents of the box and wait for a complaint call. They then try to match the contents to the claim. On some really out there things...Rare types of shipments they start making calls to the producers on the product. An easy way to save the trouble is just drop an address INSIDE the box as well. In this case, call the hotel and make sure they will hold it. Most good hotels have no problem and a few will put it into your room for you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

With weights the same the result would still be the same. It's drag that matters, not weight. If you jump out of a plane and stay flat, dumb, and happy, you wil reach a speed of about 120 MPH correct? If you jump out of the same plane wearing the same jump suit, but go head down you will fall faster correct? So the only thing that changed was your amount of drag or BC. Take a big ballon suit from the 70's and go flat...Will you fall faster in it, or a tight comp RW suit? Again only the BC changes, your weight didn't. Most skydivers are around the same weight, and since these "experiments" have show that DRAG is the major factor weight is not important. The analogy is good. Its only people who do not understand how drag is the important factor that think weight matters. Do you think that a dart and a birdy of the same weight will change the outcome? It would take a VERY heavy shuttlecock to go the same distance with the same amount of input....A difference that would nto relate to skydivers. It would be like a 1,000 pound RW jumper vs a normal weight VRW guy. The terms birdy and shuttle cock have been used plenty in this discussion. If people want to understand the concepts, they can google the term if they don't know it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It would help if you attached the sheet or the calc....Or maybe just said what you wanted it to do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I like City Hall "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It allows the risers to spread a bit. This allows the canopy to flatten out some. Lift is generated directly in the opposite direction from the surface. So if the canopy has a sharp bow in it some of the lift is wasted by going out insted of up. Buy flattening out, more lift is supposed to be available. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Control inputs will differ depending on the type of canopy you have and if you are up wind or down wind. Do a search for "Magic Spot" and see what you get. It is a useful tool to give you an idea on where you are going to land and what inputs help or hurt your glide ratio. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The analogy was good since 99% of the people would have been satisfied given it. Because if a person asked which it was Mass or Drag that caused the change? You would have to explain BC. Which takes into account both mass and drag. Since most skydivers are close to the same weight all you really need to answer is drag. And the shuttle cock vs dart did that quite well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but all of your examples have nothing to do with the topic here, and people have taken the "wrong science" and been wrong from both camps. Thats true. Its based on time exposed to the winds aloft. A freeflier that has a freefall of 45 seconds will drift less than a flat flyer that is exposed for 1:20. It is the best model you have. You can claim that flat fliers will funnel...OK, but freefliers cork. You take a good freefly group and they penetrate much more into the hill than an expereinced 4way team that almost floats on exit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True, but I think the result would be the same, if only less obvious. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is a damn good answer "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OHHH, 10 push ups!. Stop it your scaring me I say, show up wearing your jumpsuit with a pair of goggles on and a light coat of CLP asking where the boogie registraition is. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Eules post did a very good job of seperating the potential danger areas. You and I disagree some on the views. Yes site means a lot, but here in Dallas its pretty much wide open areas as far as you can see. So location of the skydive needs to be taken into account as well. I am not so sure a canyon is safer than Skydive Dallas for a first jump. *Tie if everything goes well. As you said, we are off to a good start. Taking into account that the pilot may screw up...I think a big ass open area is a better choice than a canyon. Plus the pilot has more time to deal with line twists, and more time to learn how to fly the canopy from 4 grand vs just about any bridge jump. * Point to skydive Regaurdless of how much you think a canopy wants to open, or how well they are packed, they do infact malfunction. Knowing that, two canopies are better than one. PLUS, with the situation given above the skydiver has an AAD. While I think its stupid to rely on an AAD stats show that they increase the chance of a canopy being deployed. But we are talking about student canopies, not Stiletto's. *Point Skydive (2) Base jumpers and freefallers have about the same chance of really screwing up the pitch by being unstable. The line twist situation makes me want to give the point to skydive since as you said the skydiver has more time to fix it and he will not hit a wall with an offheading opeing with line twists. *Point skydive????? Skydivers rarely ever have to worry about it. I could say the same for skydiving. But the fact is people in BOTH sports have screwed up and forgot, or were unable. From 5,000 feet you ahve more time than any BASE jump I have ever heard of. Also in this situation the CYPRES gives the nod to Skydive. *Point Skydive (3) I agree its a tough call. But I know for a fact that it has been done both ways. However the fact that the Military has done it for quite sometime makes me think that skydive would be safer. I also think either is a stupid idea. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Group size does not matter. And the answer to your great question is......Depends on a bunch of stuff. But yes, you can infact drift back to the exit point if the winds are strong enough. I have been in a plane and left after FF's and actually crossed over them and opened on the other side of them. The exits largest to smallest is really not about drift, its about seperation and exit window. A big group can take 10-15 seconds to get ready (so can a 4way, or a freefly team, but were talking normal). So lets say you have a 15 way (15 seconds to climb out and go), a two way RW (10 seconds), a two way FF (10) and a Tandem (15). If you start the climb out so that they EXIT in the "good spot window" the Bigway can climb out and exit just as they enter the window. If we put any group but the Tandem first (high puller), then you lose 5 seconds of exit window. To ensure seperation and the Tandem landing on, you might have a go around.. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A water landing carries less risk due to impact. However, I'd have to say that the skydive would be the safer option. I base this on the fact that with a skydive the student does not have to avoid a cliff, building, bridge...ect in freefall or under canopy. Also if the student pulls at say 4 grand, then he has 4 grand to play with and learn the canopy. The Airforce has taught this way for years. And a good FJC (in both methods) teaches the student all the really need to know. That being said, I think BOTH can be done. I'd give the nod to the skydive being the safer of the two based on the Airforces track record, both using big canopies, and the skydive having a CYPRES...My answer would not change even without the CYPRES, but with it we have a really good chance of a good canopy that we don't get with BASE. It should be noted that while I do have skydiving "I" ratings that I only have 2 BASE jumps and can't really speak about BASE as an expert....So this is just my opinion anyway. But I think BASE is more difficult/dangerous than skydiving. So I think it would naturally carry over to this case. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The Silver Wings guys knew I was a jumper. They loaned me gear so I could jump on weekends. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is much harder to do....Flare amount at different levels of brakes depends on canopy design and WL. Accuracy canopies are normally 7 cells with low aspect ratios (aspect ratio is the ratio of the distance from end cell to end cell to the distance front to back). The higher the aspect ratio the higher performance the canopy in most cases. For example: Velocity 103 has an aspect ratio of 2.69:1 Stilleto 107 is 2.68:1 Sabre2 is 2.58:1 PD Reserve is 2.1:1 Other factors such as WL, line trim, cord, ect all effect performance as well (mainly speed). But in general, lower aspect ratios are less responsive turning. Accuracy canopies are made to fly in half brakes...One important difference is they are sized larger since a bigger canopy flies and lands slower. Some accuracy canopies have vents on the bottom that allow air not only to enter from the nose to keep the canopy inflated, but they also have vents on the bottom. While you could fly a Stiletto 107 in at half brakes....Its gonna hurt. So while the accuracy approach is a GREAT thing to learn...I would try to have a full speed approach to landing if possible under sport canopies. But that does not mean you can't fly an accuracy approach until 100 feet or so and then let it fly. *IMPORTANT* let the brakes up smoothly and slowly at an altitude that the canopy has time to recover. When you use brakes the canopy slows down. If you let the brakes up fast, the canopy will dive towards the ground to build speed...Thats bad folks. Practice this up high till you have an idea. But if the options are smack into the ground at half brakes and PLF, or fly full speed into a tree....I'll half break and PLF thanks. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Makes ya wonder how I knew that huh? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A quick description....I think everyone shoudl learn this. An accuracy approach (Which can be flown under ANY canopy) is an approach where you use the middle of the flight range as the normal (NOTE: that is *most* times the half brake position). This allows you to adjust your landing point by adding or reducing the brake input. But by being in the middle of the flight envelope you can go either way. If you are at full flight, or at full sink (Stall) you can only adjust one way. The middle of the flight range of a given canopy can different based off of: Design, line lengths, twists in the steering lines, Shrink of the lines...ect. But the half brake setting is the best place to start until you know the best setting. From the middle of the control range you can adjust your touch down point in either direction the max amount. If I have to land in a tight area: I take my canopy to half brakes...From there I decide if I am going to over or undershoot my target area. If I am going to undershoot, I go to 1/4 brakes to see if I am going to make it....If I am still not going to make it, I go to best glide (Which depending on the type/design/WL might be full flight, 1/4 brakes, rear risers...ect) and I look for an alternate landing site if possible. If I screwed up so bad as to be short and no way to make it I select the best place to crash and crash with my wings level. The best place my be a rooftop, pool..ect. If I am going to overshoot I pull my brakes down to 3/4 and see if I can get back on target...If not I can sink my canopy, or make small *FLAT* turns to bring me back on target (This all depends on my canopy/wingload/winds/ ect. If I am under my big canopy...I'll sink it. If I am under a tiny eliptical, I'll make small turns.) All the time I am trying to fly a "profile" that at the middle control range of the canopy has me landing at the point I want. That way if I am coming in short or long I can adjust. At full flight, or even best glide, you can not gain distance, only reduce. That limits my choices by half. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334