Ron

Ah, yeah. So you let the GPS tell you where you are...what is that if its not letting it spot for you? That whole paragraph tells me that they think they are spotting. I mean if they were surprized then that means they think they were spotting. And I have seen some real disasters when the skydivers think the pilot can do a better job. Great, so you look out the door, but trust the GPS over you. That *is* letting the GPS spot dude. Never said Expect them to do it...I said LEARN to do it. You and your GPS love will not teach them anything more than to turn into lemming when they see a green light. Thats why you look out the door on the ride to altitude. They don't need to know any of that. It does not matter if they are .5 or .6. All that matters is they know if they can make the DZ. The distance, angle, or ground speed is not needed information. Only knowing if they can make the DZ. Or, some smart ass on the ground thought the pilot knew more than he did and lept out like a trained seal on the green light. You keep saying you spot, but then claim the GPS is so much better than you. Its pretty funny to see you claim you spot, then everything you say after that is giving the spot to the pilot. Do you think on a demo into the middle of a city the jumpers spot the plane themselves, or do you think the pilot uses GPS to fly to a point over the ground? *hint I have a PRO rating and have over 100 live demos and well over 500 training jumps for those demos...And not once did the pilot do anything but point the nose into the wind at altitude. and then take directions from the jumpers. Also the only demo I ever landed out on was a mock HALO insertion for the military out of a C-130. We let the Airforces cool wizbang system (much better than anything civilians have) determine the release point for the operation. Its called HARP (High Altitude Release Point) and it takes a computer, a guy trained to use that computer and ALL off the flight information such as winds at different altitudes..And mixes it all up and spits out a release point. We missed. So much for the Armys cool toys huh? But I guess yours are better. I'm done here. Keep doing what you ahve been if it makes you happy. But I would rather people learn to spot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am talking about how skydivers never learn to spot. How they trust pilots, or others to determin when they can get out of a plane, and how most could not spot a solo from 13.500. You carry one of these in your jumpsuit? I don't. So all that info does the SKYDIVER very little good. So if you are gonna allow the pilot to tell you when to go (Which is not spotting) then the GPS only helps the pilot and not the jumper learn to spot. Sure it can if people like you say its so much better than a skydiver learning how to spot. "Well, if its so good, why should I learn? I'll just trust the pilot since he has a GPS." Well since you are letting the pilot spot since you don't know how...You don't bother to open the door till the green light comes on. At some DZ's if you open the door before the light, people start yelling at you. Once the light comes on, they then start yelling at you to jump. A Sign in an otter at a large DZ. "When the green light comes on, check for traffic and jump". Notice it does not say "spot" and if you wait until right before you are supposed to exit to open the door and look out, how can you tell any drift from altitude? Again if you are not opeing the door till the green light comes on, how are you spotting? How are you looking for clouds? How are you checking drift? EXACTLY, which is why I find it hard to believe you are even arguing the point. Unless you just want to argue with me for some reason. If the pilot uses GPS to spot, you are not directing the aircraft to the exit point. so I fail to see how you can learn to spot if you are letting the pilot use his GPS, or Loran C, or him just flying the plane and using his eyes...If you are letting the pilot spot, you are not spotting. If you don't spot you will never learn how to spot. True story: More than once I have opend the door before the green light and got yelled at. One time I stuck my head out the door and looked around. The DZ was quite far away. The green light came on and I was still nowhere near the DZ. But the people in the plane started yelling at me to go. I would not have made it back, so I did nothing. They REALLY started yelling. So I took my group and pulled them from the door and let the yellers leave. This took 10 seconds, and they STILL didn't make it back. I looked out again, found a good exit point and my group and the rest of the plane made it back. So, if you want to trust the green light, feel free. If you want to trust the pilot with the GPS to tell you where you will exit...Again, feel free. But since it is my ass on the line, I will decide where I will exit the plane. Off landings are the first step in MANY accident reports. It would be wise for people to learn to spot to avoid that problem,a nd I find it strange you want to argue that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good point, but if a guy really wanted to learn how to spot, I would let him sit near the door and he could just get out of the way for my exit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Again you would rather trust someone else than do it yourself. And again you would rather trust someone else to spot for you. Then you don't know how to spot. Knowing how to spot is being able to put EVERYONE on the DZ. It seems you would rather just trust the pilot than learn a life saving skill. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

AAD's should not fire in a plane. The CYPRES's did not fire, the Vigils did. Unless you want to claim that the VIGIL is designed to fire when sitting in a plane, it *is* a misfire. You could argue that an AAD should fire in an unknown situation, butI don't think thats a good thing. The Vigil encountered a situation, and it fired. The CYPRES1 encounterd the smae situation and locked up. The CYPRES2 encountered the same situation and never skipped a beat. Given that info I think the winners are: CYPRES2, CYPRES, and then Vigil. AAD's should not fire when they are not needed. Reserves were not needed, but the Vigils fired anyway. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My point is the CYPRES didn't need to fire. Neither did the Vigil. Only one misfired, and it was not the CYPRES. I would rather have an AAD that didn't fire when not needed over one that did. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think both CYPRES units worked great (2 better than 1). I think the Vigil has a problem. I would rather an AAD not misfire. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK so you disagree? And? The USPA has spotting as a requirement for the "A" license. Just because you stuck your head out and looked down and said OK, does not mean you know how to spot. Sure there is if you rely on the GPS to do your spotting. Hint, the GPS will land on the runway with the plane, you may not. Not if you are not looking out the door. Also you don't need deice to go into a cloud, and you can be OVER a cloud and not need deice even if there is Ice in the cloud. So? In one answer you claim that you can spot...In another you claim the pilot does. Heres a tip. The pilot will land on the Airport, he has a plane. YOU are responsible to make sure you exit at a point you will have a safe jump....The pilot only has to make sure you are not a danger to things on the ground. But hey, you claim you know how to spot? Cool. You wanna trust a Pilot or a GPS? Cool. Just don't expect me to follow that dangerous practice....And I don't care how experienced the pilot is. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats why I said people don't know how to spot. Most people don't want to learn, or don't bother to learn correctly. 1. You never learn how to spot. 2. You are not looking out the door and not checking for aircraft. 3. You are not looking fo cloud clearance. 4. The pilot has an engine and WILL make it back even if you don't. Being a pilot, and having a cool toy like a GPS does not mean you know shit about spotting. Some of the worst spots I have been on have been pilot spotted GPS. GPS can be great to help. Some pilots can GPS spot better than any skydiver. But its YOUR butt on the line, not his. Learn to spot. Look out the aircraft. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Honestly, I have enough going on in my life that if I don't go to the DZ I don't mind. I have done my fair share of stuff (13 years, 3800 jumps), got on some big ways (110), scored well at nationals (7th in open), did some cool demos (82nd team member), taught some students (AFF,SL, Tandem), Lived on a DZ in FL for about three years (Zhills), met some great people, lost some great people. One of my friends burned in...And another quit over it. My friend that quit once told me, "Ron, I used to drive to the DZ every weekend. All the people I passed I thought, what idiots, I am driving to the DZ to SKYDIVE! And they go about their lives never living". Now that he has been out a few years (2003). He tells me, "Now I drive to (insert about anything). And I think of all the guys on DZ's thinking they are living life...But all they do is the same thing weekend after weekend. I miss my friends, but I don't miss the money drain and the time drain on my life. I have money an time to do things now" I still like to jump, but now that I live 80 miles from the DZ not on it, and since I have other things going on in my life...A weekend at the DZ without jumping is as much fun as any given day at the DZ. You fill your life with what you can. It does not matter what it is. If it were not for my 4way team....I bet my DZ visits would be much lower than they are now. Its not that I don't like skydiving...Its just I have other things to do. (as I type this in an Airport in the middle of the night for a Vacation/work trip) Relax and you will find your place....It might be on the DZ, it might be time to find the next thing in your life. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. Most do not want to spot. 2. A good number don't know HOW to spot. 3. Those who do know how to spot, don't know how to spot a large plane with mutliple groups. This costs the DZ money in go arounds and risks people landing off. For these reasons its easier for jumpers to sit back and let the pilot and the GPS spot. Its not better, its not safer, but skydivers are lazy by nature and don't want to be bothered, or don't want to risk getting yelled at if someone lands off. Plus most don't have a clue how to spot...And its easier just not to learn. All really bad reasons....Learn to spot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Go to a different DZ if they will not let you open the door and check your spot. If they have a problem with you doing that (not saying SSM does), drive to a DZ that will let you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would love to see facts...All you have brought is an emotional Falicy. Bring facts and I would love to read them...Scream "Think of the dead and dying while we play" and I'll still just sit around and wait for you to bring "facts". As opposed to guys *in* the state trolling? (Hint, thats you) I find it very funny that you will not stand behind what you post with a name. You created this name just to bring what you call "facts" into the forum. Your intentions are not the truth, but to slander anyone that disagrees with you. I have noticed you went form posting *possible* problems to just trying t appeal to emotion. That right there shows you have nothing to stand on. I tell ya what...Ask a real question about DZ operations around a lifeflight airport without a biased anser already in your head and see what happens....Oh wait that already happend,a nd you ran away and tried to play to emotions. But what would any of us know? I have only been skydiving 13 years, have a pilots license with heli time.... I guess I would know nothing about airport operations just because I don't live in KC "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey, who made YOU the director of ethics? Funny thing is he has a right to voice his opinion...And you have yours. However I find his to be well thought out and logical, and yours to be noise and insults. Nice personal attack!!! Wow, now slander!!! And MORE personal attacks....WOW Uh, some on the Anti new DZ side have posted MUCH more tripe that plays on emotion than anyone else here. And your "Retort" was nothing but insults. With two whole posts and just signed up the forum, plus Both of your single posts on this Topic,Fake name entered and no PM's allowed....Gee I wonder who's side you are on? Are you afraid of standing behind your attacks? You sir, are a troll. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A Caravan is cheaper to fly than a KA and the MX is less due to only one engine. That means less fuel burn and less for parts. PLUS a Caravan is cheaper to insure since it has fixed gear. A Caravan is a better choice for a small turbine DZ. Did they have people like you dooming it from the start last time? You have a major roll in this DZ working of falling flat. Are the jumps at your DZ free? Why should I have to work all week and then pay for my jumps AND work at the DZ? Do you make your tandem students clean the toilets? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Get the Trex. Great heli. I have a Shogun with a brushless that flies OK, but not as good at 3D as the Trex. If you can find a Shogun cheap, they can do most of what you want....If I upgraded mine it could do more, but why upgrade when I can get a new one? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They have an auto pilot? Why? And I do have heading hold 401. What can I say...I'm device dependant Well not really since I have flown it in the other mode since I didn't know I had to turn it on...Duhhh. Yeah, I spent 65 bucks and it was to fix something that was not yet broken (clutch and associated parts) I was able to scratch my nose the other day...I was so happy...One because I could not crash the heli, and two because my nose itched. Still after 20 years of planes I giggle like a school girl when I land my heli. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A good heli radio can be bought for about 169.99 to 289.99...I bought a GREAT computer radio, why mess with "good" when you can have "great". I had 4 radios I could have used already, but this one was recomended and it had some features I liked. 6 channels are needed, but I like the ease of use of the 9103. And since helis seem to be VERY radio dependant and the set up is so important I decided to get a great radio from the start. Since the centering of the servos is more important than with a plane, I bought digital servos for about 30 bucks a piece. I have tons of regular servos, but most recommend digitals. I am getting ready to buy next heli maybe this week. Heli's are very cool I recomend them, but you need to not be so "gung ho" with them since they are expensive to crash. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Very true, but you need to know the ideal situation and the concept before you can teach the extreme ends. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See, while I knew how a WDI worked (and rolled my fair share in the Army). insulation foam is a good idea as well. The sand idea is pretty good, but I was wondering if you had used it and how it worked. I didn't want to just try some stuff if someone already had it figured out. I am not a fan of reinventing the wheel. But thanks for the info...And if you have done the sand bit, did you think it worked well? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope. I can only assume that you put the sand in a bag and wrap it with tape...ect. But if you already have something that works, why should I reinvent it? I would not have asked if I knew the answer....If it was a joke, it would have been followed by----> THAT was a joke! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Please tell more. He said he would look into something like that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

All are vaild concerns or questions. 1.2 million is enough to support ONE big DZ. Yes the smaller DZ's will fold. Thats life they can either compete or fold. You do not have to hold a certification to run a business. It sure would help, but it is not needed as long as the guy listens to the people he hires and can tell crap from fact. We have plenty of people on these borads that claim they don't need "X" to tell "Y". It would help, but it is not always needed. Like I said before you don't have to know everything if you listen to advisors. Some business that were never gonna work out did really well, and the people running it may not have done well before. FedEx is a great example. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do like the idea of people having better places to jump. Not saying this will be better, but its hard to say it will not be with any degree of certainty. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No and its a shame. It really helps jumpers understand spotting when they can see a WDI drift from altitude to the ground. Suddenly it clicks, "Hey the idea is to exit up wind just far enough and on the right heading so that I land with no inputs right in the peas....Pretty cool!" You can tell them that all day, they can parrot it back to you verbatim, but it takes seeing it for some people to really understand it. I taked to a DZM about it once....They gave a pretty good answer as to why they don't use them. He said that the metal rod in the WDI's can cause problems for the farmers when they run over them. To be honest not sure if it is true, but being a good neighbor is a good idea. And since I don't know better, its better to be on the safe side. Anyone KNOW it could be a problem? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I took it as, "Open your mind to the idea that a better DZO could run a better DZ than what they have now". Not that the guy is better, but that he might be. Since he has not owned a DZ before none of us know if he is better or not. So while Dave can't say he will be better, nobody can claim he will not be better either. So the thought of keeping an open mind is a good one....Unless you don't want change, which is a pretty common reaction. But still fear of change will not make the change not happen. The better DZ will win out. And that could be either DZ. If there was no competition in this sport we would all be jumping surplus military gear and jumping 172's. If the new DZ starts drawing the jumpers away, then the other DZ's need to meet the challenge. Fair question. I am not so sure I have a problem with it. But that is just my opinion. Both names are different and both names describe the conpany and location. Its not like having "Skydive City" and "The Skydiving City" next to each other. Those are two different issues. One is a legitimate DZ using a name close to yours that descibes what you do and where you do it. The other case is a fake DZ using a name close to yours to lure business from your area away from you. Small difference, but an important one. If the SKC wants to sue, I would support his right. Funny story...When Skydive City came to Zhills, peple said it would ruin skydiving in Zhills. It didn't, and in fact a lot of people would say it is better than it ever was before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334