Ron

I find it funny you work for a DZ in the area and claim to just want facts. Trespassing while in an emergency will not get you into trouble. Sounds to me like you are starting shit because you are scared of a new DZ in the area. This is funny :"They(the professional pilots) consider this to be a serious situation that they cannot compromise on because of their liability to the critically ill and wounded for the sake of our recreational sport" Its a common falicy used when you don't have a logical argument....."Think of the ill!" It's called, Apeal to Emotion. Hoping that by trying to stir people emotions you get an illogical response. So far you have: 1. Threatend that people who land off will get thrown in jail. 2. Appealed to the dangers of being in the area with helicopters...Tried to instill fear. 3. Tried to use emotion about ill people dying due to some people trying to have fun. The best part is you came on here and claimed than no one outside the area should bother to care...But you came on a World Wide forum and tried to plead/mislead your case. That ladies and gentelman is IRONY "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Get a piece of paper and a pen....I'll wait. Now lie on your stomach on the floor. Bend your lower legs 90 degress to the floor. (With booties...w/o they will be extended a little bit) Its a little windy so you need to hold the paper with both hands. Now write a letter to your Mom...You really should do this more anyway. Notice that your hands are down and in front of your face? thats where they need to be for grips. Your arms should be up about 45 degrees and your hands in front of your chin about 8-10 inches away from your face. And notice that you are supporting your upper body with your elbows down? That will bring your head up and let you see more, and it cups the air so you can move it better. And your legs are level with the horizon...This allows them to be more effective. Now finish the letter and dispatch it quick...Your Mom misses you. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey hero...People don't insure stuff all the time, and a signature release is not a requirement. I know you are upset, but no reason to jump all over everyone for asking a question. As for FedEx...They have the best rating for a reason. And it seems people always take things for granted till something goes wrong and then that thing instantly sucks. PM sent. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That really sucks "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well at this event you had to have an AAD. But you could still jump without one at most places. So here you might not have been able to jump, but in most cases you could be on the next load...The Vigil guys had to get a repack and a new cutter. (Which is less of a pain than sending the unit back yes, but still a "locked" CYPRES does not cause a danger like a reserve being opened.) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But the fact the Vigil fires below 120 feet being good is a matter of opinion. I personally think it does not matter. The thing that does matter to me is an AAD that misfires. We have not determined if this was a "misfire" or if the Vigil performed exactly like it was designed to fire. I hope we find out at some time. Airtec has already answered. Either way I think a misfire is bad and a default of "fire when confused" is bad as well. Lets say that two devices have a misfire or confused rate of 1/1000 events. (pretty good if you ask me). One is designed to shut down and the other is designed to fire when "confused". Now with a device with a design of NOT firing when confused . I have 3800 jumps and out of those I maybe was AAD fire altitude 3 times and since I have never had an AAD fire I have "needed" an AAD a total of zero times. So my chance of needing the AAD and it not firing is incredably small. Now take a device that has a plan of firing when confused. With a ratio of 1/1000 I would have 3.8 possible misfires already. I would rather have an AAD that does not fire when confused over an AAD that fires when confused anyday. Or in other words, Id rather have an AAD that does not work on the rare occasion that I needed it, than one that fires and CAUSES a problem. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My CYPRES1 has a removeable cutter...So unless it locks out thats all I would have to do as well. And AFAIK ALL CYPRES2's have removeable cutters. CYPRES1's not the CYPRES2's had a problem. In this case the VIGIL guys had to get a cutter and repack while they CYPRES1 guys could still jump (Sans CYPRES), and the CYPRES2 guys could still jump even with an AAD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Actually, the guy posted that the unit saw an altitude BELOW ground level. -2300 feet according to the post and shut down. The Vigil saw the same event and decided to fire. The CYPRES2 saw the same event and did nothing. It *seems* to be a difference in how each unit responds to the same stimuli. The CYPRES1 seeing no need to fire below ground level, shut off and shut down. The Vigil (if it was the reason) decided to fire. The CYPRES2 did nothing. I would rather the device know its not needed to fire and do nothing, than shut down. But I would also rather the unit shut down instead of fire. Now maybe the Vigil was not designed to "default fire" and it is another issue. I'll wait to see what Vigil says. Either way my personal choice would be for it not to fire and be fine (CYPRES2), followed by not fire and lock out (CYPRES1), than fire (Vigil). You may have other rankings...But I would rather an AAD not fire than misfire. Since in my eyes an AAD is a backup that should not be needed...Instead of something that could fire and cause problems. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think the Vigill did what it was designed to do. It was in a weird situation and its default is to fire. The CYPRES1's were in the same situation and they decided to shut down and not fire. I think this is a safer default than firing. The CYPRES2's worked fine. They did not sense the issue and a big deal and did nothing. Based on that only...I'd rather have a CYPRES2, then a CYPRES1 then a Vigil. I'd rather it not get "spooked" and if it did get spooked not fire as a defult. I think thats safer. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, I still work on it 3,000 jumps later. I hate landing off. At times...Such as spotting a Demo into a stadium in a Valley in PA at night. Anxious is good. Makes you sharper. Practice is the only way to learn it. That requires doing it and getting it wrong. As long as you learn from the mistakes you are still learning and moving forward. Relax, you don't have to be perfect to get the license....Remember you already said that you know folks that screw up with 500 jumps...They have a license right? Besides I would rather you know how to spot than have any license. A license is not a life saving skill, spotting IS. Just relax and DO IT. It will take quite a few spots before you get a good idea, and then quite a few more before you can do it pretty well...The key is just to not give up and keep going. I find it a shame that few know how to spot. It is so important, but they never learn. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK so you admit I never said that only an idiot would use one and that you just assumed that. One thing you should really know about me is I tend to just say what I think. I think people who rely on them are idiots. Not people who learn both the benefits and risks and make an informed choice. I think anyone that adds or removes a device without knowing the good and the bad sides is an idiot. 1. Have 4 malfunctions a year. That is at every repack actually pull your handles with your rigger watching. I try to do this if I can with BOTH my rigs. 2. Ride the harness. Don't be afraid to go ask an instructor to use the hanging harness. Saftey day is coming and a great opportunity to do it....But it does not have to be saftey day. I know very few instructors that would turn someone away that wanted to practice or learn. 3. PLAN ahead. Not sure if you can handle a violent mal? Then don't be in a hurry to jump a super HP canopy. One thing a ton of folks forget is they think they can fly a "Hyperstyle 50", but the canopy is gonna mal much more violent and they have to be ready for ALL aspects of jumping a canopy. How many have read where I told people to do a hop n pop on their current main and keep the brakes stowed. At about 4 grand release only one (With your hand in the other toggle ready to release it). Let it spin for about 500-1000 feet and count how many revolutions it took to lose that altitude....Know that a real deal mal will be worse, but if it took 10 revolutions to lose 1,000 feet then know that if you pull at 2500 you have about 7 revolutions before you are past your hard deck...So make the choice that if it spins more than 5 you get rid of it. And how many have actually done it? There are three things and only one of them carries ANY risk. And that risk is tiny. The #1 thing you could do and I wish we could make it happen?....Real live cutaways with 3 canopies. Sunpath had a great rig that had a normal main and reserve AND a reserve that attached to the front with a CYPRES in it. A GREAT setup. Have a guy do a hop n pop for his 100th jump and pull both handles. More dangerous yes, but not unworkable. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thank God someon gets it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, cause people like you try to ignore it exists. Again, its pretty simple. If you would not make a hop n pop without a device you ARE dependant on it. Thats not opinion, thats fact. You could try and debate if thats bad, but you can't debate that there is device dependance. Its not irrational to assume it if they tell you that they will not jump without it. It then become a question of why. "I might get knocked out" ....OK but very few jumpers are "saved" by an AAD due to being knocked out. Most are saved for just screwing up. So if they are afraid of screwing up...Then they should train more, or get another hobby. THEN once they feel safe enough to jump without the toys then they can add them for even more saftey, not just use them as a substitute for confidence and training. It makes even MORE sense to avoid that jump. Why put yourself into a situation that you might need a device to save your ass? Going on more dangerous jumps than with a device than you would without it...IS device dependancy. You are allowing your personal danger level to excede what you would be comfertable with due to the device...That IS THE DEFINITION OF DEPENDANCY. Sure it does if they use those devices as a saftey blanket. And I know people who do. Its pretty clear that a person who will not jump without those devices is not comfertable with the danger level of the sport...If they must have those devices they are dependant on them. Thats not really debatable. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Only jumping because you have one, or going on more dangerous skydives with one that you would not do without DOES. Its really simple. If you will not jump without one, then you do not have the confidence to jump without one. That is a fact no matter how you want to play it. The question is why? Nope, but depending on them is. And it DOES speak volumes on your confidence level if you would not jump without one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The proof is in the accident. 18. 8/06/2005 Rantoul, IL 4000 Jumps Heavily loaded Vengeance, deployed at normal altitude, resulting in a spinning mal. Jumper rode it ~10 revolutions before cutting away at 800-1000 feet. He then took a fairly long delay before deploying his reserve at a very low altitude. Jumper impacted at reserve line stretch. Lesson: The jumper lost track of altitude and rode a mal well below the recommended altitudes in the SIM. He then took a long delay after the cutaway. An RSL might have prevented this, but remembering that emergency procedures are a two-handle operation and maintaining altitude awareness would have fixed it as well. RSL’s will not help with altitude awareness. Establish a hard deck and PAY ATTENTION TO IT. This jumper blew past almost every hard deck you can imagine while under a spinning mal. He rode a highly loaded HP canopy 10 revolutions before cutting away. He then took a *long* delay from 800-1000 feet. The jumper lost track of altitude. *I have cut away from 800 feet without an RSL and I am still here.* I had MUCH less experience than this jumper. But I knew that from 800 feet I could not take a delay. An RSL will not give you altitude awareness. An RSL might have saved him, but using both handles would have had the same chance. The next one: 19. 8/10/2005 Rantoul, IL. 80 Jumps Jumper cutaway and was in freefall for a few seconds before he went to his reserve. they are speculating he was around 1500 feet when he cutaway and 300 when he deployed. losing altitude awareness is not something an RSL can fix. This jumper went from 1500 to 300 before he deployed. Yes, and RSL would have maybe saved him, but why in the world would you smoke past 1,000 feet with nothing out? In BOTH of these deaths its pretty clear that they both failed to remember that emergency procedures are a TWO part operation. Hey, people can screw up and these two show that experience (as in jump numbers) does not mean you will not. There are many malfunctions that never end in an RSL or AAD save, instead the jumper just pulls both handles. The key is in the training. I think if you really think about it, you know at least one jumper that does not share the "Train" part of that equation and instead just uses the "RSL" part. Again only idiots rely on them. And one thing most dead skydivers have in common was they were not gonna burn in. People who hook in think they are skilled enough also. Just goes to show that people need to TRAIN MORE huh? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Show me where I said that. You make a ton of claims that are not based in fact. I have said only idiots RELY on them. That is a BIG difference. Look this is simple. If you will not jump without a device, but will with it. You are dependant on it. Thats not a hard concept to grasp. If you will not skydive without an RSL or AAD you are dependant. Now, I have two rigs one with an AAD and one without. I jump BOTH. I PREFER to jump the AAD rig. I am not device dependant since I will do without what I would do with. You can continue to make false claims all day. You can continue to try and debate english if you like alone. I have no idea why you feel the need to try continue and ignore what I write and twist my words just to argue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What I am is Anti-"RSL's are perfect, and you would be an idiot to not jump with one." Some people think you are as good as dead if you don't have an AAD or RSL. That is bad thinking IMO. But its quite common. So maybe I come accross as Anti-AAD. But if people bother to read what I write they can see thats not true...I am against trusting the damn thing and not training like your life depends on it. We should NEVER forget that our #1 job is to survive. And while adding saftey toys is a part of that plan, training and practice can prevent needing the toys in the first place. The 1-10-100 principle (or "A stich in time, saves nine). If I fix the problem at the first step it prevents me from spending more energy fixing it latter. The thing is most "saves" are nothing that a jumper could not have done themselves if they planned and trained correctly. The safest and best fix is to do the right thing, and the only way to do that is train, not depend on the RSL or AAD. If I plan a safe jump with a safe pull altitude and jump a safe canopy (all dependant on the person). I can fix most problems before they start. However, if a take a newer jumper, put him on a head down bigway, with a canopy known to take a long time to open and has a higher mal rate...Who is safer? Fix the problem early. Problem is many times we put people into this exact situation and they don't die since nothing bad happend...We assume that its OK to do it more. Not only is the dive above the guys head, the plan bad, and the equipment not ideal, now I have a jumper that treats the dive as "normal"...Problem is, something happens and now he is already behind the saftey curve by being set up to fail. He might manage to pull it off, or his saftey toys might save his ass. I'd rather they realize that they can fix most problems before they need the safety toys if they use their head and train. If that person knows both the good and bad then decides that an RSL or AAD is for them. Then they are safer than just someone who got an RSL or AAD because they think jumping without them is death on a stick. Skydiving is an active sport...You must take an ACTIVE roll in staying alive, not just trust some 3 dollar shackle. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Go try Moes...Much better. I'd rank them: 1.Moes (by a long shot) 2.Freebirds 3.Chipolte Moes is also cheaper and they give you free chips unlike the other two. Now, I'm hungry "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats because you have a hard rule about it. You stop before you get out of control. Sorry I have a hard time with that. Alcohol does effect people differently, but one pretty common theme is they lose the ability to make good judgements. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, it was tounge in cheek, but the sticky part is "intent". It's hard to prove intent. "Did you plan to land that?" Yep, but in the middle it didn't seem safe, so I cut it away. And as for breaking FAR's the most abused one is packers. Not many have rigger tickets, and "under supervision" I have seen to be read as "Able to call at home and ask a question." I remember the 50 year pack job now. But the law says 120 so its kinda hard to tell someone anything else. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Here is what *I have already done". I let them stay in the mantis. The objective of the skydive is to be stable, not in only one position. So if they can be stable in the mantis....they can stay in the mantis. Now, in most of these cases I have done I was both the tunnel Instructor for them, or I knew the tunnel Instructor and we had talked. I would be warry of anyone just walking up and saying they were good in the mantis. I would make them either, show me some tape or start in a hard arch and when I gave them permission in freefall transition to the mantis. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or he could have changed his ways since this tread started. I know quite a few jumpers that were "Craters waiting for grid co-ordinates" that changed over time to be safe and very good jumpers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"Current" depends on the person as everyone else said. However being current is the safest thing you can do for yourself. Life is about having fun, so I would still jump, but only do safer jumps. Don't push it, just do some fun, low preasure jumps. I would not stop, since to be honest there is never a good time to do a hobby. More important things always come along. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, cool huh? In truth, like Bill said, I would not worry about the main as long as it was stored in good conditions. I have seen some rigs stored in such bad conditions I would not jump them after 120 days. But I know of at least one test where the rigger left it packed for 2 years and it worked fine. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats kinda funny. But to be honest, I have no problem admitting when you are right. Your not stupid and say some good things. The difference is that most times on here that people don't reply when they agree. And that can seem to cause problems. In truth most times you and I disagree on only a few issues and neither lets it drop. So I have no fear of agreeing with you....On that rare case when you are right "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334