FLYJACK

Looking for "placards" that are held on with "rivets/screws" I found the Martin 202A.. they also had ventral airstairs. They were also used by Northwest. Cooper had aviation experience but didn't understand the operation for the 727 airstairs, maybe he got the jump idea from the older gen Martin 202A... were there any other older gen planes with ventral stairs? EDIT: there was also the later Martin 404 with ventral stairs and pressurized, which was also used in the navy. Maybe Cooper flew or was involved with these planes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_4-0-4 I always thought Cooper Boeing employee and 727 expert was a red herring.. If Cooper was in "aviation" or flew frequently and 45-50 yrs old, he'd have exposure to these..

Most were installed by Boeing on the early 727-100's Hominid is correct some kits were sold "after"... The placard may been custom or factory or there may have been no placard.. The placard looks like it has a number on it bottom right, that is probably a part number that the FBI used to claim it matches a 727.. that indicates it was a Boeing part, not custom. If it came during NORJAK without the access door then pieces would have been left behind on the wall, noticed and can be matched, it wasn't. The FBI claimed it "matched" placards for the 727 not that exact 727. If it came off with the access door it would have been noticed missing. Conclusion, unlikely it came off during NORJAK.

I think the placard was on the emergency access door, it may have been above but unlikely. Why,, the holes from rivets/screws/fasteners or "whatever" would not be there to hold the placard to the wall or anything. It is a decal.. The access door needs something to affix it to the underlying panel that releases when pulled. The finger holes at the top makes the 5 clip pattern I suggested work. The pull leverage is from the top down. You would need at least 5 points for spring or tension clips to hold it securely. So, the placard/decal is stuck to the access door and the access door has 5 "rivets/screws/fasteners" holding clips to the backside of it. The rivet/screw heads are on top of the placard/decal. That suggests placard/decal was affixed to door before clips and originally by Boeing. It is unlikely you'd get that pattern of tear holes in the placard any other way. I'd expect 5 plastic spring clips permanently attached to the back of the plastic access door.. probably rivets but maybe screws or something similar? SOOOO, if the access door went missing during NORJAK why didn't they notice it?

I give up... you've lost the plot

WE don't know if they were rivets we are using that term for brevity.. Those rivets/screws/fasteners - whatever - would not be attached to the al frame, they'd be permanently attached to some clip or release on the back of the access door.. the back of that access door probably has 5 clips on it.

You are getting lost in the weeds.. rivets were used for solid signage. The placard found was a thin decal that was folded up.. there are no similar ones fixed with rivets/screws/fasteners. That indicates the holes in the placard were not used to affix it but something else it was stuck to.

We are using the term rivet, but they may be some fastener that enables a release from the wall. They held the thicker plastic access door to the wall not the placard to the door. My point is the "rivets/screws/fasteners" weren't for the placard at all, they were for the plastic access door.

right, that is the main door.. I found no rivets for any similar placards that suggests the rivets weren't for the placard but for the emergency access panel itself. When pulled they release from wall. something like this..

It could have been the jet blast,, still lots of unknowns. It does look like it was ripped off top downward, the missing piece remaining center bottom.. the rivet/screw stopping that portion below from separating.

One possibility is that the placard was stuck on the access door just below the finger holes,, the rivet/screws held the access door to the panel but released when pulled, The placard would be below those. Note that there is no rivet/screw on the top center of the placard.

I agree, you'd think it would be an adhesive decal.. the placard found wasn't and it had those rivet/screw holes.. I can't find any "placard" examples like that. Would one of the 727 prototypes have use rivets/screws for the placard?

way to big.. proportions are off, descriptive but not accurate

I was trying to figure that out, the angle in that image distorts, the placard may fit just under the holes, but the rivet/screws don't make sense to me.. the access door may not be exactly the same for all planes. The Boeing doc stated that the main door is 2.5x larger.. and all information confirms finger pulls. My opinion is that it probably didn't come from that plane, but still trying to sort it out. Real images are tough to find.. diagrams show a decal on the access door, but if that placard doesn't fit on the door it probably didn't come from that plane,, hard to tell though. This is the only other real pic I could find,, appears to be a placard on the emergency access door.

On the right there is a line that stops just above the finger holes.. that should be the top of the access panel.. this pic is a little misleading, if you look at the angles at the top, the main panel and access door are at very different angles.. this plane is not in service..

The emergency access panel doesn't go to the top, the main is 2.5x larger so I'd guess it is about 8" x 10" or so. It would be completely hidden behind the main door in that pic.

not necessarily, if it was at night.. You confuse the flightpath search for a test with the 727.. different purposes. The FBI doc didn't state available night and day,, "we could do both the day and night time flights on that day" and they discuss in context of the test,, lights of Portland and distinctive lights

I know that... the "helicopter" found a piece of white plastic 9 miles NW of search area on Nov 28... they assumed it was left by a logging crew. Could that have been the plastic access door? They didn't know the placard was missing then.. Further, the tests were planned to include a night flight and the sled test Jan 6. The sled test was done during the day and all the pics were during the day. They allude to the night test as being over the flightpath (see the lights of Portland).

speaking of evidence.. I still suspect the FBI mixed up the chutes from Cossey and Hayden with the chute going back to Hayden the one Hayden chute not sent to the plane.

ok, got it. Sorry. I posted the wind stuff before and nobody seems to grasp how important it is that the FBI estimated winds... The alt flightpath crowd uses it as fact. I found this.. "An Army helicopter was sent to check out “something white’ which turned out to be a piece of plastic, probably left by a logging crew nine miles northwest of the main search area. " https://newspaperarchive.com/argus-nov-28-1971-p-1/

I know the direction, you miss the point, the application of the data is crap.. it is a guess, a poor proxy, it is for Portland and Salem, not where the placard was found or Cooper's possible LZ. Even worse, it is an average for an entire hour between 8-9 PM.. If you check Toledo at 8 or 9, Seattle at 8 and even Portland at 7- 8, the wind was ESE to S.. shifting later to SSW.. Does anybody think using wind data 60-100 miles away averaged over an hour has any legitimacy..

yup, I posted that already with even more wind info... Eric just ignores it. The winds were an assumption based on Portland and Salem data averaged between 8-9PM, but if you look at winds close to 8PM they were ESE shifting to S then SSW.. All the wind data shows the winds from the ESE/SSE to S around 8 PM. In line with the flightpath.. the data also suggests it was the virtually the same same direction at all alt levels but increased at elevation. The winds were an assumption, a poor one. That spins the LZ . FBI part 20 page 6197-6198 8:00 PM – Toledo, Washington: Measured 3,000 feet overcast, 12 miles visibility, very light rain showers, temperature 42, wind south 5 knots. Rain began 7:35 p.m. 9:00 PM – Toledo, Washington: 3,000 scattered measured, 3,400 overcast, 12 miles visibility, temperature 42, wind south 6 knots. Rain ended at 8:05 p.m. FBI part 22 page 6547 8:00 PM – Sea-Tac. Visibility 7 miles; clouds 700 ‘ft., scattered; estimated, 2,500 ft., overcast. Wind SSE @10 knots with light rain wnich began at 7:12 PM. The following suggests the wind was a “guess” for the LZ “_______ also stated that to secure average of below listed information for Woodland, Washington, an average of the two sets of information would give close estimate of conditions at Woodland. The information below is for the times between 8:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. on November- 24, 1971”

Yes,, also find out if the 727 prototypes, (used in the 63/65 drop test) used rivets/screws for the placard... those may have been unique.. In 1963 -1964, The Boeing Company ·had ---·-- --- a team of 20 to 30 and test pilots experimenting with the air stairs of The Boeing 727 to determine the plane’s adaptability for dropping cargo or personnel. In the tests conducted the air stairs were removed and packages were dropped from the plane using an especially designed chute. Northwest telephoned on 12/30/71. He said he had definitely confirmed that pertinent airplane would be available to us all day on 1/6/72 and that we could do both the day time and night time flights on that day. The night flight suggests they flew the flighpath as well as the sled test.

"FBI spokesman Kay Mathis in Seattle put a word of caution on the finding of the placard by admitting that it was possible the plastic piece, 8 by 11 inches in size, may have been knocked off after the Cooper flight rather than during it." All I am saying is that this statement made after they investigated the placard suggests the plane flew over the area.. it doesn't make sense otherwise. They knew where it flew and that would have been the first thing they checked. Obviously there are many variables and other possibilities.. like most of this case.

That map just one quick example, I am sure I could find more,, knowing the flightpath is a non issue, locals knew where the FBI search was.. it would have been easy to figure out the path (v23) or see an unofficial map of it before 1979..

Placard doesn't have to be loose for days.. it could have been dislodged during the test or rigging for it. They could have flown the flightpath with airstairs down and then out over the ocean. I disagree, they investigated the placard for months before that statement was made, they would have known if any tests included the area where it was found. To suggest it might have come off during the test indicates that it was a real possibility, not an off the cuff remark.