Ron

So you can't/will not answer a simple question. You complain about a device, but refuse to look at the fact that the current device is pretty good, and any "new" device will bring new problems. Skydiving has created accidents....Lame, really lame attempt to misdirect. We are not talking about outlawing skydiving, we are talking about thow you think there is a problem and are complaining about how we don't see it. But you refuse to look at the history of skydiving and how your "fix" could kill more people than it saves. You use words like ergonomics and say how the VIGIL was better, but your example device has CAUSED accidents. Working on fixing a problem that does not exist does not make much sense....So have fun with that. I see no need to continue this. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Could you answer the questions I have asked several times? 1. How much is it worth, both in accidents and money, for there to be a "better" device that fixes a problem that could be fixed by people not being dumb? You mentioned how VIGIL had it right in some areas...But the VIGIL multi-mode has CAUSED accidents. 2. Is it "newer" or "better" if it can cause accidents that the other avoided? 3. Is it worth it to design a device that may in fact encourage stupidity in a high risk sport? This is not driving, it is a high risk sport that requires people to pay attention and train to participate...Should the sport be down dumbed to the level that an idiot with no training should be able to participate? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is funny. You say this in this post: "There's no reason that a well designed AAD needs to be 'operated' any more than a crash barrier or an airbag. To me, the measure if the cypres' deficiency is exactly that I cannot treat it like an airbag. That I must switch it on or off at all, and that people have died as a result of failing to turn it on or off correctly." But right above this post you say: "You are making unnecessary assumptions about how an aad ought to be constituted and operated". Is that not exactly what you are doing in this whole thread? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Except with one there is applause, and the skydiving one.....Well... For my next trick....SPLAT!!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends a bunch on canopy. I have done downplanes to ~200 feet before...The landing was like a hookturn. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

NO. It in most cases will not help you at all. For more info....peep http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1957106#1957106 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How many accidents have been caused by not being able to turn off an AAD? It does just fine if you KNOW how to do it....Do you have a problem turning it off? I don't have a problem turning mine off at all. Would you rather have an AAD that turns off too easy so someone burns in accidentally? Again, how many accidents have been caused by not being able to turn off an AAD? And they also said that it is not an AAD for everyone and that for the average jumper it will INCREASE RISK. Thats not really an improvement then is it. No, what you see is that some people know that any new device will bring new risk. (The new swoop CYPRES increases risk to most jumpers, the muti-mode Vigil increased risk...ect). What you think is people thinking the CYPRES is "perfect" is people saying that its not "broken" and not seeing a need for a "better" device since the newer device will ADD risk in most cases. An idiot smoking it down to 750 feet on a wingsuit jump and not being saved is not the fault of the CYPRES....It is the fault of the user. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But you will not answer my question....How much is it worth, both in accidents and money, for there to be a "better" device that fixes a problem that could be fixed by people not being dumb? You mentioned how VIGIL had it right in some areas...But the VIGIL multi-mode has CAUSED accidents. Is "newer", "better" if it causes accidents? The very nature of ergonomics says no, yet you keep saying it. Think about that for a second. You want a better AAD...OK but think about this. There are today people jumping that would not jump without an AAD. They consider the risk way too high. But by making a good AAD we allow those jumpers to participate in a sport that they just might not be suited for. So by having a good AAD we have in fact created more unsafe jumpers. (Lets not get into the whole, "I wear an AAD, so I am safer BS"...Lets just stick to the point that people who do not trust themselves will jump with an AAD when they would not jump without one). So now you wnat to make an AAD so good that a total idiot will be safe? The problem is that then we WILL have total idiots jumping. Oh I think in some ways the CYPRES could be better...But is the ROI worth it? How many accidents are we willing to have in the process of finding a "better" AAD? How many people dying is it worth to make an idiot proof AAD so more people will feel safe that wouldn't jump without one? So how many accidents and how much money is it worth? I realize that every "improvement" in this sport is often the result of accidents. (Case in point the new swoop mode AAD). But I also know that many new "improvements" also COST lives (mini rings, Xbraced canopies). Is it worth it to fix a problem that is not really a problem? In your "I would like an AAD that will save me if I "cruise" through 750 feet...." How about putting a focus on not cruising through 750 feet? How stupid do you have to be? Ever been that low in freefall? Shit is very big. Do you really want people that stupid to jump? Please answer what number of accidents you are willing to have to make something that is not broken "Better". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You seem to like to ignore history. Most new devices create new ways to die. Hand deploys brought twisted belly bands and leg bands that killed people. Mini Three Rings caused risers to break. Stiletto's brought deaths. The muti mode AAD brought misfires. Almost every "new" thing brought "new" problems. You want an AAD that will save you if you do something so stupid as forget to pull on a specialty jump. GREAT. But what cost are you willing to give for the ability for you to do something so stupid as to "cruise" a WS below 750 feet? You are looking for a fix for a problem that should not happen. And by doing so wishing to bring more problems. So I ask again....What are you willing to pay (both in cost and in additional danger) for the ability to have a device that will allow you to be stupid? True, so what are you willing to have a device that will let you do something stupid? You are trying to fix a problem with gizmo's that training and reading the manual will fix. You want better toys and dumber jumpers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

WTS about 11 years ago? That was a cool crispy Sabre. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

One very important thing we have talked about before and should be repeated. Once a rule is put into place, people will bitch about it. Then, people accept it. Interesting enough when the WS came out they required 500 jumps before you could jump them. After a while the "regulations" changed and the wanted you to get instruction if you had less than 500 jumps. (BTW when I did my first WS jump I had 3500 jumps and STILL took a class and jumped with an Instructor). Not a bad idea....I think it should come form the USPA however. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Everything from New Hire, to Dangerous Goods spill Cleanup and Aircraft Weight and Balance. Except Tractor Trailer driving. I am not qualified to drive an 18 wheeler so I can't teach it. Today I am teaching a guy on how to teach Aircraft Ground Support.....Hence the ability to post whore. And when needed I work at the Local DZ as an AFF or Tandem guy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well here is where we are out of phase. You said you wanted a device that would save you if you really screwed up. And by making that device you create a bunch of other potential accidents. Case in point, the VIGIL and its mulit-modes...Great idea some think, but it has caused people to jump in the wrong mode and have an incident. So is it really better? You ignore the fact that most "new" things in skydiving provide new ways to have accidents. Your dream AAD for your forgetting to stop the wingsuit jump would maybe fire my AAD under canopy. I am all about better toys. But you seem to want to invent a toy that allows others to be stupid, and ignore the fact that it may endanger others. BillV's example was great. People thought a smart plane would save lives, but it took them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but the even more basic tenants is diver training. I jump a CYPRES since it fits quite well into a skydivers version of Hogarthianism. Works pretty well, has a low misfire rate and as long as you pay attention and know the device it is a very low contributor to accidents. Training and competance is still the #1 line of defense. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why does it bother you to say "100 jump wonder"? You just gave an AFFI a rash of shit over a term that has been around skydiving longer than all of us. THAT is the definition of "100 jump wonder". Someone else said that the danger area is 100-800 jumps. And its true. Its when people start to think they know what they are doing they get hurt/killed. True story...After my 100th jump my best friend tackled me and a group of folks pied me. Then my best friend walked up and in front of EVERYONE said, "Gongrats, we now think you will bounce with at least something out. It will not be the right thing, and it will not be in time, but at least you will pull something." I could have: A. Gotten pissed and never talked to him again. B. Eventually stolen his GF, and now be planning on going to CA for his 40th bday party. Which do you think I did? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its still better than you just claiming its not good. The basic thing you overlook is how the number one failure point is the person, not the device.. And every thing you have griped about (and not provided a solution for) are things that could be fixed by the person bothering to read the manual. It is easier to bitch about a proble, than do anything about it. You also ignore the fact that every "improvement" brings improved dangers. I don't think you have bothered to accept that. You say the VIGIL is great, but the multi mode function ADDED the chance of a fire due to being in the wrong mode. You can say you want GPS, or something else to assist in helping...GREAT. But how are each of these going to ADD danger? Thats something I don't think you have considered, just bithced about the status quo. And the fact is if more people bothered to read the manual that came with the AAD instead of just expect it to be a magic box that will save them...They would be MUCH safer than adding a potentially dangerous new toy. Look up Hogarthian cave divers for more info. The Hogarthian style assumes: The best possible gear, maintained in perfect order. A diver who is highly skilled, and physically fit. A buddy who is similarly fit, skilled and equipped. In addition to the above, Hogarthism follows these principles: Gear should be a cohesive unit, and not a haphazard collection of parts. Think about what you are doing with your gear, and ensure that you are not trying to solve problems that will not occur. Make sure that, in solving a problem you do not create other problems. Less is best. Less gear means less clutter, more streamlined, more comfort, therefore safer. What is not needed should not be carried. REDUCE. REDUCE REDUCE. Hogarthianism relies on simplicity and skill, rather than complexity and additional equipment. Have nothing dangling. All accessories, hoses, etc. are tucked away. It is common for new cave divers to add gear in a haphazard manner. Clutter must inevitably compromise safety rather than enhance it. With good technique, protective accessories SHOULD be unnecessary. An essential part of the safety equation is diver skill. While some do not apply (A buddy who is similarly fit, skilled and equipped) many do (With good technique, protective accessories SHOULD be unnecessary. An essential part of the safety equation is diver skill). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A team I was coaching had a member with a chest strap undone. Video of the dive shows it clearly flapping about during the dive. He never knew it was not fastened till he landed. He was lucky. Others in the same situation have died. If I ever find myself in freefall I will grab the right side of my harness with my left and pitch, then hug myself and try to grab the right side before opening shock....I will also try and sit back as fast as possible to take the opening shock on my legs, not my chest. For the record, I have been stupid enough to climb out without it done once. I had about 30 jumps and someone caught it and pulled me back in. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So now they make the CYPRES so it will fire if you are so stupid as to "cruise" through 750 feet. You have no ADDED risk to many more jumpers who are operating within the design. Now you have people like me who can't jump the device since my canopy will set it off. The device is a BACK UP to you doing something stupid. If you design the device to fit your singular fuckup, then you create more danger in other areas. The first RSL....Killed people, The First AAD's....Killed people, The first 3 rings....Killed people, The first squares....Killed people, Collapsible pilot chutes....Killed people. Get the point? Anything in this sport has killed or failed to save someone at some point. Almost EVERY death could have been prevented by the person paying attention. So far every CYPRES death/not save I can think of would have been prevented if the person had bothered to understand the manual. And every other design has special features that wll kill you if you don't pay attention. VIGILS can be set to fire at TANDEM altitude for expert jumpers. You may think that multi-mode is a good design feature, but it can also kill you if you don't pay attention....Just like setting the ADD at home and driving to a higher altitude DZ can kill you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No. I base this on how I know people who have been seriously hurt and wish they had never jumped. Most people who say they don't care if they get hurt don't really have a clue of what they are thinking. Spend a day with a guy who lives forever in a wheelchair due to his bad choices and see if it changes your mind. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats not a weakness. Thats you doing an activity that might take you into the firing range of a saftey device. If they made a CYPRES that would fire if you forget to pull at a grand...It will also fire with me under canopy. So weakness in *you* makes you think that the design is bad? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Please provide PROOF that it is better. Youa lways ask for others to provide proof...So its your turn. GREAT example....You think mini rings are better? Did you know that mini 3 rings also caused a bunch of problems to include deaths? So any "improvement" also carries greater risk. You want to claim that the CYPRESS needs work? OK, but the major area of improvement is in making sure the idiots that don't bother to read the manual of a device that could kill them learn about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We are talking about SKYDIVING not BASE. Some could have gone to SCUBA or underwater basket weaving also. But they don't count since they left. But the simple fact is in SKYDIVING most think that the altitudes are reasonable, and some think they are low. Thats not the case like it was back then....People who opposed it thought pull altitudes would ruin the sport. Guess what? It's still here. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Perfectly said. You don't here people bitching about Pull altitude BSR's. But they did when they came into effect. Now people think 2 grand is low. The SAME thing will happen with a canopy WL BSR. It will seem like a really normal think after the current crop of jumpers quits bitching about it...Just like the pull altitude BSR's. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really. People know how hard it is to hit a golf ball...Ask around your office how many people have golfed, been to a driving range, or even put-put golf. These people are able to understand golf. Now ask how many people have been to a tunnel or done a tandem. The problem with this sport is that people who don't do it have no idea what its like and therefore can not understand the difficulty. So since they don't know how hard it is to do a spock, they focus on the one thing they can understand and that is getting hurt. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

YES!!!!!!!!! While under water? Or in a current? Lots of people have died thinking that knew about it also. Really, get the water training. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334