Ron

Statisticly because more jump throwouts. Do you have any other hard numbers to back that claim up? My point? I thought it was clear. Every thing you do can ADD other problems you have not thought about. Claiming that any one solution is perfect is often short sighted. Yes, those folks died due to failure of EP's....However the FIRST step in making a safe jump is to make sure your equipment works well. AND KNOWING THE POSSIBLE PROBLEMS WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT CHOICE. One possible problem with a PUD is a lost handle. I have seen several people land a reserve due to a lost PUD. Not saying they are good or bad...Just saying they are different and people need to know the differences not just accept that one will eliminate a mal without thinking of the other problems it can create. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This seams to be saying that all the other tunnels are pushing faster air. Since that is the only reason you would need to wear more weight. I'd rather really know why and not just assume something without any basis in physics....Thats just me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I wonder what the true airspeeds are in each? Also, which do you feel beter replicates freefall? Yes water and soup would be different, but we are talking air and air...And that is not so different. One explanation could be the density of the air. Without a venturi the density *should* be higher in your tunnel. But I go back to my thoughts that just like freefall at 13.5 and 2 being different, I doubt many can tell the difference. Can you take an altimeter in the cone and let us know what it reads? Now....As for having only one fan. I think this may be a big part of the difference in feel. The Bragg tunnel has only the one fan and I can easily tell the difference between a multi fan tunnel and Bragg. Multi fan tunnels almost seem to loose lift in one or more fans at a time. (Not maybe the best explanation...But it is how it feels). The best technical explanation might involve choking one side of the tunnel and air being a fluid takes the path of least resistance....If I have a large mass blocking air on one side, the air will flow to another side and maybe starve the fan on the obstruction side of air. I "feel" this creates a low spot in the tunnel that seems to loose lift and cause the formation to drift to that side. That is more a function of multi fan VS one big ass fan....And no matter how much power you have or airspeed it still happens. Having said that, I am a big fan of the one big fan (pun intended). I wonder what the cost of each tunnel to run is compared? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I can't understand HOW people can "feel" the difference. Anyone care to explain how it "feels" different? I would think that a tunnel with "X" as an airspeed would feel the same no matter how that airspeed was created. And I would also think that any difference would be too small for most (maybe all?) to tell. I mean there is a different pressure altitude at 13.5 vs 2 grand, but I would bet most could not "feel" a difference. Question: How many fans do you have? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I have seen people have reserve rides due to a lost PUD. So they ADD problems as well. A Ripcord can make it so a PC stays in a burble. SL can have a towed jumper. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. I will say the differences *I* noticed with a rig on in the tunnel. 1. The biggest difference was I felt the weight on my upper body. I was unable to get a over exagerated mantis like most fly in the tunnel. This wore my arms/chest out really fast. I have done 6 hours in one day before, and I can honestly say that 30 mins with the rig smoked me worse than those 6 hours. 2. The weight made it so the tunnel needed to be cranked up. This made it so I felt I had more power....But here is the rub, I also felt I needed more power to get my body to move. 3. The cool and groovy "snap" turns I can do in the tunnel where I turn almost on my side....Well they didn't work as well since the rig caught air like you commented on. And the rig limited my ability to torque my body into positions that let me move faster. 4. My back flying really sucked . We let Joey and I think Thomas play in the tunnel with our rigs...They still were very good, but it was a big difference. When I tried, I had to fight just to stay in control. I am a BIG fan of training 4way with rigs. I think that was a major reason my team did so well at the nats last year (Phugoid). We only made 170 jumps, but almost ALL of our tunnel that year was with rigs. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Can't disagree without being rude? Sure, but MOST people weigh less in the tunnel than in freefall since MOST do not wear rigs in the tunnel (avg weight 20 pounds). Even more so for the first time they are in the tunnel. Ah, but ever think that might be due to how much time they spend in the tunnel vs in freefall? People wear out after several two min rotations in the tunnel. They don't have the rest of a 12 min plane ride. So if a person weighs less in the tunnel (due to not having a rig) than in freefall, which most do, then what I said would be true, so why the insulting? BTW ever flown a rig in the tunnel? I base my guess off of over 100+ hours of flying in tunnels, about 15 hours with a rig. BIG difference with the rig. Also, I have strapped about 30 pounds on to see how that worked as well. I found that with the extra 30 pounds, the higher airspeed made me SO much more powerful. That makes no sense. Your body is not going to be able to tell the difference between Venturi created speed and any other type of created speed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Next time read the replies. Why ask a question that has been answered? Sure, the problem is whith everything you change you invite more unknown problems. A lot of "fixes" do harm. Before AAD's there were no AAD fires. You create a new thing and new problems arrive. Not telling you to not think..Thats great, but try and think it all the way through. Been done....kinda sucked. And these also broke through in the wrong place at times and you had to watch them. ADDING more flaps will just add more snag points and more tension....Your idea of just adding a bigger PC will now cause the main to open harder, and make the possibility of a hard pull grow. No offense meant....But if the top dogs in rig design have not been able to find a solution....Well, then it is just not that easy. Keep thinking, but in the mean time READ the thread, or atleast don't tell us you didn't bother to read it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Gee, I wonder where you did that? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I find that it takes LARGER movments to get the same result. That is due to a slower fall rate (hover rate?) due to a lighter jumper. In freefall you are going to be wearing close to 20 pounds more than in a tunnel. Less weight is going to equal a slower fall rate. A slower fall rate is going to require more input to get the same speed result. I think that what you experienced was the simple fact that in the tunnel you have references all around you. So any small move will result in you SEEING you are moving faster. It is a common problem when a jumper goes to the tunnel for the first time. To limit this, my team last year wore rigs that were almost the same weight as our freefall rigs. This allowed us to fall at close to the same rate, and gave us restricted movement like a rig would give us. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If this has not been said yet..... DO THEM VERY HIGH UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW YOUR CANOPY WILL REACT!!!!!!!!!!!! Some canopies will mal when you do this. Back to your regular programming now. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Youa re correct that the best way to prevent having to make this choice....Scratch that. MAKE the choice NOW, but to prevent having to perform that decision, is well maintained gear. I agree 100%. However event he best maintained gear CAN mal. So while I do understand your desire to focus on prevention....The question was about the cure. I would HATE for anyone to think about anything other than what they trained when presented with this type of mal. Some of the reasons that this type of mal is so bad. 1. Its high speed. A PC does not slow you down much if at all. Time is clicking and altitude is fast disapearing. 2. Its not clear that you have a mal. A spinning canopy that looks like dog doo is easy to tell you have a problem. A PC in tow could clear (and I have had two that did). A good number of folks have died thinking something would clear that never did. I don't want people to think about what is making the PC tow when they have one. I want them to ACT NOW whatever plan they already picked. I agree 100% that time should be spent on the ground making sure that everything you do to prevent it from happing, you do. But I also think that we should all choose now what we will do when it happens...Then train it so it does not. Thanks. But even so, I have had two PCIT. They both cleared, but I still had them. Please add: Uncocked PC Worn out PC. HATE is such a strong word....Lets go with *avoid* "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He didn't ask how to PREVENT IT. He asked how to deal with it. Yes, proper gear selection and MX will prevent a good number of mals. BUT THEY STILL HAPPEN ANYWAY. He asked about what to do when, not how to prevent. Yes, its about how the two deploying parachutes will act. You want to talk prevention? 1. Make sure your PC is good. These things wear out. 2. Make sure your main is the correct size for the container. 3. Make sure your pin is not cranked down tight. 4. Make sure your bridle is routed correctly. 5. Make sure you cock your PC...even when using packers. But he wanted to talk about what to do when "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And maybe not. You, me NOBODY can claim to know the sure fire safest thing to do. People have died both ways and survived both ways. So you think its safer to spend the time trying to cutaway while hoping that your AAD will save you if you take too long? If you do take too long you will end up EXACTLY where you would have been if you just pulled the silver. That is device dependancy. I can't comment on your procedure choice...But your reasoning, in reguard to trusting the AAD, is terrible. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh how I wish I could take credit for that saying.....But I was told it years ago by a hippy skydiver named Doug Wolf.....Ah hell, he does not jump anymore, I'll claim it "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See thats the thing. No one call tell you 100% what will happen. Some of the things that can happen if you pull the reserve first. 1. It will deploy clean and the Main will not launch. 2. It will deploy and the main will launch but they will not foul each other. 3. The reserve will deploy but the two will entangle. BOTH methods will either save you or kill you. You will not be able to tell which is better (none of us can), and you will not have time to make that choice when you are in the path a a 120 MPH planet aimed right at you. If there was even a SLIGHTLY clear better path, there would be no discussion. Its a crap shoot either way. Research both methods, talk to a qualified Instructor and maybe a rigger, consult a pastor if you think that will help, and make a choice and train it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. Why take it differently than if a girl did it? Just let them know you like women and say thanks....Its much easier to turn them down, than a woman you are not interested in. "Sorry, I'm not gay and not looking to change that." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The thing that kills me is that people who supported him are no bailing. What did they think was going to happen when we went to war? You can just quit when you feel like it? Sheesh. Its pretty normal for a second term guy to have a lower rating...And even more so for a Prez during a war that lasts more than a week. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep...for your next thread try: A. Pull out vs Throw out? B. RSL needed? C. Are AAD's for girls only? D. A Velocity 90 for my first canopy? Good choice....I figure you have as good of a shot with that than with anything else. I'd look anyway. Just claim that you felt someone tap your shoulder and turned to look. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think he was trying to be funny and you took it as an insult. If he had just said "NO" would you then be posting how unfair or how mean he was? There is a no dog rule, you asked for special treatment, and he answered with something that some (not you, but some) found funny. I'd say he was just trying to be funny and you over reacted. Just my take however. Anyway I don't think unsupervised dogs or unsupervised children belong at a DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, but my point is there is no way to know while in freefall if your bridle was routed correctly. I mean, if you KNEW it was anything but correct, you would not have jumped right? Personally I am a big fan of just pulling the reserve and then being ready to cutaway if I need to. I think that either of the two methods can work or kill you at any given time. That being said each has benefits and drawbacks. I will try and list a few benefits and drawbacks that only apply to each. Pull the reserve. Good things: 1. It is the only handle that will save your life. Stopping the skydive is a good thing. Landing a PC is normally fatal. 2. It is pretty simple and by deploying the reserve first, if things go well, you will be open higher. This gives you time. Bad things. 1. Its not a "one stop shop" for emergency procedures. It gives you Two and that can be bad when you are low and have to make a choice and DO IT now....This can take time. Cutaway and pull the reserve. 1. One stop shop for all emergency procedures. Makes it easy to know what to do...You only have one option. Bad things: 1. It takes time...And many times you don't have the time to spare. Now the question of which is safer....I think its a crap shoot to be honest. Both can save you, or either can kill you. I like the option of just pulling the reserve personally. That way I still have my main, and while yes it could deploy...I can still cut it away if it is clear. And people have survived a double out, but landing a PC is a bad idea. I would talk with an instructor you trust....then check that info against another instructor you trust. The only thing I will say with 100% confidence is that you cannot put any more force on a bridle with your hand than a PC can do. So trying to pull it is a bad idea. Don't try to do rigging in freefall. Pick one of the other two methods and train it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or maybe when they rolled over to grab the bridle, the burble behind them cleared and the PC left? Much more likely than they actually pulled the pin loose. Simple facts: 1. A 120 MPH wind in a PC will put more force on a bridle than you can by reaching back and pulling. Doubt me? Get a fish scale and try to measure how much force you can get by pulling from the center of your back straight out....Post your results. Then take that same scale and tie a PC to it. Get in your car and on a no wind day stick it out the window, start driving....See how long it takes to reach the same force. Then see how much force you can get before it feels like it is going to rip your arm off....Post the results. 2. Doing 120 MPH towards certain death is not the time to try in air rigging. We burn altitude at about 6 seconds per 1,000 feet. So from 3 grand we have 18 seconds left to live, about 15 to DO something that will let us survive. 3. Its bad form to give new people crazy ideas of how to react in a high stress environment. If you have the skill to pull something crazy like in air re-rigging off when all hell is breaking loose and your life is on the line, you don't need to be told to try it. When all hell breaks loose, most people have a problem doing ONE SIMPLE emergency procedure 100% correct. So now if people listen to you instead of having TWO options, they will now think they have to choose between THREE. I would rather that have ONE and practice it till it is automatic. They need to pick one and train it. People have landed a two out and survived, your chances of landing just a Pilot Chute is not very good. STOP THE SKYDIVE! Experienced jumpers still die. And losing it fast. From 3 grand they have 18 seconds left to live. How can they be sure? You think the people who DO have misrouted bridles were idiots, or people who just made a mistake? You think that anyone that thought they had a misrouted bridle would have jumped? I very much doubt that many people can think that fast and be 100% sure. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well that would get old. I understand. Like I said they can be over done and over used. I think they can be a good tool as long as they are not the only tool you have. Why? I don't see a big difference. As long as you are using the PPT for only the informational part. I normally don't use PPT when I teach since it can be a pain and I don't really need it. Really, just trying to improve my presentations so let me know. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Made perfect sense, thanks for sharing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A rig A flip chart A video Either will work. A good place to get a video is whatever leader your DZ uses for the Tandem/AFF tapes. I know the Skydive City one is really good. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334