Robert99

attached - I assume you have the map so wont attach it - I have the color version if you want it - Orange was talking about the radio transcripts. The attachments are the write-up for the first landing zone estimate and only redact names.

Orange, Take a look at the Seattle Center ATC transcripts and compare them with the Oakland Center ATC transcripts. After the airliner was about 17 DME miles south of the Seattle VORTAC (which is located on the Seattle airport), there is no way to determine the actual location of the aircraft until it was being handed off to the Oakland Center just a few miles north of the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. The Oakland Center transcripts include the phone talk between the controllers as well as the communications between controllers and the airliner and includes information on the location of the airliner. As such, the Oakland Center transcripts represent real life and the Seattle Center transcripts do not. There are gaps of all kinds in the Seattle transcripts, including an 18-minute one at almost the very minute that Cooper supposedly jumped. Rose Mary Woods, of Nixon's Watergate Scandal fame, would be proud that someone exceeded her famous 17 minute gap in one of the White House tapes.

The flight crew looking out the window (especially during daylight hours) plus their weather radar (good both day and night) have the very latest weather information on just about everything except clear air turbulence. And it is very unlikely that there was any clear air turbulence in the Seattle and Portland areas that evening at the altitudes of interest here. In my personal opinion, it is unlikely that NWA could have such an advantage over what the National Weather Service was passing to other aircraft.

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. Are you talking about systems to determine the turbulence, and things such as wind shear, in the immediate vicinity of airports? I was refering to the enroute phase of flight and how information would be transmitted to those aircraft. Also, I failed to mention that each airliner's onboard weather radar would show rainfall to one degree or another and that may, or may not, indicate turbulence. It depends on the pilots skill at understanding what they see on the radar and taking appropriate actions to avoid severe weather if such actions are believed to be necessary.

Is that based on the "4 minutes behind"? And the 7pm was just a guess based on what info I could find in the transcripts about when the airport closure ended. It could easily have taken another half hour for that closure to have actually been lifted. Yes. My understanding is that Bohan left Seattle four minutes after the hijacked airliner. Bohan could take the V-23 East airway, with its higher terrain clearance altitude (which the hijacked airliner could have had problems with), direct to the then PDX VORTAC and save about three miles total distance over the NWA flight on V-23. Otherwise, I don't understand what Bohan means by "four minutes behind". Perhaps Mrs. Bohan will provide some information to Bruce Smith that will help clarify this.

A key part of the turbulence plot system NWA had already developed (and fielded) was the acquisition of info regarding at least the more extreme weather directly from weather stations. Sowa arranged this to get info earlier so it could be more useful for hazard warnings. I haven't seen any specifics about what this advance info was. Point is, it came from weather bureau and FAA stations, but not via the "normal" disemination system. If the possibility of extreme weather suddenly surfaced, it would have been transmitted through all available means including sequence reports, voice messages on the VORTAC navigation system, and probably controller to pilot communications on the ATC system. Is there any evidence that this was done?

The hijacked airliner didn't take off until 7:36 PM PST (according to the FBI notes). Presumably, Bohan would not have taken off prior to about 7:40 PM PST.

Hominid, There is a map on Sluggo's web page describing the first guess at where Cooper jumped and his possible landing area. A write-up accompanies this map and states that the weather information used in compiling the map was provided by the "Redacted" NWA Meteorology Chief. From this map and write-up an estimate can be made of the winds and their direction that was used in that exercise. But did the NWA weather people have access to information other than that provided by the FAA and National Weather Service? No, they did not. If anyone disagrees with this, then state where that information came from.

Bruce, Please ask Mrs. Bohan if the Captain's log book indicates his take-off time from Seattle and landing time in Portland (wheels off to wheels on). Also, the total time logged which would be the gate-to-gate (or block-to-block) time plus which Victor Airway he was on (presumably it was V-23 East).

Only you are discussing it to death. Only you are repeating it! Only you needs to repeat it! (to salvage your wrong fact) George Nuttal's facsimile of a letter from his co- researcher that quotes Ralph Himmelsbach, that quotes the pilots: Are Abraham and Moses in there somewhere, according to Mark, Luke, and John, and Nuttal's co-researcher. To say you are stubborn is an understatement. To say others INTERVIEWED the crew many times over, is the truth. SA Larry Carr gave one account. So, you have your single source three to four times removed. Others have their sources, which are direct testimony in interviews from the principles who were there. Period. You dont even leave any latitude for a raindrop squeaking through your net of solid damned certainty! This has clearly become an obsession with you - for personal reasons. For one thing Robert99, how many people flew over Portland and the vicinity that night! Count em!! How many people were on the ground looking up that night, for one reason or another. You make this sound like George Nuttal's book is the sole witness to existence that night. Not true. You dont have a sole contract with the truth here - sorry. So, at the very least we have a direct conflict in testimony, not to mention analysis. Your absolutism is no solution? About two sentences after the original quotation from Nuttall's book is another quotation from Himmelsbach to the effect that he (Himmelsbach) had talked to Radaczak about the time the money was found at Tena Bar. You are the one making allegations about the weather, flight path, and other factors that don't agree with your personal wishes. When is your book coming out? I would suggest that you get your ducks lined up properly before publication. But in reality, that doesn't seem to keep people from publishing books on the Cooper matter.

There were signal towers - I have the maps with the towers on them. What kind of tower they were I do NOT know - but they all had lights on top of them. Signal tower of some sort. I am out of here for awhile. Knoss has made garbage out of the thread. Enjoyed reading the posts that are actually productive such as Homid, Georger and Robert99. Since you guys have never seen my time lines (note I did not detail what I posted) less Mr. K incorporate them into his fantasy. This has gotten ridiculous. Those who know me can reach me at my private email address, but I won't open anything from Knoss. Georger - since you don't share you email address learn to send me a BLIND email that will NOT have a return address on it. Just note in the heading - this is Georger or re-garding Cooper. Jo, Towers above a certain height are required by Federal Regulations to have lights on them. Those lights do not signify the purpose of the towers.

Silly woman! How can you be so blind? They are the COOPER CREW! It is their freeking JOB to destroy the truth. I'm amazed that Robert99 and Homenid were able to fast track the correct weather. Great job! But that is only a clue to what other facts were twisted, not evidence by itself. Next fact to correct is that the flight was WEST of Portland, not EAST. See Robert99 again. See my map. See "Janet's" report. Verified by McCoy, privately reported to Ralph by co-pilot. This opens a big door to the truth. This is obvious evidence that any novice can see. Since this has been discussed to death several times already (see the "Sailshaw Series"), it is being repeated only for the benefit of the people with a short memory, no memory at all, or don't want to remember in the first place. In his book on the Cooper hijacking, George Nuttal includes a facsimile of a letter from his co-researcher (see page 95) that has the following quotation from Ralph Himmelsbach: "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they [i.e., the pilot and co-pilot] couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights." So who are you going to believe, Ralph H. and the pilots or Jo and others and their special pleadings that they know better than the people who were there. Also Jo, in 1971 there were no "towers in a triangle" anywhere in the Northwest USA that were used for aircraft navigation. And I doubt if there were ever such towers in the first place for aircraft navigation uses. They would not be suitable for the correct radio frequencies among other things.

At this point, that is a viable theory. At the instant that Cooper hit the full air stream, the wind chill factor would be 35-40 degrees below zero (F and C are about the same thing in that range).

Hominid, You are correct that this message is not related to the hijacking. Note that it was sent one minute after the previous message which was related to the hijacked airliner. And it was probably included here by mistake. Also note that the these separate messages start with the GMT date (which was 11/25 at that time) and that the GMT time is given on the bottom line of each message along with the PST time which is 8 hours BEHIND the GMT time. The two sets of initials before and after the GMT time probably are an identification of the person who typed them into the NWA teletype net and the specific segment of the teletype net. My guess is that the message in question is a simple position report from a NWA flight to the MSP Operations office. Here is my "translation": "NWA flight number 22, over O'Neill (which would be a VORTAC or other navigational fix), at 32 (minutes after the hour and two minutes before this message was sent), at flight level 370 (37,000 feet), estimated time of arrival at MSP 0420 GMT (48 minutes after passing over O'Neill). Temperature -60 degrees Centigrade, winds from 305 degrees (true) at 85 knots." Further to the above, the O'Neill VORTAC is located on the airport at O'Neill, Nebraska about 325 statute miles from Minneapolis-St. Paul. So the airliner was probably getting a hefty tailwind component. And the 0420 GMT time would be the gate time of about 10:20 PM CST on November 24th. Although I can't find the sources at this particular moment, while on the ground in Seattle, the crew of NWA 305 was informed that the only significant weather they might encounter was some haze at 10,000 feet somewhere south of Portland (but still in Oregon). The FBI notes includes an entry that the airliner had to use its anti-icing equipment when it reached that area.

Himmelsbach did NOT write his book - Himmelsbach tried to catch mistakes made by the writer, but he told me himself that things slid thru. There were lots of questions I put to Ralph about things in his book - and if I pulled the book out there are notations about things I personally questioned him about seeming to conflict thing I was reading in old newpapers and other articles. Himmelsbach is listed as the senior author of his book. Perhaps I have been mis-informed, but that generally means that he has some responsibility for what is in the book. Just because his book contains incorrect information doesn't mean that he can pass the buck to someone else. If you are going to take some of the credit, you must also take some of the blame when things go wrong.

To put some more words in Bohan's mouth, what he was probably trying to say was "I was at 14,000 feet and tracking down V-23E to the PDX VORTAC on a magnetic course of 165 degrees (the 166 would be a mistake made in Ralph H.'s book)." Bohan continues, "While on a magnetic course of 165 degrees, I assigned the First Officer the task of determining the head wind speed. The FO concluded that the wind was on our nose (no specific direction named) at 80 knots."

Farflung, Prior to this discussion, I have never heard of a wind from 160 degrees at 66 knots. This is not found in any source that I am aware of related to the Cooper hijacking. It is not what Bohan was quoted as saying. Bohan was quoted as saying that the wind at 14,000 feet was from 166 degrees magnetic at 80 knots. At the approximate time Bohan would have been landing in Portland, the ground wind was listed as being about 10 MPH from a southerly to southwesterly direction.

He might have had one of those Duane Weber transistorized back brace back brace tactile flight directors. The inertial inputs came from home brewed ring laser gyros and accelerometers that Duane cobbed up from some old CB radios. 377 On pages 111-112 of his book, Ralph H. states that Bohan, who was at 14,000 feet, said "I had 80 knots of wind, from 166 degrees, right on my nose." In 1971, V-23E was an airway from the SEA VORTAC direct to the PDX VORTAC (which is now named the BTG VORTAC). Aircraft flying south on this airway would track out the 165 radial from SEA and inbound to PDX on the 345 radial. If Bohan was on V-23E, and he probably was, his magnetic course would be 165 degrees for the entire enroute phase of his flight. If the 80 knot headwind was from 166 degrees, it would be right on his nose. In 1971, Bohan would probably have to calculate his True Air Speed using an E-6B, or its Jepperson equivalent, and then deduct his ground speed which he could read from the DME. If the supposed wind was right on his nose, then no crosswind component would need to be estimated. The hijacked airliner was on V-23 which went from the SEA VORTAC to the Mayfield Intersection and then inbound to the PDX VORTAC. So the two aircraft were probably on different airways. The crosswind landing capability for a 727 probably included demonstrated landings in crosswinds of 25 to 30 knots. And that would be within the skill level of line pilots during routine operations. And if you have been watching YouTube videos lately, some European pilots have been landing in crosswinds much greater than that.

Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged.

Quote Bruce writes: So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Robert99 replies: The short answer is none. To some extent, it may have been a case of people describing 10 MPH ground winds, 45 degrees F temperatures, and light rain showers as "miserable". But there is a difference between "qualitative" and "quantative" data. The existence of a Captain Bohan, as Hominid points out, remains to be proven. Bruce writes: Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. Robert99 replies: Don't hold your breath waiting for an interview with DB Cooper. In all probability, Cooper was dead within a minute of separating from the airliner. Bruce writes: BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in fourty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm?

Hominid, You have drawn the correct conclusions in this matter.

It looks like a World War 2 era test of a rough field landing system on a B-26. When the B-26 left the active inventory, another WW2 era aircraft designated the A-26 was re-named the B-26 and was used in such places as Korea and Vietnam in special roles and also as a multi-engine trainer for USAF pilots. There were quite a few "unusual landing gear" systems tested during WW2 and very few, if any, made it into production aircraft.

Brilliant idea. Hint: He's not here. Exactly, the JC on this thread is not Him. Instead, She is someone else.

Blevins, How could you possibly be "lost" for 34 days? The people I know would have been drummed out of the Cub Scouts and/or Campfire Girls if they had been "lost" for 34 minutes. Obviously, Seattle does not have a Polar Bear Club where the members break a hole in the ice and go swimming on January 1st.

FYI, Thanks again to Georger for posting all that weather information recently. Contrary to his statement, that was the first weather information for November 24, 1971 that I can remember receiving from him. But now that the information is at hand, Hominid has been doing some posting related to it on Sluggo's Yahoo thread. Hominid is currently away but will resume that posting when he returns. In addition, I plan to do my own interpretation of that weather for various points in Oregon and Washington and will post it in due time. Hominid has the option of going first with these posts (and taking the flack that they will receive). I am just saying that the weather discussion is not over yet and there will be more in a week or two. Also, it is hoped that the posts Hominid and I put out in the near future will be "comprehensive" and get the entire information in one place. Haggling over bits and pieces at a time is not the way to go.