Ron

Not everyone. I only bothered to care about this since she has the "I'm entitled" attitude. And many were 100% correct as to how things happend. You don't have to be there to know how things happen. In this case she screwed up...Not the first person to screw up, and not the last. The difference here is she made a media stink about it, for what seems to be, to have others pay for her mistakes. OK, skydivers are for the most part pretty nice and help when they can. But she almost seems to demand help, and does not seem to care how she comes accross. If the Red Cross or the local blood drive folks jumped in my face and told me to help them or I am an asshole....Well I would tell them to pound sand up their asses. Why? It is not MY job to make sure YOU have insurance. It is YOUR job. It is about personal responsibility. YOU are responsible to make sure YOU are covered, not my job to make sure you are covered, or my duty to help if you are not. If I choose to help thats my business...But by demanding it, or by calling me names if I don't thats not going to get you anywhere. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The chart should be on the safer side knowing that the agressive canopy pilots will test out of it. If that means the hotshots need to get instruction and work on the test to pass it??? Great, thats the idea. I like the idea of a guy working and learning and moving up. What I don't like is a guy that only *thinks* he has the skills and can run out and get a VX-90 with 100 jumps. The problem is this.....The people who need to be held back or study more are not the ones that would use the test unless it was required. I never worry about the guy who is scared to do a 100 way and works his way up by doing 10,20,30,40,50,80.....Ect. I worry about the guy that has only ever done a 20 way and wants on the 400 way. There are several young hotshot canopy folks that don't worry me at all. They take gradual steps and learn valuble lessons on the way. I worry about the guy that sees the hotshots and thinks its the canopy that makes them good, not their skills. Those people will not "self test". They will just buy the canopy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh I agree, I think its stupid to rush into it to look cool. I know several experienced TI's that can pull it off...More power to them. But for a new guy to rush into it, thats what I think is stupid. I WANT the tools for the job even if I don't need them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep that and her sense of being entitled to our help she used here: Rhem said it best if she dropped the attitude she would get more than with "One and Only Post...Read It and Get Over It!!!!" If you come to a group and start off yelling and act like they owe you...Well don't expect to get much help. People want to help, but they don't want to get beat up till they help. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The difference was WE got togther to help Chris and Gus. The families did not start a media shitstorm that put the sport in a bad light and ask for help. In fact Gus's Family AVOIDED the media. That is the difference that you and Tammi seemed to have missed or not cared about. Asking at the DZ is one thing, milking the media and putting the sport in a bad light is another. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you have not read her statments to the media before she got national attention. Read them, they are posted in here somewhere, and then get back to me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think that jumping without insurance is bad judgement. You want to tell me to consider the circumstances....OK. Have you? A buddy broke his leg. It was a clean break of the femur. Not exactly a good bone to break, but it was broken in the best possible way. He had a good job, but no insurance. His medical bill was 75,000.00 He declared bankruptcy. Another buddy broke his leg from a miss timed flare. Tib Fib and it was kinda ugly. I know how ugly it was since I held his leg together till the paramedics showed up. He made good money didn't have insurance. His medical bill was 107,000.00. This was several years ago and he may never pay it off. His doctor performed one procedure on him that was cheaper, but not as good as a more costly procedure. The Dr's reason? "I'm not going to spend that much when we will never see a penny of it." So my buddy now has scars and limited movement. The other procedure would have been much better, but since hospitals only need to perform a certain level of service thats all they will do. Quincy years ago the hospital was getting really pissed at all the skydivers that didn't have insurance and stuck the hospital with unpaid bills. These are just a few stories where I knew the amounts of the medical bills. There are plenty more where the person who if they had medical insurance when they got hurt would have recoverd fine both physically and financally, but didn't since they did not have insurance. Add in that the new bankruptcy laws make it very hard to declare to get out of medical debt and the picture is not very good. You don't have insurance due to your job and hobby. OK, but you *need* a job and *want* a hobby. Skydiving is not a need. To do a high risk sport, just cause you want to, when you could lose everything is bad judgment. I compare it to driving drunk. Why is it rediculous for me to not want to pay for your bad choices? I think it would be stupid to want to pay for someone elses bad choice without bitching about it. Like it or not we all pay when an uninsured skydiver gets hurt. Yep and while there are thouse out there this thread is about knowing that AND taking every effort to not screw it up. KNOWING the risks don't you think its stupid to endanger not only your life, but your wifes financial future just so you can have fun? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would roll them up and tuck them up for the first session (2min). If things went well (ask the rat), put them on. No reason to be afraid of them, but the first time it might be better to not have the extra input till you are used to the tunnel a bit. But I think you will get used to them quite quickly. Also for eveyone else....Some time fly in the tunnel without your booties....You really have to use your knees more. It is a trick I use with some students to get them to use their knees more and it will helo you add more power when you put them back on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Tammi...I think there is a big difference between people getting together to help a friend, and asking strangers to help you. Also it seems that her story has changed to fit the audience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

As a SCUBA Instructor have you not found the same thing? Just wondering. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't know if I have said this before...But I think its good advice. Wear what you are used to wearing. I have 3,000 jumps with a bootie suit. I LIKE my suit. I was doing tandems with a double zipper since I found it easier to use for tandems...But I never felt as in control as I would have liked. One of the Tamdem examiners I really trust walked up to me and asked me why I was wearing the non bootie suit. He told me to put the bootie suit on since it was what I was used to...And after one jump he was right. Everything felt rock sold and more importantly FAMILIAR to me. People have given me grief about me wearing my bootie suit for tandems....Well screw em. I can do the jump without them, but I am more comfertable and more in control with them. I will do what is best for me and my student. Not my ego, or someone elses idea of what is "best". The dumbest thing I see is new TI's rushing to wear shorts since they think its cool....I'd rather have control surfaces to fly with than look cool. Just my opinion, I am sure others will disagree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I disagree. Having been an instructor with some of the most fit people you can find and having jumped with some regular joes.....The fit folks were able to keep their mental edge better and were able to make more jumps and retain more. I have found very few activities where good physical fitness does not help. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have always wanted to see a rule with a chart that shows a "normal" progression. Just for example lets say Brians old chart (which I always liked): 0-100 under 1.0 100-200 1.1 max 200-300 1.2 max 300-400 1.3 max 400-500 1.4 max 500+ discretion Now lets take Joe Hotshot with 300 jumps. He can only jump a 1.3 max UNLESS he passes a test out. For the test out lest use my personal favorite, the PRO test. 10 jumps pre declared in a 30 foot circle standing up in row...Miss one and you start back at #1. When you pass that test (and it could be any test) you may go up one level...So Mr. Hotshot could now jump a 1.4 max....Until he passes the test again with the new canopy. Truely skilled pilots will be able to jump what they can prove they can handle safely. People who just think they have "mad skills" will not be allowed to progress faster than the "norm". As for who it should effect. My opinion is that we should start with the new jumpers. Yes, we will lose some folks who are currently jumping, but the next generation will be better prepared. And nothing would make me happier than to not need this rule...But its a simple thing to do, and once the skill level and education of the average jumper is high enough...then we can just make it go away...Kinda like how Birdman suits were one time banned by the USPA, then you needed 500 jumps, now I see some people with 100 jumping them safely. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Great question and a difficult question at the same time. The answer.......Depends. Take a normal coach potato and put him on a Dropzone. He might be able to handle 2-3 jumps a day, or he might do better with less or with more. With fewer jumps per day the strain is less and the importance of the TLO's are more focused. Plus the physical strain is managable. With more jumps comfort in freefall gets higher, but exhaustion creeps in creating its own set of problems. Two cases for you. 1. A group of Military SF folks I worked with. We put them through almost 10 student jumps in one day. They were also PT studs and quite sharp in the head. This would be a big mistake for an average person. But one or two jumps a day would be almost boring for this group. 2. Civilian came and wanted to do AFF in one weekend. His original plan was 20 jumps in one weekend. Average guy, average shape. He never made it. By jump 5 day 1 his brain was fried and he was exhausted physically. Since we don't have Physical tests/Aptitude tests before the FJC a standard rule is in place at 3 per day. There have been times that I have done 5 with a student, and times I stopped them at two. So like I said....Depends. Trust the Instructor, and let them make the call. If YOU are the instructor and can't tell....Error on the side of saftey....Exhaustion is a major cause of accidents. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The whole situation is fishy...BF instructor, questions about the saftey of the gear. At first she seemed to blame the gear, then she seems to accept the fault. She seems to be trying to milk it for aid...Not unexpected but distasteful to some. For example my parents did really stupid stuff with their retirement investments. I am now helping to support them. I am not asking for help from people, nor expecting it. They are not asking help for you or anyone else. She did something stupid and now it seems kinda expects others to fix it for her. I am all about helping those that need it, but only if they are trying to help themselves and only those that admit they screwed up....I don't money to drunks on the side of the road, but I do give money to charities that help Alchoholics. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What about my generation ya old man? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not all DZ's are like this....If they were then there would be less accidents and no need for a rule/chart. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Perfect post. Make the WL limits a BSR and let the people who bitch about it fade away just like the folks that bitched about min pull altitudes. Back 25 years ago you were a pussy if you pulled higher than 2 grand. Now its common to here people pulling at 3.5 or even 4 who are expereinced. Yes the equipment has gotten better/softer. But with the performance of the canopies getting better something needs to be done. I doubt anyone thinks that education is not the best answer, but even on this thread we have had two people from the same DZ (Chicago) say two totaly different things about the canopy classes they got. So its quite clear that while education is best, that it also is the one that is the most difficult to make 100% accross the board....I mean if two students fro the SAME DZ have two totally different views on the same subject, how do you expect ALL the DZ's in the world/US to do the same thing well? Also, a WL BSR hurts NOONE. Some will cry and claim that it "Holds them back"....Well BS. Every WL rule I have supported has a test out option. The only people that can bitch about having to prove what they can do to do what they want are: 1. Those that can't do it, and should not be allowed. 2. Those that are gonna bitch at anything. Just like the neon gear issue, or the beer rules...A WL rule will be accepted by the new jumpers since they will not know anything other than the new rule. It might be too late to help the guy that is gonna femur this weekend, but the guy that has not made his first jump yet we might be able to save. A WL Rule with a test out option should be done. Can't pass the test? Shut up and get some skills till you can. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And how much more per jump would you be willing to pay for that to happen? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

ah but the rub is if you do jump without insurance and break yourself, don't expect me to pay for your mistake. I think it is very bad judgment to jump without insurance. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't think you are bashing him. But ,and no offense here since I know you....But do you think that a guy with 2,000 more jumps than you might be a better coach and worth more? For example I bet you are a better FF coach than I am since I don't do much in the way of freefly. He is doing a good service, one I commend him for. You help out as well and thats great. The more that put back the better everyone will be. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Put this into perspective. Slots here are 23 a piece. 23 X 2 = 46.00 Pack job for the coach 6.00 = 52.00 So the pro coaches are making 28 bucks a jump. I get 32-36 for a Tandem or AFF jump. Lets look at how much I he *spent* to be able to coach. 2900 jumps X (a good rate...say 15.00) = $43,500.00. And thats not including pack jobs, gear, him getting coached...ect. 80 bucks/jump is a deal. I charge 25 a jump or 150 per day and thats with all my jumps and packjobs covered. Chris: Bravo to you. PM sent. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, but just like John said a little common courtesy goes a long way. You don't want to be nice and polite? Thats fine. I will not get fired, I'm at home. But what I was trying to do was to ask for a little common repect for others. You don't want to do that? Again, fine. As for the definiton about NSFW would be something that could get you in trouble if your boss walked by...good definition IMO. Does not apply to me however, since my boss is 1100 miles away Sorry about bothering you to be considerate of others. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Could be a safe site, or it could be a totally different site. Happens all the time. There was a government site that if you put ".com" instead of ".gov" you got a surprize with DD's looking at you. Again, "Teenplanet" could be just like "Younglife" if you don't know. I just asked that people show some courtesy to warn people....You don't agree, fine. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

All I said was it would be nice if people put questionable material to include those 4 little letters (NSFW). Some links look innocent ("TeenPlanet" could be some Christian site like Younglife....Or "Younglife" could be about 16 year old hookers). I'm at home anyway, so my only danger is the GF getting pissed. But having been told about people that have gotten the boot I figured I would ask folks to keep being polite in mind. It seems people would rather be rude than polite from the drift of this thread. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334