Ron

I have to say, that was very well written. I like to say "The ground is filled with people who thought they had skills." But that sounds almost fortune cookieish after what you wrote. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What if I did it at 1200 feet and it was not planned? I have done quite a bit of CRW (Was on a rotation team years ago) so I feel confidant that I could do it, and to be honest you not knowing I was planning on it does not really matter to the dock....Is it still cool with you? But what if MY idea of safe enough is not yours? I mean 50 MPH buzz 10 feet away....Unless you start to run you will be fine. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you got guys like this who I don't wnat anywhere near me...And if they buzz me without asking we will have a problem http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2032860#2032860 Any wonder about why we think of some of them like we do? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really. What we have is a bunch of guys that don't trust you to play games with our lives saying so. I don't think thats unreasonable. Zhills has no such attitude. you may think there is one, but there is not. Zhills does like people to try and be safe and they don't much like circus stunt antics risking others for grins. Hell this is a DZ that atleast every year some jackass tries to jump the fire pit on new years....One time the guy burned his hands so bad his flesh was running off his hands like water....He knew the risks...He took them and he paid the price. No one got upset at that. The issue is unplanned and uncommunicated buzz jobs of people under canopy. Not WS flight in general. Some people LIKE BUZZ jobs....Great, fine as long as they agree to it, buzz the shit out of them. But respect that not everyone wants to be your target to play with. Or maybe its ego filled "I know better than you my mad skills and you don't know shit" DZ.commers that don't respect that fact we all have to play nice. Case in point "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are OK with someone you don't know using you as a toy when the cost of a mistake could very easily kill you? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

*Seeing* and being buzzed are two totally different things. When I SEE a person open near me I am not totally pissed. I talk to that person about seperation. When a guy TELLS me he did it on purpose case it was "fun", and I was a "cone" or "gate"...Then I get pissed. He has no right to write checks with my body. Accidents are one thing, doing something that endangers me for fun is another subject. Yep...Show me once where I said that seeing a guy is enough? Go ahead..ONE. I said if you use me for a target to get your jollies expect me to be pissed. How would you like it if when you opened I came in and top docked your canopy? I can do it safely, done it a bunch. Or how would you like it if when you are walking from the parking lot I come running in in my car past you at 50MPH? I have been driving A LOT longer than you have been jumping....So it would be cool with you right? I mean as long as in my opinion I made sure I would miss you and all, right? Uh, you guys got that forum locked by thinking it was "fun" to risk others and we should not get pissed about it. I just mentioned that if you use me for fun and risk my life, expect something in return. Dude...I'm not pissed. You have not buzzed me without permission. I just said what I would do if it happend. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

As a TI if you use me as a "gate" we will have a problem. Ya think that maybe you always get grief because you always run around like you already have it all fiqured out? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A few ego maniacs, that think they know more than anyone else, will do great damage to your tiny aspect of the sport. I get buzzed without my permission, the bird and I *will* fight about it. I had been thinking about doing more BM stuff...But if attitudes like yours are the norm, I'd rather not. I'm done here....Have fun, fly into a cliff for all I care, but remember, "your freedom ends where my safety starts". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We got into threats when people said they like to use me as a cone without reguard to my feelings about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you hit me when you buzz me under canopy you could very well kill me. Cool, lets take a vote. A) Rational skydivers not wanting to be someones swoop toy at the risk of being killed, vs. B) Ego maniacs that think they have mad skills and should be able to do as they please risking who they want in the process. There are a few folks I would let "buzz" me (Rob Jones, Chuck Blue, Scott.....Ray Dutch already has). But those folks have the common sense to know to ask before they make someone an unwilling participant in their "fun". People who do it without permission are assholes and dangerous. With this I realize that this is the Wing suit forum and I will not find much sympathy here.....But buzz me without permission and you will not find much sympathy from me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My, I guess it is fear. My fear is your ego is bigger than your skill set. Well that statement proves your ego is big. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its not about fear, its about how some idiots think they have skills they don't and are willing to risk MY life for their thrill. You wanna risk your own neck? Great, have a blast and if you fuck up, make a big mark with your blood. You wanna buzz me? We are gonna talk about it, and if you do it without my permission. I'm gonna hurt ya. You are risking my life thinking you are good enough. I disagree. Attitudes like yours are why Birdmen are getting flack. Its not about my fear, its about your ego and you using my body to puff your ego up. Notice that quite a few GOOD fliers have said its stupid? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If it buzzes the people on the ground I don't cheer. The pilot has no right to risk others to get his jollies. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I do not give a shit about his flying skills. I give a shit about the attutide that he has the right to endanger me if he feels like it. Your right to "fun" ends at my right to not be endangered. You may think you are skilled enough and there is no risk. But that does not give you the right to make assumptions with my life. The ground is filled with people who thought they had skills. I don't care if he is the best WS pilot in the world. Buzz me without consent and we are gonna talk about it...continue to do it and we will have a big problem. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No. You do not have the right to endanger me for your fun. I wonder how some of these guys would like to do a little Stiletto CRW after they open? Hey, it's safe, *I* know what I am doing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

YOU think its safe, I don't. Since its my ass on the line as well you have no right to risk my ass for your fun. BTW I have flown a WS and have a bunch of other aviation related crap behind me. You with less than 500 jumps think you know more than people with 1,000's. AMAZING. Buzz me without my consent and we WILL talk about it on the ground. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The skydiver in question is one of the best people I know of. If she got pissed it means someone did something stupid. Sr. AFF I, World Champ, Full time Master rigger....She is no "Newbie" and understands the risks better than most. YOU have no right to risk ME without my consent. Attitudes like yours are going to create bad blood against WS fliers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Key words being, "Both parties knew the risks". If you ask permission and I give it...Its OK. If you just buzz me for fun, expect me to get pissed since you risked my life for your fun with out me having any say so.....So expect me to have my say when you land. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Buzz me without planning it and me agreeing and I will have and issue when we get on the ground. Unplanned buzzing is not cool. I don't care how skilled you think you are. I have been buzzed by my friends when they asked me before hand and it can be quite cool. But for some yahoo jackass to do it without my prior permission is endangering me with out my wishes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Done. I think its a shame that climbers can use the park, but not BASE. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sabre Toggles (for a small dog) Spot Pud PC Or maybe just give the dog the name that fits him best after a week or so and not try to make a name to fit the sport. Edit: Had a dog named swoop once....forgot about him. Ex-wife named him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Shogun is nice...But my next E-heli will be a Trex. Much better from what I can tell. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I didn't know the twist was so fast.... Anyway just put new paddles on my Shogun helicopter and started learning to fly inverted....What a mind trip. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We have misfires now....Imagine a misfire that cut away one riser? Again, adding stuff just makes the opportunity for more problems. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes and it kinda proves my point. Making a device with multi-modes ADDED a step that was not needed, or at the very least complicated a step. People are going to make mistakes...If they didn't we would not need an AAD. But the more things you pack onto an AAD the more chances of something going wrong. The CYPRES was so popular since it was so easy to use. The Astra had some features that made it never take hold since it was more difficult to use. Adding features that can cause accidents is not a step forward. Yes accidents that could be avoided if people payed attention....But if people payed attention AAD's would not be needed at all. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334