Ron

As a dime a dozen? Simple fact is that many employers will not get excited about hiring a guy that they think could get killed any weekend. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

NO........Hell no. People do not see skydivers as paying attention to detail, they see them as dangerous, drug using, wild, unreliable, thrill seekers. So tell them other hobbies. Edit, so it actually depends on the job. If its a job in an office, or bank, no. If its a job that requires physical skills...MAYBE. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure the driver is. He may not be CRIMINALLY liable, but the driver is guilty of hitting someone. The more manuverable craft is supposed to yield. A pilot is responsable to "See and Avoid". While this is an accident, and while I think Bill is not Criminaly guilty of anything....He did in fact fly a plane in such a way as to hit a slower moving "craft". That means he is guilty of hitting Gus. Not guilty of a crime, but still guilty of hitting Gus. You can choose to debate "definitions" all day, but he flew a faster more manuverable craft into another. Reference FAR§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation. Kind of a catch all. I say that while I 100% understand how it happen the PIC is 100% responsible for the Aircraft and what he does with it. FAR § 91.111 Operating near other aircraft. Self explanitory FAR § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

IT *could* happen, but it does not. Some off the top of my head reasons: 1. SL students the major focus is exit and canopy control. For AFF its body position and pulling. 2. SL student get a bunch more jumps under supervision. The complete program with no repeats is like 15-17 jumps....AFF is 7-8. Thats almost 10 more jumps with direct supervision. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No problem, Im sorry if you thought I was jumping on you. I was just trying to say that maybe you should learn about the SL system a little more before you make that call. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A good pilot who was in the most difficult phase of flight (landing). Over took a good skydiver under canopy that was in the pilots blind spot. The skydiver was in a position that would make it very hard to see in a high wing plane. And the skydiver was in an area that was in a standard approach to the runway. A canopy has a fwd speed of about 20 MPH. Thats almost nothing when you are in a plane that is doing 80-90 in the pattern. Canopies look like they are going straight down when you are in a plane. It is easy for a pilot to understand how this could happen. The pilot and the skydiver were good, but both were in an area that increased the chance of a collision. To avoid it: Pilots stay away from the DZ on the way down and try to approach from the far side of the runway. Try to keep a count of all the canopies. Skydivers stay the hell away from the runway to include the pattern. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure if you promise to keep professional. Ok, here he is saying that the police investigation was INCOMPLETE, meaning they were not done or it was not through enough. Also he is saying they were inexperienced in Aviation issues. But it is not the police's job to be an expert on everything. They did their job to the best they could and gave a recomendation to the DA. The DA's job is to take all the evidence and decide if charges should be brought. The DA in this case will look at OTHER people who have evidence (NTSB and FAA) and will make a choice. This is not Judge Dread where the cops arrest, charge and sentance a perp. He also says that the MEDIA took a report from the police and used it to sell the news....Thats normal, but not the cops fault. The police were told that Bill and Gus raced. So they said they had been told that. Police never use the family of a party they are investigating...Thats smart. In this case John is on Bill's side (which is not normal), but an impartal perosn is the best, not someone with a dog in the fight. Again the police would be stupid to use a family member for evidence. This is a known and a given....But you claim I don't know about the fighting since I don't live there....But John lives in PA. So while he does not live there either, he however knows? And for the record, I never said that some people are not trying to use this against Bill or SDD....My point was that you are using this against the DeLand PD just like you claim they are using it against you. And that includes your activist purposes against the DeLand PD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I thought you were done with this? You yourself calimed you lived there for two years and knew nothing about the city Your emotions are still getting the better of you. Your out bursts are still doing more harm than good. You want to claim you know more about this than me? Fine. You what to claim you know more about DeLand than me? Fine. You want to claim I have no clue about skydiving and city relationships? Fine. But your emotional out bursts and calling the police stupid just shows you are using your emotion, not your logic. You are hurting this case, the relationship between the DZ and the city and the image of skydivers everywhere when you act out. Its not about you, its about your emotional out bursts doing more damage than helping. Now this part is about you. You won't let this die since you can't seem to think anything past your emotions. You attack anyone that tries to help unless they agree to see it 100% your way. That is reacting with emotion, not logic. Pretty common for you. Im sorry you seem to need to be correct about this and refuse to see you are doing more harm than good with your emotions. For the benefit of everyone, I'm gonna stop this pissing contest you seem hell bent on starting and let you continue to think that only you are right, and I don't know shit about anything. BTW you wanna play definitions...OK I said he was GUILTY: Responsible for or chargeable with a reprehensible act; deserving of blame; culpable: guilty of cheating; the guilty party. And he is. Now try to have a good day. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I am trying to tell you that one 5'6" (me) and two 6'3" guys jumping a Cessna is easy. The student is already outside the plane and facing the relative wind. I understand your opinion, I'm just telling you it does not matter. The ONLY thing better about doing AFF out of an Otter is it takes half as long to get to altitude and you get on average 3 thousand more feet to do the same jump. The Cessna exit might even be easier. But to be honest doing AFF from a Cessna lets you teach the student to spot...REALLY teach them to spot, not just look down at the ground. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It makes no difference. Any AFF I that can't do AFF out of a Cessna should not be doing AFF. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would suggest that you learn more about the SL program before you make such an opinion. Both methods *if taught correctly* teach well. The problem I see is that AFF is so fast that many students "graduate" without some much needed basics. On average I would venture that most SL grads can spot better than AFF grads. I have meet AFF "I's" that can't spot a Cessna. On average SL students have better canopy control than the AFF student of the same jump number. Being that most deaths in this sport are with open canopies....I think thats a good thing. Now AFF grads are better in freefall. But the focus is almost always about turning points or getting the spock. So in many cases SL students get equal in freefall, but some AFF grads never do get better under canopy. Take an otter load of AFF grads with 20 jumps and an otter load of SL grads with 20 jumps. Pull the power out at 2,500 feet and tell both planes to get out...Which plane will empty first? Find out how many SL grads graduate and can't pack, compare that to AFF grads. Places that have marginal weather can still jump SL. If there are clouds at 7 grand the SL guy can still jump, the AFF guy is grounded. SL is cheaper than AFF. A DZ in my area that teaches SL charges 150.00 for both the class and the first jump. Additional jumps are 75.00 (When I learned it was 140.00 for the JFC and 40 for the rest of the jumps). Another DZ in my area offering AFF has the lowest priced AFF FJC as 309.00 So you could get 3 SL jumps for just the cost of the AFF program. Also additional jumps I think are 175.00 so thats two more SL jumps per jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I spent enough time in the community to meet someone, fall in love, and get married there. (We got Divorced in Dade City) But now you are an expert on the town and its politics? And just because you never met me means I was not there? Not even close to correct. Bill did in fact hit Gus. Thats a fact. So he is guilty of hitting Gus. You may not like that fact, but it is a fact and your emotions on the subject do not change anything. Being guilty of an accident and being guilty of a crime is not the same thing. And being guilty of a crime is what we are talking about. You normally are more rational than this. But you are letting your emotions control your thinking. My point is simply that your emotional outbursts bashing the police will not help matters at all. While I can understand your anger, and understand your desire to protect Bill....You are doing more harm than good. When I opposed your view, you attacked my position. Claiming I didn't know enough to make an educated oppinion. Well, you can bicker all day about if my 10 years jumping there and being there enough to marry a local is enough time spent there for you, I frankly don't care what you think. Even if I knew NOTHING about DeLand (which is BS), this same situation is played out at DZ's all over the country. "Crazy" skydivers do "stupid" shit and the local pilots (who normally have money since they can own a plane) hate the "meat bombs". They use their power and position in the community to try and exploit any problems. And here you are playing right into their expectations by calling the police "stupid". You think that HELPS this situation? You are normally more logical than this, so I can only assume you are working on emotion, not logic. So I'll drop it since you are not acting like yourself. But you are not helping matters with your emotional outbursts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Really? I have been jumping in Deland since 1996 on a regular basis. Was on a team FROM there for three years. My ex-wife was a manifestor there, I met her there and got married to her there. I guess almost 10 years of jumping there does not count "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He *is* guilty of hitting Gus. The only question left was, "Is it criminal?" The simple fact is there is bad blood between some pilots at DeLand and the DZ. This does extend into the politics of DeLand as well. However, if you were a cop and people you trusted were telling you that these two did dangerous things ALL the time. Betting for beer on who could land first for example. And you had several more people saying the same thing...Well you would believe them over the skydivers who always band together in an accident. And those same skydivers are calling the cops "Stupid" and saying the cops are fucked up. Who would you believe if you were the cop? Remember Skydivers have the image of drunkards, drug users, and partiers. And WE create that image. We make movies with nudity and make big budget movies with skydivers being drug runners. Pilots have a much better image. We create the "wild" image and celebrate it when we want it and then cry when people think it of us when we don't. I'd bet the police have more bad dealings with Skydivers than pilots. Calling the cops stupid does not help. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Insulting people never fixes things, it only causes more problems. Cops often say they are gonna "get" someone. They could say that thinking they have proof of wrong doing...Like I don't know, a rumor that Bill and Gus used to race to the ground? If I were a cop and heard that, I would say I would get the guys involved. Which is 100% what they SHOULD do. The rumor was they were racing and those "dimwits" looked into it. My whole point was that you coming on here and attacking the DeLand PD is not going to help matters at all. The police are doing the job they are trained and paid to do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That still does not change how the police are doing their job and attacking them will not help anyone, but make matters worse. I have known Bill and Gus for almost 10 years. I don't think either was stupid. But accident aside calling the police "Stupid" while claiming they were out to get someone, will not make this situation or the relationship between skydivers and the city better. We have some people on here who think "Prop wash" is a cleaner for propellers and who think "Legal briefs" are what judges wear under their pants making comments about flying and law. They are doing it to defend Bill. Its a normal reaction. But attacking the police is just going to make things worse. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK fair answer. But I think SL is MUCH easier. You have very little to do on each level, it is spoon fed to you one little bit at a time. In AFF #1 you have to do plenty: 1.Climb out 2.Arch 3.COA's...And during these COA's you have to get the hand signals and then perform the task, then check to see if you have it correct 4.Pull at an altitude 5.Handle any mals 6.Fly the canopy to landing. SL you have to: 1.Climb out 2.Arch 3.Handle any mals 4.Fly the canopy to landing. 2nd jump on AFF you have tons more to do...SL its the SAME as the first jump. Sure you don't learn as fast in SL but there is much less work than on an AFF jump. Faster, I'd give you. But easier? Not in my opinion, and I have taught both. True, but can you spot? Can you exit at 2500 feet in a second? I don't think so...But while I think AFF is a good system, I think it has some very large areas it needs to be improved on. And it is not inherent to the AFF system to work on those areas. SL it is. Of course it depends on the DZ...But in most cases AFF only DZ's turn out students that can't pack, can't spot, and are affraid to exit low at a higher rate than SL only DZ's. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Based on? Do you have ratings in either? I do. AFF is better for freefall skills. But, most AFF grads are missing some vital skills IMO. They don't learn to pack, can't spot, and are afraid to get out low more than SL students. Good freefall skills are almost everyones goal. So the SL folks might take longer to get there, but they work on it and get there. Not many AFF grads work on packing, spotting, and low exits. I'd trust a SL student to pack my rig and spot for me WAY over an AFF grad with 20 jumps. Both programs can be good. But after 7 levels, two "Spots", one 5,000 foot exit, and a packing class AFF folks are on their own to learn those skills. SL folks learn those early. These are skills that can save your life. Turning points in time never saved anyones life. I had a guy once tell me that I would never be very better than him since he learned AFF and I learned SL. Funny thing is I have not seen him place 7th in open 4way at the nationals. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill is big in this sport, but he is not HALF now is he? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Soon you will agree more and more.....HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Don't worry it only hurts the first time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And if it was not criminal then no charges would be filled. Are you a pilot? Do you know how much work there is on landing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because people make mistakes. And as long as they are not criminal they should not be drawn and quartered. He has been held accountable. He had his ticket revoked and then just a suspension. Still its how he makes a living so they took his job for a year. Because they know that Bill would not do anything like that on purpose. Also they recognize that it was an accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am sure they will. If not the DA will look at it. Police collect evidence and offer opinions, but only the DA can bring charges. My point was that the knee-jerk defense is quite common, but many times wrong. How many times have we seen someone die and a bunch of people jump to that persons defense with no facts and no clue about the details? Also calling the cops looking into this "Stupid" just makes them more likely to head hunt later. It also just widens the hate gap of skydivers in DeLand. So those that jump on the "Bill is innocent and the cops are just stupid and out to get us" bandwaggon are just making things worse. Is there a personal vedetta? Maybe. But the best course of action is to let it play out and trust that the NTSB and FAA reports will tell the DA that the cops don't have the whole picture. For what its worth..My opinion. All pilots have a responsability to see and avoid. Yes Gus was in the "Wrong" area. And I do not think Bill was in the wrong. But he still has a responsability to see and avoid. Example. I am driving home from work. I am in a lane, lights on, not drunk, not speeding....doing everything right. A kid runs out in front of me and I kill them. I am not guilty of a crime, but pedestrians have the right of way and I hit the kid. The police will arrest me if they think they should and may even ask the DA to press charges. The DA will look at the evidence and make a choice to bring charges. In this case I don't think Bill was criminal. I have very little doubt that the DA will look at the NTSB and FAA reports and not press charges. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can't sign away negligance no matter what the waiver states. And as someone else pointed out, signing a waiver does not in any way effect Criminal cases. Case in point, if a 17 year old girl wants to sleep with a 25 year old guy, it is still rape no matter how willing she was. If the pilot was reckless or careless it is still a crime no matter how many waivers you signed. Now I know all involved and I don't think it is the case, but it is the Polices job to look into ALL angles. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Interesting question. If you have an Instructor rating....And WORK at the DZ. I would pull the student aside and without saying the other Instructor is stupid....Let them know that there are other ways and explain them to the student. "Ya know, pulling that high is a little abnormal....Ya know, it might be better to go after the Freaks, or atleast let them know you plan on pulling high. More info never hurt anyone." If you don't work there, you might want to ask the Instructor why. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334