Zenister

you are confirming my point... if you are not hunting for survival it IS a game, a sport, something you do for entertainment, not existence. that is the fundamental difference.. it could be compared to someone with pretensions as a fine chef and yet uses preprepared sauces, meats and ingredients.. someone else far removed from the action (the weapon manufacturer in the case of hunting) has already done what you could not achieve with your own abilities. Yet modern 'hunters' pretend they have exercised some skill and cunning in the simply pull of a trigger... no effort, no personal energy required to kill and only slightly removed from those who do so from the comfort of their own home via a robotic interface and a simple mouse click... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Ah, but this is worth fighting? I think you will see your numbers defending it lessen as more "fighter pilot wannabe's" hammer in. because it isnt enacted yet... i have NO issues with including more education in the licensing process.. what i do not agree with imposing restrictions on licensed adults. this is easily out there.. perhaps you should go look... note: i'm referring to reliable AADs Forgot about this already? Seems to be a problem even WITH a CYPRES. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1300098#1300098 perhaps you'll recognize there is a distinct difference between someone who INTENTIONALLY increases their risk level (by pulling low/swooping) and someone who inadvertently does so... (loss of altitude awareness/panic turn) one is a lack of training and preparedness the other is pushing the edge of their personal envelope... you may consider them stupid, but its not your life they are risking... The FAA, DOT, USPA, NAUI, Local and Federal Laws all say otherwise. the majority of those are designed to protect other people from you and your direct actions... not to protect you from yourself or your own stupidity. A great many DOT, local and Federal regulations ARE prime examples of 'revenue generation schemes' and have very little to do with actual safety issues… Reevaluate to solution. greater restrictions? the statement of understanding and acceptance of the risks involved is not enough?? why not just stop all skydiving.. then no one dies think of all the people you’ll save from themselves No, but you can protect a guy that does not know any better from breaking himself or killing himself due to his ignorance and ego over ridding his skill. A Stiletto is not lower performance than it was, the laws of physics have not changed...Only peoples perceptions of the performance of the canopy....It is still as fast and as deadly as it was when it was released. New skydivers don't think of it as HP since we have guys jumping 58 sq ft Xbraced designs....But just because I can jump a 69, or Mullins can jump a 58, or some guy can jump a 46 does NOT mean YOU can automaticly jump a 107. New skydivers don’t think of it as high performance because it isn’t by modern standards, (and used for students at at least one progressive dropzone) any more than a car from the 30s would be considered high performance.. I suppose we should all learn to drive on and progress through the entire technological range of automobiles before your allowed to get into a mustang as well?? training methods have certainly changed in EVERY field... i now teach skills to performance standards in days that once took months to barely become proficient. ***You also fail to realize that every death, every injury already effects the group. Every time a guy hammers in it gets harder to get insurance as a skydiver....Just because some guy hammers himself in another can't get insurance or it costs more than its worth. Every skydiver that dies makes the FAA look at us to see if we are doing our job at self regulation...Every body that hits the ground makes local and state lawmakers try to pass rules. Every person that dies makes airport access harder. nice hyperbole.. but with little evidence to back it.. the insurance industry is driven by perception and profit, and not actual risk levels or every McD's eating fatass would have higher rates than we do. The FAA doesn’t give a rats ass so long as you don’t hammer in on someone else’s private property or take out a non-participating tax payer. But of course there are people like you that seem eager to invite them in and turn the USPA into the same sort of micromanagement organization that the FAA has become. how about we leave it up to each business owner to decide what risks are acceptable for their customers? why do we need national regulation to deny anyone the right to determine what they will and will not allow their patrons to do within the confines of their business... oh yea.. because you want to impose your personal acceptable risk level on everyone else... who exactly has the real issue with 'letting others play'? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

because i'm not done with it yet even though i had done all of the 'recommended checklist' by my 4th jump on it.. including landing out in an unfamilar field on my second.. but when i've accomplished all of MY objectives with it i'll down size on my own... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

yea about 3 days ago.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

actually most such rules (in sporting organizations) are made up to profit the organization that creates/controls them, and simply pretend an actual increase in safety to sell them to the public. DD and FAA regs are the sole exceptions in your list they are designed to protect OTHER people, not protect people from themselves.. its pointless to fight against mandatory pull altitudes now as that regulation already in place, but they are pretty stupid as well and i'd support a repeal except that it isnt worth the effort. Evidence shows its the introduction and wide spread use of AAD systems like the cypress have contributed more to increased pull altitudes and lower no pull fatalities, and not any written rule book. Disagree? How many people have actually been cited for low pulls since the proliferation of AADs? while i will agree low pull contests are a stupid idea (without the proper gear, with the proper gear they can be performed 'reasonably safely' given what you are actually doing (personal definitions of safety are always relative) as proven by the ever growing BASE community.) But just as i defend your right to say anything i personally consider 'stupid', i also continue to defend the individual right to DO anything i personally consider 'stupid', so long as it only endangers the individual. note i'm referring to physical danger. Your emotional/mental wellbeing is entirely your own problem... if you dont want to witness possible bloodshed and death then dont go to places where people are risking their lives for sport... so since everyone is still avoiding the question.. what will you do when/if people are STILL going in (at a rate of 20-30 per year) under perfectly good canopies EVEN with additional training requirements/restrictions in place? Up the restrictions till only a select handful are allowed to fly at all? lowering your field will lower your number, but it isnt likely do much for the RATIO of incidents... which is the pink elephant no one want to talk about.... knowledge is a wonderful thing, but it in and of it self will do little to PREVENT any accident, or the consequences of a high speed, low altitude mistake by even the most competent pilot... you cant do much to requlate the laws of gravity and inertia.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

rotflmao... nice very nice... nice to see you back as well Chuteless...

if you believe that then you have no skill at stalking (and therefore 'true hunting' at all.... (see attached.. taken at less than 20 m with a simply p&s camera.) Non Sequitur, try again. none, no skill at all. But in fact the exact same ease of selection by those who think they 'earn' their kill by shooting it with a pre-manufactured weapon from their baited field and beer soaked stand... but then i dont call myself a 'hunter', nor do i take pride in the simple slaughter of lesser beings by technological means i had no part in creating.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

sure as long as he can be sued into poverty when he 'accidently' shoots a pet... honestly though i'd rather just leave the lawyers out of it and shoot him instead.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i guess you think you 'earned' them somehow? even when you (most probably, and if you are one of the VERY few, then certainly the majority of hunters who couldnt explain the complete process to create the weapon they use, much less build one themselves) had little to nothing to do with the creation of the actual means you used to kill them? please.. hunting with rifles is a joke. the 'skills' you exhibit are pale shadows of those used by men as little as 400 years ago...but somehow you equate yourself with primitive hunters who hunted for survival instead of sport?? i'm not interested in 'how they die' so much as "what did you do to earn the badge of 'great white hunter'" you seem to wear so proudly...you could quite easily exercise the exact same 'skill' you demonstrated on a firing range...then stop by arby's on your way home.. do you think you could create that weapon and its propellant on your own? if not dont pretend to claim the 'tool' defense.. you 'bought' your deer in the same manner someone buys their steaks from the grocery store...you just picked yours out with a rifle... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

so what happens when/if the numbers dont change significantly.. the ratio may, but the number isnt likely to fluctuate much.. particularly as more people are flying high performance wings.. how many car accidents were there when there were only 100 people driving cars? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

obviously if the majority of DZO's had an issue with what people were/are doing at the rate the are doing it they would have already taken steps to regulate THIER business... and a few have, a very few. If the majority of DZ's decided to over regulate in the fashion you describe it is very likely those who do chose to accept the risks they create for themselves, would take their business and pleasure elsewhere.. then you’d find out exactly how ‘fringe’ those who believe in personal responsibility really are…you dont see many people flocking to the places that have chosen prohibition over personal responsibly do you? apparently the problem isnt as widespread as the chicken little crowd wishes everyone to believe no it is fundamental freedom, self reliance and self determination.. all concepts that have become so diluted and degraded in modern America to the point that many people don’t have never known and cannot imagine what its really like to be free, and make decisions based on personal responsibility and moral code instead of societal, cultural and religious mores..unnecessary rules and restrictions do not make thinking individuals.. they create list reciting drones incapable of independent reason and thought reliant on someone else to tell them what, when, where and how.. and of course hand in hand with the regulated and restrictive society you praise comes the excessive litigation to place the blame on any and everyone except the individual who made the decision that led to their injury/demise so long as your actions affect YOUR life and no one else’s (directly(but go ahead do pull out the statistically insignificant number of incidents where someone’s personal canopy choice has endangered anyone other than the pilot)[/I] it is up to YOU to decide what you do, and what your personal level of risk is..... yes there are those who are in fact wildly out of control, corpses looking for a hole in any endeavor they attempt. They are usually easily identified and simply dealt with. If the individual business owner feels they are a threat to their customers and or their business, just like any other business, "we reserve the right to refuse service, thanks for your money, don’t come back”. It works rather well on a case by case basis and doesn’t infringe on the majority of jumpers, or require a regulating body or 800 pages of documentation to govern and manage from afar. These 'darwin candidates' are also easily the minority (as is obvious even from the limited data we have available), and yet the ‘regulation and restriction’ crowd holds them high as poster children and lumps everyone who has ever made a high speed, low altitude error in the same bucket as those who are wildly out of control to justify their position. no one forces anyone to jump any canopy, or even to jump at all for that matter. So lets pretend Bill’s proposed BSR passes.. Five years goes by and the number [I](but not the ratio which we cant even accurately outline with the given data)[/I] of incidents under perfectly good canopies stays the same.. or even increases.. will you be first in line to scream for more regulation and restrictions to protect people from themselves and their own stupid decisions? Do you believe it is your duty to protect other people from themselves? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

by using modern technological methods and advances designed to 'ensure' a successful hunt (remember it was a matter of survival not sport) you defeat any attempt to claim you are 'recreating an ancient cycle' get out there with a bow and track your prey... anything less is simply cheating yourself and the ideal of 'hunting' ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

so when (i'm not going to say 'if' because it is a 'when') someone who has taken the course and passed the test, and has a shiney gold sticker on their license STILL hammers in, you dont believe the exact same people will not raise the exact same cry? "people are DYING! we've got to DO something, anything! one death is to many!" ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

hmm nice data.. and good info.. a habit i learned from kenjitsu was to set up a base breathing pattern by exhaling for a 10 count and inhaling for a 10 count (beginners should start with 5s) with a bit of practice your body continues the base pattern even after you've stopped thinking about it, and reverts back into it after sudden exertion fairly quickly. i sort of reverted to it on instinct when (for some reason) i was feeling very nervous on my third AFF dive and it made a HUGE difference, my instructor even pointed out the difference on the debrief now whenever i'm anxious about a dive or move i cant seem to get, taking a moment or two to focus on how i'm breathing is incredibly useful to help insure successful dive. I was sure some of the effect was mental clarity from just relaxing but its great to have proof the actual breathing pattern helps as well... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i suppose the scuba police make you stick strictly to your dive table too? the answer is quite obviously we've become an over regulated culture, with to many people who feel it is their job to be their brother's keeper and decide what you can and cannot do with YOUR life.. i've also done most of your list without the required 'ratings' because despite the best efforts of the 'mother hen society' there are still people out there who understand what freedom really means and have no need of a regulating body to decide what they can and cannot do and who and how they will teach to do it... unfortunately more hens are born and bred everyday... [whine]"make the world safe for me...protect me from myself, i cant be trusted with my own life..[/whine] so much for liberty and self determination... unfortunately there are no continents left to emigrate too... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

wise? no.. up to the (adult) jumper? absolutely. you cant legislate against stupidity. you could just as easily argue that bailing out of a functional aircraft isnt 'wise'. quite likely you'll take risks i consider stupid, quite possibly i'll do things you might consider completely insane... i'll be happy tell you so if you ask my opinion(or even if you don’t if you happen to be someone i care about) and i'll certainly do what i can to help mitigate whatever 'unacceptable (for me) risk' i see you taking (offer training, technical advise etc assuming I have some means to make it ‘safer’) but it is not my responsibility to stop you, or my right to legislate restrictions in a misguided attempt protect you from yourself..... smoking isnt wise, drinking isnt wise, high cholesterol, high fat diets are not wise, walking alone at night isnt wise.…. getting the point yet? As an adult those decisions are yours alone to make… personally i dont think jumping rounds is very 'wise', ive watched enough oak enimas to decide it was pretty stupid practice, so i wont do it again but ymmv. i'm not your mother, nor am i trying to live your life for you... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

its Eloy.. it depends on what week it is, and what load it is... but looking around the hanger today.. RW is alive and well... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

if your rig is sized for you you shouldnt need one.. but if your buying a used rig thats a pretty good fit otherwise i can see why its a good idea.... otherwise its just entertainment for the rest of us while your climbing in the plane ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

40ish.. however many jumps it takes for you to be comfortable and able to fly most things on your belly... today i was VERY glad i've practiced belly flying now and them... i dont turn many points, but i've been in 18+ ways... i'd recommend picking weekends (or weeks or months even) to focus on certain skills... (once you have the basics of each) after all, its all human flight.. ps.. your poll options are a bit funky ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

which would you rather? why? what does it mean when someone who usually pounces suddenly feels skittish? ignore me... i'm all emotional.. it will pass.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

High: skipping work to jump with Holly Low: skipping work to jump with Holly i take that back... there really arent any lows today, just reminders that life can be short.. play hard, love hardest it was a fucking amazing jump....simply beautiful ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

risk is fun. basic psychology. why are manufacturers allowed to build motors that permit cars to travel faster than the proscribed speed limits? why not have govener plates on all commercial autos? why, why, why? its called self determination, no one else can decide what your acceptable risk level is but you.. its your life, (once your an adult)... risk it anyway you chose...and accept that while others might find your choices stupid, they dont live for you... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

and what would you estimate the ratio of good landing to bad landings is just based on observation at perris? ballpark? makes me wonder even more if some people are taking the 'one bad apple spoils the bunch" approach to regulation... although i like your latest BSR proposal, i cant see how some people justify their claims of 'the sky is falling under perfectly good canopies' based on a handful of spectacularly bloody failures while ignoring the MUCH higher number of successful jumps and jumpers... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

next to none... and we'd have a lot less assholes (and fewer adventurous geniuses)... but the lions, tigers and bears would be MUCH better fed.... honestly the scariest sound i've ever heard, was the deep low growl of a nursing tiger.... no where else have a felt that little monkey in the back of my skull quiver or wanted to run in terror, but it was also one of the most incredible experiences of my life... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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