Ron

Not really. You blaming Airtec for someone not maintaining the battery, or setting the device at home when the DZ is 1500 feet higher is like blaming Ford when a guy that is running around on bare ties gets a flat, or runs out of gas. Deaths have been the result of people drinking Draino as well. In spite of the warnings on the bottle. If you fail to read the manual and UNDERSTAND it, and use it anyway. It is not the fault of the maker of the equipment. Yes, Its saved more people than it has hurt. Only one case of it killing someone when they used it correctly...Swooping. All others have failed to follow simple directions. The CYPRES when maintained correctly and used according to the instructions have been saved MUCH more than injuried. It not the fault of the car maker if a guy runs out of gas on the way home from work. Its a one button operation. No matter how easy a device is to use, someone will not bother to read the instructions and get it wrong. If you are too stupid to read the instructions, or ask for help than no amount of coddling will help. Really? Didn't Solly Williams (Current world champion and really heads up jumper) have a Vigil misfire? So much for that line of thinking "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Funny, I learned more about flying from FLYING. Doing stalls, turns, MCA ect than I ever did from any aerodynamics book or class. The data you talk about is great for a bunch of reasons, but it does not teach you how to fly, FLYING does that. Thats not an attack its a fact. Why would I or Dave want regulations? Its not like we are gonna make money on them. Who do you think is better able to see a problem...A guy with 4,000 jumps, been in the sport long enough to remember the first Stiletto, and a bunch of ratings that let him teach, or a guy with 100-500 jumps that has only been in the sport a few years? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, we want people to be able to fly whatever they can IF they can do it with a reasonable chance of not dying. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I didn't get it. The reason? Well the "A" back then was 20 jumps. The "B" was 50 and the "C" was 100. I needed the "A" to self jumpmaster and travel to other DZ's with little hassle. By the time I got 50 jumps I was doing 25-30 jumps a mth and saw no need since I would be able to get the "C" in a mth and a half. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Please provide one case where the CYPRES was used correctly and failed to fire. I honestly can't think of one. If its not turned on, calibrated wrong, batteries are out of date...Then the CYPRES did not fail. Please provide a case where the unit didn't work...To be honest I think I remember one, but can't recall it. If the unit is not on, mantained, or calibrated correctly (by the user) then its not a failure of the unit. It is a failure of the user. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I also said if I am wrong and if I am I'm sorry. You flat called me a liar even after others provided proof. You then started a tap dance routine...Showing how far a person will go to try and not appear wrong. And my point is how you did the same thing the 100 jump wonders do...you thought you knew better so you basicly told me I didn't know what I was talking about. You were wrong, but it didn't stop you from claiming I knew nothing. How different was it when you thought you knew more and told me to shut up? You KNEW me back then? You were around back then? Or are you just making a wild guess? HINT: I have been skydiving for 12 years and you have been jumping 8-9....So that means you were not around back then, but thanks for playing along. Yep and you proved my point that people get bad info and don't listen when people try to give them the correct info....Some go so far as to call the person with the correct info a liar. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK but without exposure you can't have education. I get sick of the people who defend the person because the person was nice. The ground does not care how nice you are. It does not care what you planned to do, or tried to do. It only cares what happend. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

King Airs have two engines that ups cost per hour. They cost a bunch to insure since so many have been landed gear up (GA) or had some pilot rip the flaps almost off (IL.) Otters have two engines that cost a bit...Plus since they are popular now even ragged out ones cost a bunch. Caravans cost as much, and don't have the turn times. Porters are good, but its really hard to find pilots with enough tail dragger time to get on the insurance...For a good reason, they can be a pain in the ass....Wagstaff a World Champion pilot wrecked one during the filming of "Dropzone". Yes, a DZ could not survive by just flying 4 jumpers all the time. Have you ever been a jumper at a Cessna only DZ? If not then you would not know that most Cessna DZ's could fly more than 4 most of the time if they had a plane that could carry more than 4. One Tandem with Video takes the plane for 25 mins. There is one slot left for a solo jumper, but that does not get filled most of the time and goes empty. If you had a plane that could break even with 4 jumpers then anything over 4 is profit. So think one tandem and a level 4 AFF. Now its turning a profit on every load. Or even an AFF Level 1 and a two way. Fact is a good number of small DZ's could fly more jumpers if they had a plane that could carry more. Now people just sit on the ground, or drive further to a turbine DZ. Its a good plane for a small DZ that has fun jumpers and Students. I am looking forward to jumping one at some point. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't hide it, but I don't brag about it. Skydiving is just the same a ANY OTHER HOBBY. Most people who just started think theirs is the coolest and everyone wants to know about it. After a while you realize that hobbies are not what makes you and you could not give a shit that people know about it. I don't hide it. Such as when people ask what I did on my vacation, I tell them...Why lie? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some people on here will argue that it is safe "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't agree with that. YOU may know some of the things out there, but remember that an average skydiver jumps for about three years. We have new people coming everyday and they may not know some of the "old" facts. I sugested this years ago to Sangiro. A new thread would need to be screened by someone before it could be posted. It needed to have some facts such as: Date, Location, type of accident, gear if known, WL if applicable....ect. I also suggested (and it seems to be used now) that all Subject lines have the location and date so as not to confuse. Still I like the idea of all new *threads* to be screened before being posted. While I think a good number of posters are attention seeking....I know a good bit that try and educate others. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Jan, this is one of the best tools I have seen. If it could import into XL it would be nice...But really great work and thanks. Also, just let me say thanks for all you do..you do quite a bit and all the work you do makes skydiving better. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh geeze. You jumped my shit back then. I said he had a 1.5 WL and you told me I was wrong and "spreading falsehoods". Problem is that you didn''t know that the canopy he was jumping was listed bigger than it was and he was actually under a 1.55 WL. Even once that bit of info came out you still claimed I was "posting falsehoods". Your post did seem like an attack on me. And given your and my history (namely you telling me I didn't know shit)...How could I take it any other way? I'm done here...You are normally a nice guy, but I can only take a guy calling me a liar so much and then jumping me yet again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is a commercially available video we used to show students. It had a bag lock on there and it did stand the guy up....He was kinda in a "kneefly" position, but he was not belly to earth. It showed a good 15 seconds and he was sitting up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You burn through 1,000 feet every 6 seconds. The last 500 feet are not good for much if you have not already done anything. How long do you think it will take you to reach, find, and pull your reserve? It will take a lot longer than you think since you have probebly never done it in freefall. Lets say you pitch your main by 3,000 feet. How long will it take you to realize you have a problem? We used to teach "count to 4 and check canopy". 167 feet per second X 5 seconds = 835 feet spent checking. (now at 2165) So now you are at 2165. How long do you think you ask, "What the hell!" before you realize the situation? 2 seconds? 167 X 2 = 334. 2165 - 334 = 1831 How long does it take to locate, reach, and pull your reserve? 4 seconds if everything goes right? (remember you have NEVER pulled this before in freefall, or EVER done pratice pulls in freefall) 4 seconds X 167 = 668. 1831 - 668 = 1163. Say 200 feet for the reserve to open (TSO). 963 feet or 5.76 seconds before impact if everything goes right....so if you had pulled at 2,000 you would be dead already. Do you think you have the time to do this? Also 167 is for flat dumb and stable. Start pitching yourself around and you are asking for trouble. 167 is 113 MPH. Use 176 for 120. 11 seconds X 176 fps = 1936 + 200 = 2136 2136 - 3000 = 864 feet or 4.9 seconds left. Do you think it is wise to plan to spend extra time when you only have a margin of 5-6 seconds if everything goes right? If you spend 7 seconds before you reconcognize its a PC in tow, fumble with the reserve pull...Well you are dead. STOP THE SKYDIVE. Also while looking for the reserve...You most likley will not stay perfectly stable. So that might launch your PC. But I would not waste much time trying to do it before I stopped the jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A PC in tow will not stand you up. The attachment point is just like a drouge on a tandem. If anything it might slow you down a VERY tiny bit. A two out MIGHT kill you. Landing only a Pilot chute WILL kill you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So if both think they are safe, and both think they know the gear...Then how is BASE safer than skydive? Problem is the stats don't back that opinion up. A friend of mine, who used to be part owner of a BASE gear company, told me that a BASE jumper with 100 jumps is quite something. However, a skydiver with 1,000 jumps is quite common. He also told me that the injury/fatality rate was much higher for BASE. Numbers I have seen supported that, but I don't remember where I saw them. So please, what is the injury/fatality rate for BASE jumpers? That right there will answer the question. Perception is always skewed. Lets talk numbers. Incidents per jump. Skydiving has a reported Fatality rate of about 1 in 70,000 jumps. Or in participants about 1 in a 1,000 will die. Your BASE camp has changed a bit. You have a BASE jumper doing a hand held jump (a normal beginner BASE jump) but have the skydiver doing a freefall solo (something very few skydiving students would ever do). A more realistic situation would be a 4 second delay from BOTH jumpers. So a "hop n pop" for the freefaller. In that situation the freefaller has the edge since if he takes 10 seconds to "pop" he will still live. Also, canopy control. You said under the SAME equipment. So that means either both square, or both round. Both square..I'd give it to the skydiver since he has much more time to learn to control the canopy, and there are no walls to hit. Round would maybe go to the BASE since he has less time to drift into crap. Why I think Skydiving is the "safer" of the two: 1. More time to open. 2. More time to learn the canopy. 3. TWO canopies as opposed to just one. You can claim all day that BASE rigs wanna open. So do student canopies and reserves. 4. CYPRES. Even though I say never to depend on one, it will most likey give the edge to the skydiver. But like I said lets talk incident ratios. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really. If they think it is so dangerous....then why do they say it is safer for a newbie with the same amount of training over a skydive with the same amount of training? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would not peal it unless I was going to use it. Bingo. 1. Try to get the PC to clear. 2. Dump the reserve (STOP THE SKYDIVE). 3. Check the situation and see if cutting away will help or hurt. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well yes and no. The thing is if you did cutaway first and all hell breaks loose.....You have no other options. If you dump the reserve and all hell breaks loose you still have an option left. You may not choose to do it, and even if you do it it may not help...But you have an option And if you stop the jump first, you will have something out when you hit....Better than nothing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope. But if you did, don't worry about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Either will save or kill you depending on that one jump. People have done both and lived and people have done both and died. The most important thing is to do something so you don't waste time and land just a pilot chute. Me? I'm stopping the jump and dealing with what I get. One benefit of this is I can still cutaway once the reserve is open. If you cutaway first you have no other options left. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why do you say that? Which sport do you think has a higher injury/fatality rate? Also one common theme in most sports is participants think they are doing something safe. So it is pretty easy to guess that many BASE folks think they are safe and that it would be safer. Perception is not always reality. If you answer which sport has a higher injury/fatality rate....you will have your answer. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your answer to why people call you a troll is the sentance above that quote: "shall i cry like some of the religeous nut cases do on here?" Or posts about students shitting themsevles...ect. You have a history of posting statements for no reason other than to start trouble. You reap what you sow. If you act like a troll, expect to be called on it even when you are trying to be serious. That said. Ah, but not true. See this attitude lead to certain places refusing to treat skydivers that were hurt (Quincy Hospital for one). It has also lead to lawsuits where the DZO while not quilty still had to hire a lawyer to defend himself costing him money. It has lead to lawmakers trying to impose regulations on skydiving to the point that it could end skydiving at that DZ (Yazoo, MS.), and possible problems for the whole state (NV where a lawmaker wanted DZ's to have insurance that would cover accidents). So while you "Play like a big boy" rules sound great, they cause plenty of problems. But it is also my right to not let you get on any airplane I own, or jump at any DZ I am in charge of. Also I have the right not being in the air with someone who is unsafe. Its not even close to being the same, and that is part of your problem. The other is you are new to the sport. Wanna talk cars? Sure. You can get a license to drive a car and run out and buy a Ferrari. But the one thing you still forget to think about is that a Ferrari also goes slow. A HP canopy does not. But you can't drive a Semi without a license and you can't ride a motorcycle without a license....even if you have a car license. See your dream of being an adult is not held in any other sport. Wanna race on the track? Gotta have saftey equipment and most tracks require you to prove you can handle it before they allow you to race with others. SCUBA? Well you can't go on deep dives without higher than Open water, most places you can't do cavern dives without "Cavern" and you can't do cave without "Cave". Can't get a NITROX fill without the cert either. Flying. Can't fly a high performance plane without a high performance endorsment, can't fly complex without a complex endorsement, can't fly a twin without a muti rating, can't fly in IMC without an IFR rating, can't fly above 18,000 MSL without an IFR rating, can't fly above 15,000 without O2....ect, ect. No matter how much of an adult you THINK you are, you still can't do all of the above without proving you can handle it first. Not even close to their call. If you wanna do what you want, get your own airplane with your own pilot,a nd jump onto your own land by YOURSELF...With health insurance...Then its all you. Until then, you have to play nice with others and admit you don't know everything even if you think you do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This has been covered a bunch of times...Do search for indepth talks. Short version, I like the Neptune. Very easy to use. Both have great customer service. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334