Ron

Well the wonderful thing about not having an RSL is you can decide if you want the reserve to open NOW or later. With an RSL you have no choice. An RSL can cause problems that can be avoided 100% by proper procedures. Have a hard deck, don't go blowing past it. Pull both handles. If you are low don't take a delay. See what you fail to admit is a person can deploy the reserve before a cutaway, with a cutaway, right after, you can take a delay.....ECT all without an RSL. With an RSL you can only do one. If you wrap on opening with someone. Well do you want an RSL in a wrap? In most cases you want to be able to fall away from the mess. Thats why most CReW folks don't use an RSL. Theres one case where it could cause a problem. And most RSL "saves" is the direct result of someone not performing proper procedures. Clearly you didn't read the incident reports. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2036839#2036839 #3. . 2/6/2005 Hawaii, 170 Jumps Malfunction cutaway low. Deployed main around 1500-2000 feet. Cutaway at about 400 feet went belly to earth before the reserve pull. Had lost a canopy about a year before. This may have made him try and stay with the malfunction too long. He cutaway at 400 feet. That is WAY below the hard deck. He was screwed when he cut away, an RSL might not have helped. Cutting away before he was at 400 feet might have. #6. 2/23/2005 AZ. 163 Jumps Malfunction with lazy cutaway pull resulting in only one side releasing. Jumper then delayed reserve pull until it was too late. Lazy cutaway and failure to fix it till late. # 12. 6/5/2005 Sky Knights, WI. 100 Jumps Malfunction with cutaway and late, some reports say no, reserve pull Failed to pull the other handle. Emergency procedures are a TWO handle operation. #18. 8/06/2005 Rantoul, IL 4000 Jumps Heavily loaded Vengeance, deployed at normal altitude, resulting in a spinning mal. Jumper rode it ~10 revolutions before cutting away at 800-1000 feet. He then took a fairly long delay before deploying his reserve at a very low altitude. Jumper impacted at reserve line stretch. Cutaway low, lost track of altitude. When you don't know where you are, dont take a delay. 19. 8/10/2005 Rantoul, IL. 80 Jumps Jumper cutaway and was in freefall for a few seconds before he went to his reserve. They are speculating he was around 1500 feet when he cutaway and 300 when he deployed. losing altitude awareness is not something an RSL can fix. Ditto. One cutaway way too low. Four failed to pull the reserve. Two might have been saved by an RSL, but all 4 would have also lived if they pulled the reserve. All four lost track of altitude. An RSL will not give you altitude awareness. BTW there were two fatalities this year that were the result of "safety" equipment. 21. 8/21/2005 Marana Skydiving Center, AZ. 1 Tandem 2 S/L Jumps On his second Static Line jump, the student exited well, but when he went to pull the Practice Ripcord, he instead mistakenly pulled his cutaway handle. The jerk from the release of the deploying main parachute flipped him on his back and when the RSL released his reserve in this position, the pilot chute shot between his legs and tangled around one of his legs. The pilot chute remained tangled around his leg until impact 24. 10/16/2005 Skydive the Rockies, CO. 4000+ Low Pull, CYPRES fire with two canopies out resulting in an un-survivable landing. With out the RSL in the first one, or the AAD in the second these two might still be alive. So we have 2 people that might have been saved if they had an RSL. But they could also have been saved by not taking a long delay. And we have two that died and had no options since the safety devices contributed to the accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know. The origianl Swift was a 5cell reserve (Swift + was 7 cells). But it was also a boat and not a canopy that I would see line twists as normally something serious. I just showed it as an example that even a docile canopy can be a problem with twists. You are correct that a higher loaded canopy will be worse however, so people should pick a reserve using common sense, not ego or style. If a round twists up enough, it gets smaller. While I agree that 99% of the time a round with line twists is not an issue. It can be. My point is simply that while stats show that you are infact safer with an RSL. I want people to know that they can infact *cause* problems and the only time it is useful is when people screw up due to lack of training. I would rather the focus be on better training and drilling, then ADD an RSL if you want. Rather than just assume an RSL will save you and not put any effort into training and drilling. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I call it "The Kicken Chicken" from my SCUBA days, but the guys around here call ti the chicken dance. It had blade grips. You know the hole where you put the bolt through? Imagine if you took a saw and cut from the hole to the end of the blade. There was a perfect "U" as if it just spun so fast it ripped out. YIKES! Just another example of a newbie not knowing something was dangerous, I thought it was OK...This time in a different hobby. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And thats the problem. Success is a muther. You do pretty well, and then you think its cake. Then one bites you. Up to almost the second you hit, you think you have it made. Ever wonder why we always preach safety and people ignore us? Its only that one second before you hit that you realize that there is a problem. Many of us have seen it so often...We see it long before that one jump. I should know. My 350 ish jump I creamed in. I thought I was going to have the swoop of the year till I hit. Others saw it coming long before I got on the plane. I didn't see it till I hit. One group told me to get a 97 Stiletto, one said to get the 120. If I had listend to the 1st group, I might have died. The 1st group was my friends. They told me I would be fine. The second group was John LeBlanc, and some old pain in the ass jumpers that were always preaching saftey. Glad I listened to the second group. The point is: YOU often think you are "good to go" Your friends often don't know either, or you avoid those who don't agree with your self image. Sorry you left, glad to see you did it on your terms. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Here is another. A Startrac is very docile, so is a swift. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Funny story. I have a Shogun with a brushless 400. I set it up with an old Lipo 1500 battery (the only one I had. Well it seems that the battery was really worn down. I bought some more lipo's 1320 and 1700. The head speed jumped up a bit...But Im new to heli's and don't know much so I never worried about it. Anyway I had wood blades on it and was flying it around at the field. It was flying weird, so I brought it in to land. The landing was not perfect, but not bad...The thing just blew up. I sat there shocked while my shogun was doing the chicken dance. Everyone that saw it thought it was a soft landing, but the thing just blew apart. One blade was found 30 feet away and the section between the hole and the edge towards the head was gone like it was cut with a knife. Anyway it was not a blade strike since the boom was perfect. I took it to the hobby shop and rebuilt it there. For the maiden after the repair the LHS owner took it up...Before it spooled all the way up he shut it down and said ,"Damn, what head speed do you have?" It seems the speed was so fast that it just threw the balde. YIKES! For glow everyone said to get heavy blades once I break the wood ones I have now. They say they are stiffer and better for auto's. I plan on buying a Raptor soon. Once I either go as far as I can with the Venture .50 I have, or make a smoking hole with it "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Really? I found the foam blades to have a quicker response time. I have wood blades on there now, but the stock shogun blades were really quick on the cyclic. I was told that light paddles and light blades make the cyclic faster. If light paddles work better...Would'nt light blades have the same effect? I have only been flying helis since Sept/Oct, so I don't know. What do you think? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I took my cherry Goldburg Chipmunk. I mean the thing is perfect, no wrinkles in the covering cowl fits like a glove...Most perfect plane I own. Very proud of it. Anyway had it in the trailer I take to the field (5' X 10' feet, shelf in the front so I can put my 1/3 scale Pitts). Anyway, my Sig Hog Bipe works itself loose and performs a half flip swan dive from the shelf. Makes a perfect OS .91 outline of the head in the covering and breaks a rib. I was not happy, but the repair came out pretty good. You can't tell unless you know to look for it. In other news had my first extended Heli inverted hover today. Made 4 flights and was able to hold an inverted hover for about 2 mins a couple of times. Also had my first nose in landing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Dude, there have been fatalities where guys had enough line twist on ROUNDS that they didnt survive the landing. Line twists are better than nothing, but line twists are not good, and they can happen no matter what canopy you jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I taught myself to fly heli's with the blade. (I did have 20 years of planes behind me). Get the training gear. Like someone else said make sure that you learn to hover tail in/nose out. Don't even lift it off the ground till you can control the tail and keep it pointing at you. (one thing, as the battery goes from full charge to low, the tail will start moving to the right and as the battery lowers and it requires more pitch the tail will want to move left.) If the tail moves more than 20 deg or so, shut it down and point it back in the right direction. Once you can keep the tail pointed at you, start moving the tail laft and right and bring it back to the starting position. Then lift it off a few inches. This will make it much easier to learn. Once you can hover a full battery, then start sliding left and right keeping the tail still pointing at you. Also work on forward and back. Then start holding the heli in place and turning it left and right. Then start fiqure 8's in a large area. The Blade took a ton of abuse and kept flying. I still fly it in my living room, but have moved on to a Shogun and a .50 sized heli. I have never used training gear on any of the other helis, and have started some acro. I got the Blade in Sept. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It's the start of the year and 4-way teams are beginning to form. The people forming these groups know that a team is fun, and a great way to learn. Skydive Dallas is supporting the Thunder Project and the Thunder Project wants to support Skydive Dallas and the jumpers here. So you ask, "What does this have to do with me?" The answer is that Thunder is going to have a free day of 4-way coaching on Sunday, February 5th. Bring your team, make up a team, or just show up and we will help try to form a team for you on the spot. The day will include: Pre-dive help with engineering Creeping skills Exit help Video review (video arrangements will be up to you) This is a great opportunity to start the season in the right way and have some fun doing it. Pesky Details: Be at the DZ at 8AM ready to get on the first load. Rig in date. Have your own draw ready (I'd suggest a random dive to warm up). Be ready to learn. In case of bad weather, seminars will be held covering the same topics. So show up anyway and learn. The amount of coaching available depends on how many groups show up. Rest assured you will get attention and the DZ will work on making it so you get the jumps. Ron Hill Thunder 06 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The line twists were not spinning the canopy. The canopy flew perfectly straight ahead, but *I* was spinning under it. Twice that has happend to me, and not once has my PD113 even thought about turning. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

While I think you are correct in your thoughts....That does not make it ok to forget about trying to do things the right way. Dylan Thomas.....I think you know what I mean. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

On the flip side, your experience shows that those same families would have been happy if the jumper had CORRECTLY performed the emergency procedures. Instead of putting the focus on getting new toys that can cause problems...How about we focus on training to prevent someone from cutting away and not pulling the reserve? Remember the is one family this year that migth have been happy if the jumper DID NOT have an RSL. After they have the emergency procedures practiced and trained. THEN add an RSL if they want as an added step, not a replacement for training and practice. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Except you keep forgetting about drag. Your example of a rock on a line is cool and all, but rocks don't have arms or legs. These arms and legs are going to cause drag that will try to either make a skydiver belly to earth, if in an arch, or back to earth if fetal. So in your theory that a cutaway will throw a jumper directly away from the axis of rotation would be great....Except, that would mean in a perfect standing position. And as soon as you are free from the main, I very much doubt you could maintain that position and maintain stable in a standing position going feet first away from the axis of rotation. I have 6 mals and only once was I ever perfectly stable after the cutaway, and that was from a stable but uncontrolable mal. BTW on that jump I had line twists on the reserve also. So I can imagine the forces. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry, to be honest I have no idea how to even start doing that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its normal, but not smart. Yes, and it has killed people. The little gliders and the little Blade CP does not have enough energy to kill, but it can do some damage. But, a 40 sized sport plane is fast and heavy enough to kill. And a .30 sized heli can kill as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They will fly away, but they could still tumble. The mass and momentum will be in a direct line, but that will not prevent a person from continuing to spin or maybe tumble. Newtons 1st law. And for application, I have video of me cutting away from a mal and spinning like a rag doll. I was low and did not take a delay and had line twists. Line twists are better than landing just a container, but no line twists are better. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do you want a hotel, or a place to crash? Holliday inn is a good deal for a hotel, and bunk hoses are about 15 night. If you want a bunk house PM me and I'll give you a contact. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Zaggis are pretty good. Get the powered one and get atleast a 4channel radio so you can upgrade later and not need another radio. If you get into the hobby you will find a good 4 channel is a min, and that any 2 or 3 channels will be just a waste. Also the cost is not much more....A local hobby shop (that I spend WAY to much time at has a JR 4 channel for 130.00) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What do you have your V curves set as? Right now I have Normal set to hover at about half stick. V1 set to hover at 3/4, and just a tad of a throttle curve at the bottom (not enough to hover, but enough for standard loops and rolls) V2 set as a perfect V with inverted hover at 1/4 upright at 3/4. Also do you suggest I fly in V2 most of the time, or flip into it for fun and back for landing... I have gotten different answers from very good pilots and am interested in your opinion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Asking a question is not speculation. Its asking a question. BIG difference. Again I will ask...Can you explain why they have more accidents than many larger DZ's? Thats a question. Speculation would be, "Maybe that the instructors are all part time drug dealers and hookers had something to do with the VD epidemic in Thailand". There is a difference, but its much more fun to call someone a jerk rather than answer questions. Its even more fun to assume the question was something other than the question asked. Not once did I ever say that "skyride" had shit to do with anything. I ask whenever something seems strange. And in this case it seems to be more than a DZ that size would have. That seems strange so I asked the question. I have asked that same question several times in the past about different DZ's. I think it is a valid question for many accidents. It can help find out things like: 1. Maybe a swoop pond INCREASES accidents since you have people come there and try to go big. 2. Maybe winter layoffs bring more accidents. 3. Maybe visiting jumpers from overseas pull lower. 4. Maybe viviting jumpers come to a DZ and act different since they are "Away" and will not suffer if they get grounded. (we had a guy that would come to Zhills and pull low. The last load of every day he would really hum it. His friends said he never did that at home. When I aksed him why he did it here...His answer was that he didn't care if he got grounded, he was leaving Monday anyway." Each of these, could be found only if you ask the question about the culture of the DZ. 1. If the locals are not pounding in, only visitors then its not the culture of the DZ, but a change might be needed in the brief visiting jumpers get. 2. Winter layoffs might mean that the folks need a visit to the hanging harness. 3 + 4. Maybe visiting jumpers sould be told ahead of time that its not cool and they will spend their skydiving vaction on the ground. It is a natural reaction to defend the "home" and defend the dead/injured....So I don't get all pissed when people attack me. But it is a valid question. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I can only assume you are talking about me. OK fine. I asked a question about culture and never got an answer, only insults. Some people (It seems a lot from that DZ...Understandable and to be expected) will not even look at some factors....I call it the "Circling the Wagons" syndrome. It's when someone dies and people refuse to admit they did something wrong since that person was "Nice", "Cute", "A Natural", "Skilled", "Liked", "Buddist" or any other non-related reason. DZ's often do it as well. I will say that a sure fire way to end speculation is for someone with the info to post it. Truth kills rumors rather quickly. Asking a question and getting an insult, or told to shut up will not. Speculation is not bad. It can go overboard. But it can also lead to discussion that while not a factor in that accident could prevent another one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do a search. They have killed, and they have saved people. Read the 2005 incident rollup I did in this forum for examples of both. Reserve drills should be practiced until they are natural and BOTH handles are pulled all the time. RSL’s save more people than they kill, but jumpers should place more focus on proper emergency procedures and drill them until they are perfect. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good question.... Agree 100% Here is the problem...How many jumps do you have? I have 3800ish. How many reserve pulls do you have? I have 6ish. Of those reserve pulls, how many were at terminal and not from a cutaway? Mine....Zero. So, knowing human nature a bit. And knowing how *I* react when I fuck up....I am almost willing to bet that no matter how much I train "Straight to silver when low".....I bet the first time when I am there I will automaticly reach for the handle I have thrown 3800 times vs 6. Oh, BTW I have already done this....So I kinda know. Back them I had 300ish jumps and I found myself screaming earthward at 120. I flipped over and *though*, "Shit, I'm low go to silv...." As I got about there, I had a main over my head. I threw my main without even thinking about it. And that was back 3000 jumps ago. Success is a muther fucker. I have stopped the freefall a whole bunch of times with my main. So when the chips were down...I went for it without thinking. NOT saying that I still don't drill "When low go to silver"....But I know that when I am in low and moving, my instinct kicks in and my right hand acts faster than my brain. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334