Ron

Are you talking about this post? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=661029#661029 I don't see anything other than me asking a few questions....which you answered without any attitude back then...But NOW you are all pissed? I have no freaking clue how you took offense to that. It HAS to be that since I have only ever resonded to TWO of your threads EVER....I still have no clue how you got pissed at those questions. Maybe you should PM and we can talk about it....Cause I don't get it..... Hell, I'll re post my last line of that for you again " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We'll all miss him -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't know him, but I don't doubt this... But lets use this unfortunate accident to learn a lesson." So, I said I am sure people will miss him, and called his accident "unfortunate". I STILL don't see how you got your panties in a wad over that. Wow nice personal attack!!! ....I don't see how you got all wound up, but you sure did. Oh and back on topic....You seem to think that I made some half assed threat. Nope, I just think that if you are so rude as to push someone off the plane than you should expect that some people will not like it and get violent. I also stated that some folks find violence funny. Both are true statements. I'm sorry you seem to have a problem with me...(I still have no freaking clue why)....But thats not a big enough issue for me to lose sleep over. I said pushing someone out could be funny depending on how the "pushee" took it....But I guess you would rather just hold onto some misplaced anger. Anyone else feel like insulting me...Send a PM, they are tons more fun since you can cuss and stuff. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh I'm back for this. Where exactly did I say I would break someones face?....Go ahead look it up. I said I would support the guys right to punch someone if someone was so rude and reckless. You don't like what I type....DON'T READ IT. If you do try to read it, try making sure you read it correctly, not jumping off half cocked and start making personal attacks. Sheesh. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah, now here is the problem. *This* group didn't have a problem with it. So now a bunch of folks do not see a problem pushing people out at all. No matter that it could be dangerous, not to mention rude. Question. A guy pulls low. Is it OK and his right? (I think it is). Is it OK for the DZO to ground him? (Again I think yes). Question. If a guy pushed another out, and when the two landed the pushie punched the pusher in the face....Would you be OK with that as well? I would. The simple fact is while it CAN be funny. It can also be dangerous and quite rude. So while there was no harm, no foul here....I can see danger and how some have the right to be quite pissed about it as well. And if you push a guy out that does not find it funny...In my world that guy has every right to punch you in the nose....After all, he and his friends might find him breaking your nose funny. I mean as long as its funny right?.....See how "humor" depends on the situation? A great comedian once said that humor is really playing with peoples pain. Most humor is at the expense of someone. While I don't mind words, PHYSICAL comedy that could endanger is something else. I have said it before, and this will be my last word on this, I think it can be funny. I also think that the person pushed has a right to get upset and knock the guy about the head later. So you need to be careful who you push, or be ready to accept a fight. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

100% agree. My old saying was, "The ground does not care how nice you were, how skilled you were, or what you ment to do....It only cares what happend." The point I was trying to make was a skilled (Steve was quite skilled), current (When you compete at Nationals you try to be on the very top of your game) and good (He was quite good as well)....Accidents still pop up through no fault of your own. And all your skill may not be enough to pull you through. Sandy W at Chicago is another good example. As much as I would like to think we are in total control. We are not. The best we can do is to try like hell to minimize the risk the best we can. and that means make the best choices way before we ever start gearing up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

#1 the best way to pack is according to what the maunal says. #2. Centarus packed the same way long time ago, lines up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

While you know I agree with you that in most cases a small error may still be the cause of a fatality and that in most times the jumper made that error. I however also understand that sometimes shit just happens, and try as you might your best efforts are not enough. Jumper #1 could have avoided the area...However Dust devils are hard to see at times. 2. Sure he might have grabbed bridle, but I have seen pins work loose in freefall on their own. So maybe he didn't. Maybe he could have made the closing loop tighter...But we all know that wind can work things loose. 3. Steve was at the Nationals and was one of the best. An off heading opening got him. The rules have now been changed, but it is hard for me to think a guy at the Nationals screwed up. 4. Riser didn't release. Seen it before, I bet I'll see it again. I have trouble finding fault. Maybe if they three rings were taken apart every 30 days and worked this would not have happend. But thats really hard to say. The Video incidents...Maybe a different camera setup would have helped, Maybe a cutaway on the helmet would have helped. Maybe not. Its hard to say. I would say that these folks didn't screw up. PC in town...Sometimes its damned if you do, and damned if you don't cutaway. The groment line catches....Maybe a good gear check would have caught that...Maybe not. John in Dallas. Maybe less line between the riser and the first stow would have prevented that....Maybe not. Its very hard to say. I think that while in most cases people do screw up and it kills them. Hell I have a reputation as being one of the folks on here that almost ALWAYS find fault and voice that. But I have to be honest that I do infact think that you can do everything right and die still. Its not the norm, but I think it happens. The trick is to do EVERYTHING to prevent it. And if bad things happen be ready to do your best and fight till you die. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Details? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, MOST accidents are the direct result of at least one mistake. But that does not remove the fact that "shit happens" and when it does even your best efforts may not be enough to save you. If you bouce without an AAD or RSL...then you still screwed up since you didn't pull the reserve yourself either. So you can exclude those. Good question. Some that come to mind. There are more, but I can't find the jumper wrong in these cases. 1. 6/9/1996 Lake Elsinore, CA Description: Decriptions are sketchy. The jumper was at approximately 50 feet, being guided by radio. His canopy suddenly went into line twists, and he was dropped immediately to the ground. There were 10 witnesses, and none of them saw the dust devil. 2. 10/20/1996 Wallace, NC Description: After a normal two-way from 15k out of a King Air, the deceased experienced horseshoe malfunction. The main pilot chute was still in it's pouch when the main deployed. The cutaway and reserve were both pulled, however, the reserve deployed into the main, still attached at the pouch. The reserve deployment was therefore fouled, and an unsurvivable landing followed. Reports indicate the problem began after breakoff, so it's likely he grabbed loose bridle, or only partially extracted the PC, and a loose pin allowed the bridle to pull the pin. The main closing loop was found to be intact. It was a Rear of Leg pilot chute, with a spandex pouch. 3. 10/22/1996 Skydive Arizona, AZ Description: Person A was part of a 4 way CRW team. He exited 3rd and Person B exited 4th. Person B had an opening hesitation plus a 180 degree off heading openning, and they collided while Person A was front risering for the first hookup. The canopies hit first, spun, then their bodies collided. They spun for for a while, and the wrap cleared. Person A was found dead on the scene while person B was critically injured. Person B was removed from life support 6 days later, as there was no sign of brain activity. 4. 1/30/1997 Taupo, New Zealand Description: After cutting away from a malfunction, it appears one riser hung up, while the side with the RSL released, casuing the reserve to deploy between the remaining riser. This riser then seperated, and the main ending up choking off the reserve. The pair decended on the partially inflated main which was caught on the wholly uninflated reserve. 5. 5/30/1997 Cross Keys, NJ Description: While videoing a 2-way CRW jump, a wrap occured at about 4000' between the camera flyer and another dive participant. The deceased cutaway, but the slider stowed behind his head became caught on part of his camera helmet and thus his main failed to seperate. The reserve became entangled with the main and he hit the ground hard. He was alert and concious that evening, but died of internal injuries the next morning while in surgery. The deceased was taking part in as well as or videoing the CRW dive. He was likely jumping a Jedei, which is not a canopy designed for CRW. He indicated he had to deploy the reserve because lines were around his neck and he was starting to pass out. 6. 6/22/1997 Umatilla, FL MAL? 42 7500 Y?/Y Description: At the end of a normal tandem skydiver, the student pulled the ripcord at about 5500 feet. The left main riser broke, which in turn activated the reserve static line lanyard (RSL). The RSL immediately pulled the reserve ripcord cables while the right-hand main riser was still attached 7. 6/23/1998 Cross Keys, NJ Description: PC in Tow, reserve deployed, entagement. 8. 7/19/1998 Skydive Chicago, IL Description: Incident occured during the 300-way record attempts. At break-off time from the 3rd record attempt, she was involved in a FF collision which rendered her unconcious. No attempt at deployment was evident 9. 8/9/1998 Kapowsin, WA Description: After a normal tandem skydive, at about 300-400 feet, one side of the canopy collapsed (perhaps due to thermals off of the runway), causing the tandem pair to spiral into the ground. The student died immediately, and the instructor was taken to hospital by helicopter. 10. /20/1999 Kingman, KS Description: On what may have been the sunset load at Skydive Wichita a young jumper with about 200 jumps to his credit and a very experienced skydiver with perhaps two or three thousand jumps were practicing their head-down skills. The young jumper, a few days short of his 21st birthday and current overall, had started getting serious about freeflying in the months before the accident. The experienced jumper, although also current and holding a tandem and AFF rating, was not as experienced at freeflying. The two-way exited the C-182 at 10,000 feet and were flying face-to-face, more or less, and were exchanging handgrips, alternating right-to-right and then left-to-left. At about 6,000 feet the more experienced jumper accidentally snagged the younger jumpers "D" ring and his reserve fired while he was head-down. The younger jumper was also wearing a Sony digital camera on a Bonehead. Anyway, although in extreme pain, the younger jumper landed his reserve canopy and was taken to the local hospital. He and his father and sister (who also are avid skydivers) then went to a major hospital in Wichita. As it turned out, shortening the story considerably, the young jumper had not only fractured some vertebrae in the cervical spine but also ruptured the cerebral artery in the brain stem area. He was declared dead on June 22, 1999 11. 1/8/2000 Perris, CA Description: After a 10-way, the deceased deployed his main and had one of his vectran suspension lines catch underneath the top grommet on his main container (a Reflex), at a point about 18" from the riser. He pulled his cutaway and reserve, but the reserve entangled with the main, which was still caught around the main flap. 12. 2/28/2000 Skydive Arizona, AZ Description: Upon main deployment, one of the spectra suspension lines caught on a grommet. The grommet in question is the one which retains the main closing loop, and (on the Javelin rig in question) this grommet is affixed to the reserve-main dividing wall. The reserve was deployed (unclear if a cutaway was performed) and entangled with the hung-up mess. 13. 3/24/2001 Louisburg, NC Description: A four way and a videographer exited a twin otter from 13000'. The videographer filmed the 4-way, which went normally until breakoff. The videographer was supposed to pull from the center at 4000. Members of the 4-way observed him at 2500' with a bag locked main. On the ground, the main suspension lines were found entangled with the eyepiece on the helmet. The reserve pilot chute was entangled with the main, and (apparently?) both stows on the reserve were out. The reserve ripcord had been pulled, and was not found, indicating perhaps a high deployment of the reserve. The cutaway release was found near the hand of the deceased. He had made 55 jumps in the last month, most camera jumps, and was quite current 14. 3/31/2001 Lodi, CA MAL 49 3000 Y/N Description: After videoing a two-way, this jumper experienced a main malfunction (a spinning something-or-other). When she cutaway, her reserve bridle caught on her front-mounted still camera. She had pulled all the handles, and had managed to reserve the helmet before impact. The ring sight tangled with some of the lines, and the locking stows of the freebag did not release. 15. 7/26/2001 Emerald Coast, AL MAL 37 2600 ?/N? Description: This jumper rolled onto his back to catch the opening of the tandem pair he was filming. The tandem master observed him deploy perhaps a thousand feet below them, go into a quick spinning malfunction, and then cutaway. It would appear that a line from the jumper's canopy caught on his helmet, and when he deployed the reserve, it entangled with the main. While he was concious after the impact under two entangled canopies, he passed away later that evening at a nearby hospital. The main was a Jedei 120. 16. /1/2005 Skydive Dallas, TX DMAL 55 5000 ?/? Description: The jumper had taken part in an uneventful 10-way RW jump and suffered a malfunction. He cutaway, but lines caught on the main pack tray flaps. Reserve was fired, but they entangled. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. Pick a manufactorer...I like Michigan. 2. Call them and tell them your weight and what they recomend...Remember this is what they do for a living. 3. Get the inside grips...They don't cost much and they are nice to have. Other stuff: a)Get a suit that will allow you to fall in the best body position at a good fall rate. A good body position will allow a large range of movement...so wear whatever material will make that happen, and what ever tightness you need. b)I don't like swoop cords, unless you REALLY need them. One min you are at a spacific balance and then next you know you change that. c)Get the biggest booties you can...They are worth it, and wil slow you down. Grips as well. d)Zippers...I personally hate them. They are nothing but a failure point on a suit. They might be more comfertable, but a suit with a neck tie is not comfertable either, but you wear it when you work....Same with a jumpsuit. (Of course I put a lot more tunnel and jumps than a good number of people). In the end its YOUR suit and YOUR skydiving. I would call a manufactorer and talk to them...They are the Pro's. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

#1 don't jump blind, its illegal, while you may not care about it (both from the point of the pilot maybe losing his ticket and the saftey aspect of it) That shows you don't know how to spot. Nope, but you DO need to clear your airspace and not be a green light lemming. I'm done here. Its clear you think you are right no matter how many people disagree with you...even if those people have thousands more jumps than you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sparky is an old fart. But he also has done more in the sport than you and I together. You really think that? Ever heard of Ian Bobo, Shannon Pilcher, Joey Jones? Amazing how you think the type of jump you do has anything to do with your skill or ability in anything other than that type of jumping. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I work it till they get it...Then I work it some more....Then a little more...Then I refreash them before each jump. Sound a bit much? Maybe. But I think being able to perform a good crash landing is an often overlooked skill. I am thankful that my FJc included them...And then I had another 3 weeks to practice thanks to some sadistic Blackhats. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, why bring another penis to a "sausage fest"? All you are doing is hurting your own chances. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have had the opposite experience. Freefliers that demand a perfect spot and wait in the door to get it. That is the WORST logic ever. Some of the "young" jumpers don't have enough skill to make it back from a long spot. And some of the "old" farts have Pro ratings. At a DZ some freefliers tried to "explain" that they should go first since they had more agressive canopies......So we asked them what they were flying. Only one guy in their group had a smaller canopy than the *largest* in our group (a 107) two folks had 79 Velos in my group. I have seen freefly groups take more time in the door than any team I have been on. Anyway, if the RW group takes more time, then it should go first. That way they can start the climbout early enough to exit at the front of the window. If they don't then it is more the case of a single person not knowing how to spot...a VERY common problem with ALL skydivers no matter what type of flying they love. Its not about discipline, its about nobody knowing how to really spot anymore....they just look for a green light. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No offense, then you have not been around very long. Search Kallends exit program. It shows why its best to have flat before freefly. Nope, since FFers fall faster they are not exposed to the drift as long and therefore drift *less*. Yes, they fall faster, but in many cases the flat group will drift over top of them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats why I skydive, the money and all the hot chicks. Never mind the fact that the male to female ratio is like Male 70%, Female 30%. And a large number of those females are taken. Yeah.....Uh yeah, a guy with two AFF's has ALL the game on a DZ All the hot skychicks are gonna fight each other to get to him. Fresh meat and all. I'd say he has a shot "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, it is funny. It is also wrong. Things can be wrong and still be funny. It is amazing how the outcome and attitude makes all the difference. I have been pushed out, and pushed people out. It was wrong, but still funny. But the major point is it was wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The video is funny, but also wrong. It is not your job to tell them when to leave. It is not the pilots job to tell a group when to go. I realize that a bunch of folks don't think that way, but that does not make it correct. The pilot can tell a group when it is safe to leave, but it is the jumpers responsibility to spot. Then they were stupid, but you were rude. The pilot does not decide when I leave a plane....*I do*. Skydivers should not be green light lemmings. Pushing them was rude....I will admit it was funny. But still rude. If they had no issue with it, then no harm no foul....however if they reamed you a new asshole I would agree with them as well. Case study. I was point on a 4way team. I was reaching for my grip, when I saw a plan below us. I refused to take the grip and that delayed our exit. Only the OC knew something was wrong. After the plane left our area I took the grip and we launched. Not even the video guy knew somethingw as wrong...How the hell could YOU in th eplane known something was wrong? See how a "joke" could become something more serious? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

thats cause I'm simple "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What am I in charge of his "light work"? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Paid ad. Websites get paid by advertisers for certain words. Those words will automaticly link to the website of the person who paid for it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The scores in the other rounds bother me a bit. Even with a world record, they still lost 12 points over the other 9 rounds. I know they just got back into the game, this just shows that it will be a long road to the top. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its normal. They are not shipped with a full charge. Flight times are only about 8-9 mins with the NiMH battery. Get a Lipoly and you will get several benefits. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure he was. He let the CYPRES stop him. OK so if the same lesson can be learned by the Instructor taking your handle....What good is an extra beep in your ear? And to get that extra beep you have a student with a mindset of EXACTLY what you said. "I don't have to worry about altitude, I can work out this turn I have since I have an audible that will tell me when I have to pull." Over all I don't see a benefit that is not already covered in the current methods without an audible. Its just a clear when the instructor walks up on the ground and says, "Here, this is yours. You busted the hard deck." and at that point the Instructor and the student can talk about it. Instead of the student trying to fiqure out what that beep was, why he is under canopy and what to do next time...while he should be focusing on canopy flight. There are PLENTY of examples of students that hear about an RSL and thus never pull the reserve handle. There are examples of students doing nothing knowing that an AAD is there. I would say that is reality. YOU brought those up, not me. And your example was a detrament to your position. Look you run your program the way you want. I think it is a bad idea to encourage device dependancy. But you as an AFF I can do as you please. I will not do it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, it's the camera on my phone. The Girlfriend has a digital camera....But I thought this would work. Sorry...I'll beat myself later Yeah, I'll try, but its not like I wanted to create a smoking hole with the last one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334