Ron

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Everything posted by Ron

  1. If I am not mistaken he said, "Spouting anti-American shit after using it to become wealthy" I find it funny that you guys are attacking him for the same thing you say he is doing....Funny. If he died of something self inflicted this bit will be ironic: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  2. A lot of DZ's just use a harness with handles. Even when there is a hanging harness....You don't see too many non-students in it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  3. Thats OK until you start to cut on yourself. Thats funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  4. The tube would have to land somewhere. Adding weights to it would be adding risk to people on the ground. We can use spaceballs at SOME DZ's, but not all. And the plan is to catch and land with the ball. Other things like "junk day" where they throw anything out of the plane is very carefully planned to avoid risk to people on the ground. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  5. 100% agree. Putting that info out there is one reason I spend my time putting this info together. Now, what do we do about it? I would like for everyone that reads this to look at it and PRACTICE their emergency procedures....To the point of at some time this year getting into a hanging harness. I know that some people think that since they are "experienced" that a hanging harness is not cool....Well I happen to think funerals are much less cool. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  6. Funny, when others do it and she does not agree with them, they are "mean" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  7. Keep your chin up and we will pull for you. Find another way to fill my time...Just like I did after I quit martial arts, flying, SCUBA diving...ect. Just like when a relationship ends...It can sting at first, but if you fill your life, the pain fades and you find yourself in love again. No matter what happens, you will be fine. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  8. Yeah, amazingly students want to copy the cool kids.... Its a shame that not enough people think that safety is cool. Funny story about that....Many years ago I was jumping with Derrick Thomas and the ringer team at a Turkey meet. We had two airspeed folks with us, and all the "experienced" folks in the area...One of the new young hotshots (good jumper) is walking to the plane and he has his rig undone, legstraps hanging lose, cheststrap undone. I pulled him aside and asked him a few questions: 1. Hey XXXXX. You think the group standing out here is really experienced and cool? He said yes. 2. Notice that every single one of them has their gear totally on? No one is wearing their rig like you are right? He said no... 3. Who do you think is cooler, Derrick Thomas, Airspeed, Sally Hathaway, Tony Hataway, or you? He started wearing his rig all the way on. Cool, is surviving. Stupid looking is a body bag. I have 3,800 jumps and maybe 10,000 cutaways . I practice my E-procedures several times on the walk to the boarding area, again in the plane before exit (serves as a handle touch also). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  9. Yes, which makes me think that people are learning, or that some of the regulations (like how some DZ's have WL charts) are helping. Thats good. One thing that bothers me is how so many people this year failed to correctly perform their EP's all the way, or lost track of altitude. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  10. Ron

    Free AlexCrowley!

    And to be honest, I really have not missed it much. New job actually has me either working, or not. When I don't have to work I no longer have to be in the office, so I go home instead of sitting in my office surfing the net. People have their opinons, and I could tell what most people would say before they said it. It was interesting to see some posters view points, but they were almost lost in a bunch of noise. To be honest, I learned a few things. Either way, I found it funny that people who normally aways claim to be fair ect....Don't really act that way. Also, it kinda fits the tyical liberal vs conservative BS like always: Two folks did the same thing and got banned. One publicy cries about it, the other just deals with it. One group rallies up and asks for forgivness (Only for their group, not the other). The other just moves on fiquring that the "law" will not change, and their guy broke the law and got punished. Funny Oh well good luck with your "cause". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  11. Ron

    Free AlexCrowley!

    Sour grapes is when you can't get something, and then later claim you didn't want them anyway. It came for Aesop's story about a fox http://www.storyarts.org/library/aesops/stories/sour.html I'm just pointing out how some who claim to want fairness, kindness, forgivness, ect. Change that stance when it comes to someone they have a personal problem with. You don't hear me bitching about my SC ban...In fact a whole lot of folks never even knew about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  12. Ron

    Free AlexCrowley!

    Gee, why didn't I expect anything different from you? Its OK to be unfair as long as it works in your favor. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  13. Static Line...I think its pretty much the same program as RAPS. 2 min should be enough. With 10 I can get most people stable, moving forward an back and turns....Some start side slides. Get 10 it will make everything else much easier. Dont' lsiten to the SL/RAPS haters. It is still a good way to learn and has many advantages over AFF. (No fear of low exits, most SL grads know how to spot much better than AFF grads) Both programs are good, but if you go AFF do some low solos and learnto spot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  14. No, he said I was unqualified to have an opinion. TWO people get a say in that distance, not one. They have all been saying we should not have an opinon since we are not qualified in their opinion. And from their side such things as "Buzz anyway, they can't tell"....Ect. He is the one that said he was pushing buttons and making this a game. By doing that he acted childish and destriyed any hope of making any headway towards a serious conversation. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  15. Poor malfuntion procedures is what killed these people if there was no mal, they would not have screwed up. The focus is then on what they did wrong...Which was deal with an abnormal part of a skydive. Yes, they screwed up, but many of these people had 100 to 4000 jumps. Showing that on a "normal" jump they did fine. It was only when a different situation came up that the series of events started. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  16. Get over it. People die since the forget they are falling at 120 MPH and fail to act to stop that situation. The must stop. Here is where you said something that really bothers me. A skydive starts even before you get geared up. It starts with an attitude of safety, goes into proper gear selection, maintaining current, practicing your emergency procedures, planning the dive, checking the gear....ect all done hours, days, mths before the jump that might kill you and ALL could change a fatality. But the simple fact is that landing at 120 will kill you, so you must stop. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  17. Thanks, newspaper reports said almost 1,000. Do you know this for sure? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  18. Malfunctions, 9 (2, 3, 6, 12, 16, 18, 19, 21,25) Due to landing, 6 (1, 4, 5, 7, 9, 20) Equipment Issues, 3 (11, 21, 23) Accidents due to low/no pulls, 3 (8, 22, 24) Bizarre, 2 (10, 25) Canopy Collisions, 2 (14, 15) Freefall Collision, 1 (13) Medical Problem, 1 (17) Unknown, 0 1. 1/4/2005 Deland, FL. 400+ Jumps Hook turn Vengeance 120. Visiting Jumper. 28 years old. Lesson: Don’t turn low. 2. 1/15/2005 Dallas, TX. 99 Jumps Slider came down and trapped a toggle. Jumper may have not released his toggles due to line twists and a long spot till very late. Lesson: A controllability check includes steering and should be done before the hard deck. 3. 2/6/2005 Hawaii, 170 Jumps Malfunction cutaway low. Deployed main around 1500-2000 feet. Cutaway at about 400 feet went belly to earth before the reserve pull. Had lost a canopy about a year before. This may have made him try and stay with the malfunction too long. Lesson: Loss of altitude awareness. An RSL might have helped, but following emergency procedures, to include not busting your hard deck, would have helped as well. 4. 2/14/2005 Hawaii, 3000+ Jumps Hook turn by an experienced jumper under a smaller canopy than he normally jumped. Lesson: Even experience jumpers can get bitten when they try new equipment. 5. 2/16/2005 AZ. 4000 Jumps Jumper landing in a tight area. Panic turn at 40 feet to avoid an obstacle. Lesson: Landing out and walking is always better to trying to make it over obstacles. 6. 2/23/2005 AZ. 163 Jumps Malfunction with lazy cutaway pull resulting in only one side releasing. Jumper then delayed reserve pull until it was too late. Lesson: Emergency procedures should be drilled until they are natural. Emergency procedures are a two-handle operation. 7. 3/5/2005 Snohomish, WA. 190 Jumps Low turn under a high WL (1.3 to1.4 to one). Last canopy was a 210 Specter. Jumper then bought a HP Vision 168 at 150 jumps. Jumper had a good spot, but flew too long on his downwind leg. Turbulence may have played a factor, but a panic turn was the reason for the death. Lesson: Don’t donwnsize too fast. It removes any room for error with dangerous results. Smaller issues such as turbulence can be handled well with a canopy you have experience with. Jumping in turbulent weather with a new canopy is not a great idea 8. 3/5/2005 Perris, CA. 54 Jumps Normal 2 way skydive with normal breakoff. No pull situation unknown reason. AAD was set at home which was 1500 feet lower than DZ elevation. Lesson: Read the manual. Know the operational parameters of your equipment. 9. 4/16/2005 Atlanta Skydiving Center, GA. 1000 Jumps Hook turn 270 turn then double fronts till impact. May have been distracted by a camera crew. Katana 120, which he loaded at around 1.8. Recently switched to a Katana 107. Lesson: New canopy and showing off. New equipment or skills should be learned before additional stress is placed on performance. 10. 4/23/2005 Deland, FL. Experienced An Otter on descent hit the jumper. Lesson: It is wise to try and avoid an active landing pattern. Jump pilots should stay well away from the parachute landing area. 11. 5/1/2005 Dallas, TX. 5000 Jumps Jumper deployed and a line wrapped around his left main flap. This resulted in the main being in tow. Jumper then deployed the reserve and they entangled. Lesson: Not much can be learned from this. Maybe packing was a factor, or maybe it was just a case of bad luck. There was not much the jumper could do. A perfect case of, “You can do everything right and still die” 12. 6/5/2005 Sky Knights, WI. 100 Jumps Malfunction with cutaway and late, some reports say no, reserve pull Lesson: Emergency procedures should be drilled until they are natural. Emergency procedures are a two-handle operation. 13. 7/2/2005 Skydive Wayne County, IN 2100 Jumps Freefall collision between a cameraman and a Tandem pair. Video person flew into the area above the tandem pair. On opening the tandem canopy opened quickly and lunged forward and to the left. The video person hit the TI and the injuries were fatal. Lesson: Getting the perfect shot is not the most important part of any skydive. Stay well away from the area above and below a Tandem. 14. 7/4/2005 Cross Keys, NJ 1500 Jumps Canopy wrap at 150 feet. Jumper followed the left hand pattern rule with a 180. The other jumper was higher and performed a right 270 and hit the lower jumper. Mixing low performance, high performance and higher performance landing approaches is asking for trouble. Low person has the right of way. Lesson: Not much can be said. This jumper was hit from a canopy that came from above doing a different pattern. Communication might have prevented this. But landing in an area where everyone else is trying to land might not be a good idea. Why have exit separation, and why track away at the end of the jump if you are just going to all try and land in the same spot? 15. 7/4/2005 Cross Keys, NJ 2100 Jumps Canopy wrap at 150 feet One jumper followed the left hand pattern rule with a 180. This jumper was higher and performed a right 270 and hit the lower jumper. Lesson: Clear your airspace before you turn. 1. Talk about what people are doing for landing. 2. Don't feel the need to land where everyone else is. 3. Build a stack and fly it. 4. If it is not clear you don't get to hook. 16. 7/4/2005 Cal City, CA. 400 Jumps. 3 lines broke on opening, no emergency procedures were performed. Possible the jumper was knocked out by the opening and died as a result of the landing. Lesson: It is quite possible that a hard opening might have knocked out this jumper. 17. 7/22/2005 San Marcos, TX. 2 Tandems, 1 AFF Jump. He was 72 years old and did not respond to radio contact. Brakes were unstowed, neck was found broken after landing. Lesson: Old age can be a problem in high-risk sports. As the sport becomes easier, older people will jump. Other than imposing medical rules, or age limits; not much can be done to prevent this type of accident. 18. 8/06/2005 Rantoul, IL 4000 Jumps Heavily loaded Vengeance, deployed at normal altitude, resulting in a spinning mal. Jumper rode it ~10 revolutions before cutting away at 800-1000 feet. He then took a fairly long delay before deploying his reserve at a very low altitude. Jumper impacted at reserve line stretch. Lesson: The jumper lost track of altitude and rode a mal well below the recommended altitudes in the SIM. He then took a long delay after the cutaway. An RSL might have prevented this, but remembering that emergency procedures are a two-handle operation and maintaining altitude awareness would have fixed it as well. RSL’s will not help with altitude awareness. Establish a hard deck and PAY ATTENTION TO IT. 19. 8/10/2005 Rantoul, IL. 80 Jumps Jumper cutaway and was in freefall for a few seconds before he went to his reserve. they are speculating he was around 1500 feet when he cutaway and 300 when he deployed. losing altitude awareness is not something an RSL can fix. Lesson: The jumper lost track of altitude and rode a mal well below the recommended altitudes in the SIM. He then took a long delay after the cutaway. An RSL might have prevented this, but remembering that emergency procedures are a two-handle operation and maintaining altitude awareness would have fixed it as well. RSL’s will not help with altitude awareness. Establish a hard deck and PAY ATTENTION TO IT. 20. 8/13/2005 Ogden, UT. 1 jump (Tandem) Gust of wind seems to have collapsed the Tandem canopy as they landed near a building. Lesson: Land safe, not close. Turbulence is invisible and can take down airliners. 21. 8/21/2005 Marana Skydiving Center, AZ. 1 Tandem 2 S/L Jumps On his second Static Line jump, the student exited well, but when he went to pull the Practice Ripcord, he instead mistakenly pulled his cutaway handle. The jerk from the release of the deploying main parachute flipped him on his back and when the RSL released his reserve in this position, the pilot chute shot between his legs and tangled around one of his legs. The pilot chute remained tangled around his leg until impact. Lesson: Drill the dive till it is natural. This is a case where an RSL contributed to the fatality. On the whole RSL’s save more people than they kill, but they do have dangers and jumpers should know the dangers. 22. 9/11/2005 Monroe, GA. 6000+ jumps He had serious medical problems (stroke) regarding cognitive and short-term memory loss. This jumper was a well-respected DZO and jumper years ago. However his medical condition resulted in his losing his FAA medical and not being allowed to jump. He also had his driver’s license revoked for accidents, and at least one DZ only allowed this jumper to do Tandems. D-license# D911, incident was on 09/11/05, possible suicide since the jumper had made 3 jumps that day and several that weekend according to some reports. Lessons: This jumper had been grounded at several DZ’s, had his flying medical and his Drivers License taken away. Many people feel that this person should not have been solo jumping and some feel that this may have been a suicide. This is a tough call to make, but there comes a time when people should not be allowed to jump. The past medical history and personal accounts of his inability to handle complex situations makes me think that when a jumper is grounded by the people that love him…It might be for a good reason. 23. 9/30/2005 East Troy, WI. ??? Jumps Wearing a camera suit. He attempted to deploy his main he pulled his pilot chute through the right wing of the suit resulting in a "horse-shoe" malfunction. His handles were found in place. Also, his hook knife was out and the main bridal was cut a few inches above the attachment point to the D-bag Lesson: Proper care in picking a suit that will not allow a gap that you can reach through is important. More important is that you should never attempt rigging tricks in the air while you are falling at 120 MPH. Stop the skydive. Several people have survived two outs, but no one has survived landing just a pilot chute. 24. 10/16/2005 Skydive the Rockies, CO. 4000+ Low Pull, CYPRES fire with two canopies out resulting in an un-survivable landing. Lessons: Know your gear. AAD’s are great, but as this accident shows they can add problems. Have a hard deck and do not ignore it. 25. 10/30/2005 Skydive Atlanta, GA. 2 Jumps Disabled Student fell out of a harness. Student’s condition made it so they had to be helped to exit. The student slipped down on exit and then went into a “pike” position in freefall. Instructor tried to hold the student and deploy, but he was unable to hold him. Lesson: Tandems are not normal skydives. Handicap Tandems are a world all on their own. Take every precaution to ensure that the TI will be able to control the skydive. This includes, but is not limited to, making sure that you will be able to control the legs of a disabled passenger. 26. 11/5/2005 Perris, CA. 100+ The jumper was observed flying straight and in control until about 2-300 ft. At that time he was over or a bit north of the hanger. He started a spiral and continued until impact. one toggle was stowed and one was unstowed. Lesson: A controllability check includes steering and should be done before the hard deck. Malfunctions are back as the number one killer in this sport. Nine jumpers ignored a hard deck, controllability check, and failed to perform emergency procedures in time to save themselves. Many of these might have been saved by an RSL. However, in most of these cases a jumper started their emergency procedures and failed to complete the second step. Reserve drills should be practiced until they are natural and BOTH handles are pulled all the time. RSL’s save more people than they kill, but jumpers should place more focus on proper emergency procedures and drill them until they are perfect. Landing Issues are lower, but only by one this year. Education seems to be taking hold, but the problem still remains that the jumpers that need the education are the ones that will not take the classes. Even experienced jumpers make mistakes that kill them. The trick to surviving is to minimize the new things and try to control the situations where you try new equipment or stunts. Equipment Issues are hard to fix. Only one death this year could have been prevented by a better selection of equipment (23). Low/No Pulls have always been a problem to determine the reason. Loss of altitude awareness seems to be a major factor in two deaths this year (8, 24). Ironically an AAD might have saved the first one, and it contributed to the fatality in the second case. AAD’s are good, but jumpers should know the limitations and AAD’s do not fix altitude awareness problems. One no pull this year seems to be either a medical issue or a suicide (22). People who have been grounded should not be allowed to jump until cleared by a Doctor. Bizarre accidents happen. Either party staying away from each other’s airspace could have avoided accident number 10 on this list. An accident of this nature is very rare but should remind us that the big sky theory does not work all the time and it should not be relied upon. Tandems are not normal skydives. Handicap Tandems are a world all on their own. Take every precaution to ensure that the TI will be able to control the skydive. This includes, but is not limited to, making sure that you will be able to control the legs of a disabled passenger. This is another accident that is so rare that it has only happened once to the best of my knowledge. Still every precaution must be taken. Canopy Collisions. Lower jumper has the right of way. Obey traffic patterns and it is not necessary to land in the same place as everyone else. Why have exit separation, track away from each other to all pack into the same area and try and land in the same place? Freefall Collision. Stay way from the area above and below a Tandem pair. There are more important things than the perfect shot. Medical Problem. Possibly two, maybe three jumpers this year died either due to or in part due to a medical problem. This is a difficult area. As jumping becomes easier, older jumpers and impaired jumpers will participate. Maybe a medical for jumpers over a certain age, or with known conditions should be required. In one case a hard opening might have played a role. Maybe nothing else was wrong with the jumper until the opening. In another case an older man came to love and want to learn skydiving. The problem is that this sport is not easy, and maybe it needs more physical fitness to participate. In another case we had a very experienced jumper who some consider to be an icon of the sport try to continue jumping after some serious medical issues. This is difficult area and maybe no answer exists. However, a person who wishes to learn to skydive should be in shape, or get a medical for their safety. Jumpers with experience who have been grounded by people who love them…maybe should stay on the ground. Difficult area. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  19. I'd do the tunnel since it will help you. My perfect training program has about 10 min of tunnel, one tandem, five SL jumps, 10 more mins of tunnel and then levels 4-7. Add in 5 low solos with spotting, and a packing class. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  20. We have defined it several times. 1. If I know and trust you and you ask me for permission *and I give it*. Then the distance is talked about and decided on. 2. If I don't know you, don't trust you, you didn't ask, and I never said OK. Then the distance should not matter, but I would guess for ME (Since it will depend on who the "cone" is) would be about 500 feet. And you will not. Only sort off. I can move much better away from a guy under canopy and the closing speed will most likely not kill. If I am under canopy, I will not be nearly as manuverable, and if you hit me or my canopy it could kill me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  21. With 3800 jumps, 14 years of skydiving, pilots licenses, PRO ratings, Instructor ratings...bla..bla...bla, AND WS flight I am quite qualified to assess the risks of a flyby. What makes YOU qualified to assess these risks? Me getting hurt...Maybe, maybe not I would clearly be willing to take that chance if you are risking my life to get your rocks off. Getting arrested? Well once I state you tried to kill me with a reckless stunt, show the USPA's BSR's on wingsuit flight, your posts on here about how much fun it is, and your lack of concern for the "cones"...Doubt it. I tried to explain why we didn't like it, and all I got for you and others was "fear", "cones", "Do it without them knowing". I think YOU need to work on your conflict resolution skills. You even admit you are "Pushing buttons". Thats pretty childish. You had an opportunity to get some good discussion started that might save lives or atleast make the image of WS flight not look like a buch of selfish yahoos who don't care about anyone else....Instead you started a game. When push comes to shove...Do you think the DZ would rather have a few happy WS folks and fly a Cessna, or a bunch of happy other jumpers that fill an Otter? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  22. I still don't like people to fly right next to me in formation unless I know them and trust them. Why sould I be OK with some guy I don't know flying a WS near me if I don't like some guy under canopy near me. The big difference is that under canopy I can get away....The WS buzz takes one second and I have no options. My big problem is people who think its OK to do no matter how I feel about it. Like I said if I don't want someone I don't know flying a canopy 50 feet from me at close to the same speed...Why would I be OK with some guy I don't know buzzing me at a 60-100 MPH difference? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  23. I felt the same way. Now I take fewer chances. I think the sport starts pretty much all consuming. Its easy to fall in love with the sport and think anything is worth it when its shinny and new. You annoy your friends that don't jump with jump stories and lose many of them in the process. One day you realize that skydiving, while fun, is not life itself. And things change. I still have to think that if I were truely injured I woudl think its not worth it. And I knwo people who said exactly that. But living in a room watching TV as your life is not worth it either. So its a balance. You take the risks and minimse them as much as you can. If it still happens I think you will regret it. I don't see how you can't. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  24. It was me. I think its a good question. I think any question that makes people think is a good question. However, you will get many responses from people who will not think about the question and just knee jerk an answer. Pretty common and to be expected. No one like to think about what could happen, even if it is a good thing to think about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
  25. Thats because it will vary by person (both buzzer and buzzie). And the situation. A planned buzz job by Rob Jones or Chuck Blue under my personal canopy at 3 grand could get a bunch closer to me than some random guy with me under a Tandem canopy at 2 grand. See the difference from the cones perspective? To you its just a canopy to play with, but to me its the difference of looking for a cool buzz job, or while trying to be a safe TI getting some yahoo maybe freaking out my student. Totally different situations and the distance will be different. Dude, Im not old...That has to be some kind of personal attack, I'm only 33 Funny thing though...I wonder what you will be like with 10 more skydiving years behind you. Back when I had a few hundred jumps I used to do some really dumb shit (low pulls were the cool thing) and I have been in freefall below 1,000 enough times to get a license in it. Thing is, I would not do it today. Maybe I am old? But the difference was that the only person I would have killed was me. I was not risking anyones life to get my fun. Not dramtic, I have done it. Doug Wolf and myself. We ended up getting the pin so low that we had to hook turn the two stack. Not smart, but then again I had a few hundred jumps and thought I was bullet proof. And others will have different reactions. ALL of this can be avoided by not getting close to people who you didn't ask and get permission. If someone tells you its OK, ask how close you can get and then its a done deal....No need to guess. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334