Robert99

Start with Blevins. He could benefit from the experience.

Blevins, I have an investigative proposal for you. You have mentioned the Tena Bar money a number of times and suggested that the money found there was the same money Cooper offered to the flight attendants. As I understand it, the money given to Cooper was from a selected and previously photogaphed fund that the bank in question had specifically created for just such things as hijackings, ransoms, etc. Some sources have stated that the FBI microfilmed the money as they prepared it to go the the airport. Tosaw's book has an FBI list of the serial numbers of the ransom bills in non-sequential order so it appears that the list was made of bills that were rather rapidly collected for the ransom. I understand that more than $5000 in bills was found at Tena Bar but, if this is true, I have no idea how many of these 250+ bills had an identifiable serial number. Assuming that the serial numbers of a reasonable number of the Tena Bar bills are known, and assuming that the bills were put in bundles in essentially the same order that the serial numbers appear in the FBI list, then perhaps Blevins could take the Tena Bar serial numbers and check them off against the FBI list. If the above assumptions are correct, then the Tena Bar bills should appear in groups in the FBI list. And that would give some evidence as to how the ransom bills were assembled. What would this prove? Nothing that I can think. Blevins, if you would be willing to undertake this task, it would get KC off your mind for a day or two. And it might even get Georger off your back for the same amount of time. Do you accept the task?

Perhaps "camo" was a poor choice of words here. It appears to me that the chute is a tannish color and consistent throughout. By that I mean it looks like the color came from being dyed. If the color came from being buried in the ground, I think it would not be consisent throughout and there would be whiter and/or darker areas showing in the canopy. Old Lady Knowledge: When I was a girl on a farm in the 40's and 50's my mother used to dye sheets and other items. From what I remember of these dyed items - I believe that Robert99 is probably correct in stating the item was dyed. I do NOT feel like trying to find an old photo of the chute, but did the cords not also appear to have this dusty pinkish/tan color or where they white? I agree that something that has been in the ground would discolor in streaks and other odd patterns. Just OLD WOMAN questions. I know nothing about chutes and how one would dye one. Just curious about the color of the cords. I don't try to down load the U-tube stuff - only have dial-up. It is also obvious from Amazon's video that the chute is dirty. But I still don't think the canopy and shroud lines were completely white to begin with.

Perhaps "camo" was a poor choice of words here. It appears to me that the chute is a tannish color and consistent throughout. By that I mean it looks like the color came from being dyed. If the color came from being buried in the ground, I think it would not be consisent throughout and there would be whiter and/or darker areas showing in the canopy.

BK, You need three points for a triangulation. And a further complication is that you need to be able to see the lights in the first place. The flight crew couldn't.

That's right, Tom. On a strictly unprofessional note, how many parachutes does anyone think are buried near 305's flight path that just happen to be found inside Cooper's possible DZ? Ha...they just keep popping up all the time like dandelions. Occam would not say that the Amboy chute was Cooper's. He MIGHT say it deserves a closer look. The placard was found about 30 nautical miles up V-23 from the present day BTG VORTAC and about one nautical mile northeast of the V-23 centerline. This was also about 12 nautical miles toward the BTG VORTAC from the present day Malay Intersection. The stairs were deployed to one degree or another about half way between the Malay Intersection and the Seattle VORTAC. That would be at least 20 minutes before the placard seperated from the aircraft. In the case of the Amboy parachute, emergency parachutes of that era (and also today) were typically a white color although some military parachutes also had panels of bright red or other colors to help in locating the parachutist after he landed. Cargo parachutes quite frequently were of a camo color to help conceal the location of the drop. The Amboy parachute pictures, at least to me, seem to indicate a camo colored parachute rather than an emergency parachute that changed colors due to being buried. The color seems to be consistent throughout the fabric and shroud lines and I don't think that would be caused by ground burial. But if anyone ever has an opportunity to check the Amboy parachute, please note how the shroud lines are connected to the risers and the number of shroud lines per riser. There is something unique, which I won't mention at this point, about the parachute that Cooper supposedly took and this factor alone could rule out the Amboy parachute regardless of where it came from. EDIT: To comment on Blevins statements about the dam lights, Blevins should remember that the airline crew could not see the lights of Vancouver and Portland as they passed through the area. The sum of those city lights is vastly brighter than the lights from the dam.

How the hell should I know the answers to these questions? I've never seen anything of the Amboy chute except the pics that were released, some of the chute by iteself, others with Agent Robbie Burroughs standing next to it. You should be contacting the Seattle FBI office with your questions, since THEY are the ones currently in possession of the parachute. Special Agent Fred Gutt is a good start. My position on the Amboy chute is well-known, and it has nothing to do with Kenny Christiansen. The FBI gave a certain explanation about it. I say their explanation just plain does not make sense. So...what IS the truth on it, and why did they bury the issue so quickly, based on a story full of more holes than a five-pound block of Swiss cheese? You could ask the Seattle office for a look at the chute...someone should...a group of local chute experts, perhaps. Point of order: Chute not found in the brush. Chute was buried, missing the container and harness. Side Note: If you are looking at the map I attached with the notes, the famous placard from the plane was found just north of the town of Ariel. (Seattle Times article shot attached) My, my, my, aren't we crabby today. Other than the FBI's statement, do you see anything about the canopy that might help straighten the matter out? On where the placard was found, I would suggest that you take another look at Tom Kaye's web page. It seems that the placard was found almost 20 statute miles north-northwest of Ariel.

I never said I was a parachute expert. But I CAN read a map, and the FBI's dual-edged, lame-o explanation on the Amboy parachute does not wash. By 'dual-edged' I mean this: First, they have Cossey saying that it can't be Cooper's because it's silk and not nylon. Second, because they use Lt. Floyd Walling as the explanation and that doesn't wash either. Third, they admitted it was a military chute. We will forget the part where they say it 'could' be from an NB-6, although if it was military there is a good chance it did. This has nothing to do with being a chute expert. It has to do with logic and facts. On the case of Walling, there are known facts. I want you to study that map image once again closely and after seeing it, try to tell me that the Seattle FBI got it right on the Amboy chute. I say they didn't. And if so, what is the real explanation for it? THEY were the ones that put forward that explanation, not I. All I'm doing is questioning it, and judging from the evidence, I'd say it's a legit bit of questioning. We understand the issues at stake and the logic involved -= you dont have to "school" us, Oh Grayt One-Thingie. As usually happens (in your case) you are missing data. I suggest we wait until the data is available, before getting stalled in the winter mountains for 3000 days ..... with a road(it turns out) closeby. Ponder that, abominable thingie-thingie. This case existed before you. It will definately exist after you. That is 100% guaronteed, thing-thingie. Blevins, I have ask you a very simple question. If you found a parachute in the brush, would the way the shroud lines were attached to the risers means anything to you? Yes or no! Also, do you know how many shroud lines Cooper's back pack canopy had in the first place? HINT: It was quite probably a multiple of four. Small details, such as the above, might help you identify a canopy if you came across one somewhere.

Blevins, Since you are now apparently the parachute expert on this thread, tell me how the shroud lines were connected to the risers (from the harness) in the back parachute that Cooper used. Were seperable links used? This is not a trick question, but a correct answer is necessary for you to maintain your "expert" rating.

An excellent idea. Let's do that.

Blevins, Please do some research and find out what technique Noonan would be using just to make certain that he knew which side of Howland Island they were on. It is the same technique that he used on the trans-Atlantic flight from South America to Africa (the maps used on that leg were mailed back and are available today). In addition, the Electra's cruise speed was more like 140 to 150 MPH rather than the 190 MPH you mentioned a couple of days ago. Further, its range was nowhere near 4000 miles unless it had about a 100 MPH tail wind over the entire flight. Take a look at the web page in Smokin99's post.

I haven't read everything, so might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that they had taken it as far as they were going to and published all their stuff here. http://searchforamelia.org/ From questions and comments page at above site....The Waitt Institute’s search for Amelia Earhart’s plane has concluded and unfortunately, we did not find the aircraft. However, with the hope that future searchers may be able to build upon the work we’ve done, we’ve elected to publish our research and results—including all sonar data from the mission—on this site. We take full responsibility for our work, including any and all calculations or assumptions, whether accurate or otherwise. We are confident Earhart’s plane is not in area of seafloor we surveyed. All appropriate comments submitted here will be posted on our ‘What We’ve Heard’ page unless you request otherwise in writing. Our goal is to generate positive dialogue and fresh ideas about where Amelia’s plane may still be found. If our research helps you with this purpose, we are grateful. In any case, please view this page as a platform where you can share your own theories and suggestions about what you think happened to the ill-fated World Flight. Smokin, The link you include is apparently the portal that the Waitt web page referred to. However, I didn't see the link on their web page. In any event, it contains a tremendous amount of informaton.

Probably something from J Edgar's files that is very embarassing. Seemed so out of character for Hillary to hook up with a semi fringe oufit that smokes hopium and sees visions of Nikumaroro Island miracles. Amelia Earhart is one thing, but TIGHAR is another. I still think there is a good chance that Amelia's plane will be found. It just takes millions of dollars, patience and a good side scan sonar. I was hoping these guys would find it, but no cigar. http://www.nauticos.com/amelia.htm That Tena bar money still drives me nuts. I just can't come up with a good explanation that fits the other evidence. Wish Sluggo would drop in and just say hello. I miss that guy. 377 The Waitt Foundation did an underwater search for AE in 2009 and according to information on their web page they searched more than 2000 square miles and could image objects more than 5,200 meters down. Such small objects as chains and drums could be located. About a year ago, I read of what they were doing and thought they were checking in the vicinity of Howland Island and that they planned another search this coming July. But I have just checked their web page again and it doesn't mention an island name and doesn't say anything about another search. However, they apparently have an Earhart portal although I couldn't find it. I don't know if they have anything to do with TIGHAR's coming July search. But Waitt would seem to have the technical capabilities to find the Earhart aircraft if they search in the right area.

Are you referring to Gary L? Yes, I have read his impressive nav analysis. I did celestial nav on tuna boats. Still have my sextant, sight reduction tables and Bowditch book. Back in the day there was no GPS and there were many parts of the Pacific where LORAN coverage was spotty or absent. I remember synching my watch to radio time signals every day right before I took a noon sun sight. No automatic "atomic clock" synching like today, I am talking about listening to a voice announcement from the National Bureau of Standards station WWV on shortwave (usually 10.0 or 15.00 MHz) and setting my watch manually. I've flown over Pacific island areas and I can tell you if there are spotty clouds and the sun angle is casting cloud shadows on the water, it is nearly impossible to visually distinguish a low profile island from a sun shadow. They look identical from a distance. 377 You've got the right name. I used to live in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia and every day at noon one or more of the local radio stations would give a time tone at precisely noon for the benefit of the fishing boats off the coast. You are also right about the cloud shadows being very easily mistaken for land. In the Bahamas, inexperienced overwater pilots from Florida chasing shadows is believed to be the cause of them eventually ending up ditching. After chasing a couple of mistaken shadows, the pilots get confused and are not really sure which planet they are on anymore. Gary LaPook. "When they were unable to get the radio signals they needed it is almost certain that Noonan would have turned off to the left to intercept a sun line LOP to the northwest of the island. From sunrise at about 1745 Z (0615 Itasca time) and for more than an hour afterwards, the azimuth of the sun remained 067º T so the resulting LOP ran 157-337º True. Noonan would have intercepted this LOP and followed it to Howland using the "single LOP landfall procedure" popularized by Chichester as "deliberate error" and also known as deliberate offset. This method had sufficient accuracy to allow them to find Howland and was taught to all flight navigators and was used thousands of times successfully during WW 2 and after to find small island destinations. In addition, the moon was also visible and provided good cuts with the sun line to provide daylight fixes.AE's last transmission at 2013 Z (0843 Itasca Time) stated they were on the 157º-337º line of position." https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/discussio ns/amelia-earhart-s-flight-basic-facts cont... "Contrary to TIGHAR's premise, there was no way to navigate along the "157º-337º LOP" to Nikumaroro (I have written countless posts about this, the navigation is quite simple even though to non navigators it might sound complicated. To a navigator it is no more complex than getting in your car and driving to the supermarket to get a gallon of milk) so they did _not_ end up on that island." . . . v-sin i delta V edit count/C[n.....ns] LOP = [blevins/Oort Cloud] Georger, You have found some of Gary LaPook's writings although I am not certain that you found his "fredienoonan" page. [ADDENDUM: After taking the time to actually read the web page citation above, it is obvious that you did find his "fredienoonan" page.] There is a ton of additional information about celestial navigation on that page. Those equations also look familiar but I am not sure where they came from. Does anyone know what TIGHAR has on the U.S. Department of State to get them involved in his planned July search on Nikumaroro? TIGHAR is fixated on that island based on no realistic evidence at all.

Are you referring to Gary L? Yes, I have read his impressive nav analysis. I did celestial nav on tuna boats. Still have my sextant, sight reduction tables and Bowditch book. Back in the day there was no GPS and there were many parts of the Pacific where LORAN coverage was spotty or absent. I remember synching my watch to radio time signals every day right before I took a noon sun sight. No automatic "atomic clock" synching like today, I am talking about listening to a voice announcement from the National Bureau of Standards station WWV on shortwave (usually 10.0 or 15.00 MHz) and setting my watch manually. I've flown over Pacific island areas and I can tell you if there are spotty clouds and the sun angle is casting cloud shadows on the water, it is nearly impossible to visually distinguish a low profile island from a sun shadow. They look identical from a distance. 377 You've got the right name. I used to live in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia and every day at noon one or more of the local radio stations would give a time tone at precisely noon for the benefit of the fishing boats off the coast. You are also right about the cloud shadows being very easily mistaken for land. In the Bahamas, inexperienced overwater pilots from Florida chasing shadows is believed to be the cause of them eventually ending up ditching. After chasing a couple of mistaken shadows, the pilots get confused and are not really sure which planet they are on anymore.

Blevins, a real, genuine, honest-to-God "expert", who actually knows what he is doing, has already done just about everything that can be done on the navigational aspects of Earhart's last flight. And it is a bit more complex than just being able to find Polaris. Since I suggested that you visit two web sites, I can hardly be accurately accused of being insulted by discussing Earhart on the Internet. It is within the realm of possibility that 377 knows, or knows of, the individual I mentioned only by his initials.

Blevins, First the KC matter. You are now saying that you don't have "proof" that KC was Cooper but that you have "proof" that he was a suspect. My advice is to get a dictionary and see what the word "proof" actually means. On the AE matter, as I have previously stated, an excellent place to start is the TIGHAR web page. Fred Noonan was the best aircraft celestial navigator of his day (1930s). He was also a celestial navigator for ships and held the same pilot license as Amelia Earhart. You are apparently not familiar with how celestial navigation is conducted. But an individual whose initials are GL, and who has been publicly described as the best aircraft celestial navigator of the present day (2012), has done an extremely detailed analysis of the flight from Lae to Howland Island. GL has stated that the TIGHAR theory cannot be correct for what Earhart and Noonan did after arriving in the vicinity of Howland Island and he has told Ric Gillespie why. But Gillespie has ignored him. GL has extensively documented what steps Noonan would have gone through in the approach to Howland Island and it is posted on his web page. GL also has on that web page more information on celestial navigation theory, sextants, and other navigational aspects of the Earhart flight than any layman will ever be able to understand. To "Cooperize" Earhart, Noonan, and GL on a thread such as this would be the ultimate insult to all of them. So if you want to get some facts on that flight go to GL's web page for the navigational aspects and also take advantage of TIGHAR's collection of documents related to the flight. But again, TIGHAR's speculations about what happened after Earhart arrived in the area of Howland Island should be ignored. Based on your previously written accounts of having been lost for 30 days in the mountains, all the while within 5 to 10 miles of an Interstate highway, suggests that you have some things to learn about any form of navigation. But perhaps you can use your computer to help find GL's web page. And once more, to "Cooperize" the Earhart final flight is a gross insult to her, Noonan, and GL.

QuoteBlevins writes: A separate thread regarding Amelia Earhart would not be a bad idea for DZ. R99 replies: QUADE! FOR GOD'S SAKE, DON'T LET AN EARHART THREAD GET STARTED ON DROPZONE! DRIVE A SILVER SPIKE THROUGH ITS HEART AND KILL IT DEADER THAN HELL! Blevins writes: About TIGHAR: You have to give them this much...they've done a lot of work with all the available radio transmissions, articles, diaries, and other documents related to Earhart. R99 replies: TIGHAR has an excellent web page, but their analysis of the end of her final flight is totally flawed. Blevins writes: OCCAM SAYS: Once Earhart and Noonan got down to a few hours' worth of fuel, and realized the radio and their navigation was getting them nowhere, they may have started just looking for a place to land. ANY place to land. Put yourself into their shoes for a moment. No com, not sure where they are anymore, flying time running out. You start looking for a spot other than WATER. Grab that map, get serious. Call me crazy, but that's what I'd do.

The bad news is that they are searching 300 miles from where they should be looking.

Who were these attorneys Bob? Name them. Will they verify your claims? 377 If BK was under hypnosis, how could he remember anything about the meeting?

I told the draftboard lady on the phone I would go to Canada before going through induction. Two FBI agents visited the doctor who wrote my medical excuse. Told him never to do that again. (I had my draftboard files searched. I was dating the secretary at the draftboard office. There is nothing there. I also searched my files through the Freedom of Information Act. Nothing there.) My draftboard contacted me and offered me an opportunity to participate in a Civil Service "FAA-FBI project" she had talked to McCoy about. I said, "Yes." My draftboard handed me off to Commander Anderson who was in charge of ROTC at the U. He also ran for President of the U.S. Yes. That guy. I signed a Top Secret Document with big red writing across the top while in the presence of Anderson, McCoy, and the hypnotist, Doctor Black. POOF. McCoy had that sheet. When they plan a covert operation I don't think they are going to leave those kind of documents laying around for general consumption in open files. THAT is REALLY nieve! I expected to get something with the Freedom Act. Afterwards, Mac said Nixon gave a general pardon that included me, and that he had 'purged' my files just like he did Duane's at the insurance company. Yes, convenient. He spent hours and hours removing pictures and references of himself from the internet. He left a few 'special' shots of himself with stars. Really big on his self image. I think he wrote his own bio for Wiki. Sounds like his version of McGod on Earth. Everything was "we" with him. No, Bobby, you can't pull a skunk out of your hat on me. All the talking witnesses are dead. The living ones respect what was done. Even Ralph didn't know about my suspended sentence. Mac knows. I know. I think you will find most everyone in my graduating class enlisted or was inducted except me. Jack Watters went to Canada, AWOL. I was 2S, then 1Y then 3A, for what that's worth. I was also critically active on AAA military contracts for supplies to Vietnam during that period. Only went to one induction and walked out. THAT was fun! Goose egg, Blevins! It is your job to belittle and try to humiliate me, I know, Cooper Crew and all that. But I have a lot truer ring of reality than the string of Porterious fables you bought into. I think you are still on that turnip truck. I don't have to guess at what happened or rely on someone else's guesses. I recorded history for Mac. BK, You claim to have been "arrested" (if that is the right word here) by the military for threatening a draft board clerk by telling her that you were going to Canada. Was that really a threat to the lady or just you running your mouth? Also, if you actually committed a crime and were arrested it would have been by civilian police, either local or federal, since you were also a civilian. Your claim to having a "Top Secret" security clearance is laughable. It is unlikely that you were ever in the military or had a security clearance of any kind. Your claims don't even pass the low threshold for your usual nonsense.

Right. No onboard meals were served, only snacks and drinks. I would ask Geoff Gray this question. Never heard this to be a fact. The crew, in general, were more than willing to do whatever Cooper asked, since they were afraid he might blow the plane in flight, anyway. No dogsl just pigs and monkies and some lowlifes from Auburn Washington leading clydsdales, four abreast. Oh a wolverines too! They all were sucking Popeye lolly pops. Actually, I believe 5 box meals were sent to the aircraft by Al Lee while it was on the ground in Seattle. They were in another box which also contained the additional aeronautical charts that the crew would need to fly to Reno and other points south.

I have some questions about the Reno FBI's initial entry into flight 305's cabin... Did they have dogs? I believe I remember the crew getting food in Seattle...right or wrong? If they did order food that means the galley was empty and it just may have been the garbage strewn about. I don't remember where...but I believe I read that the flight crew tried maneuvers to get the hijacker off the steps...that could be a total fabrication as I can't remember where that rumor/factoid came from. Sounds like a skydiver food fight...... hangdiver As I understand it, Flight 305 had a couple of stops somewhere between Minneapolis and Portland. Presumably, a full lunch service would have been included on one of those legs. Did NWA unload the gallley trash and cutlery in Portland or did they haul it on to Seattle and unload it there plus stock up on meals for the next leg that the aircraft would fly? My guess is Seattle, an NWA hub, is where the NWA meal service would have been loaded for the next leg. So there may have been nothing (except for the usual sodas and peanut type snacks for kids) on board the airliner at the time it was hijacked. And, of course, the liquor service. The meal carts would have been secured before the landing in Portland and left there since no particular food service was offered on the leg to Seattle. So how did some food get scattered over the rear portion of the cabin? It would probably come from the serving carts trash. And it would take a lot of airflow, which the FBI didn't find during their trials, or a lot of vigorous aircraft maneuvering to get the food remants out of the carts. Just remember that the flight crew had been informed by the Chief FAA Psychiatrist in Washington that Cooper would probably blow up the aircraft when he jumped. That information is in the Seattle ground radio transcripts. When Cooper headed down those stairs, he was no longer in control of the situation. If you were a flight crew member, would you trust Cooper not to blow you out of the sky? Or would you take the opportunity to control your own fate as much as possible?

A couple of points. First, you previously gave an estimated jump time of 8:12 to 8:16 which is a five minute interval. Since the airliner had a ground speed of more than 3 nautical miles per minute between the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection and the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC, it could have covered more than 15 nautical miles in that time period if it was on the V-23 centerline. Assume that the airliner was at the Mayfield Intersection at exactly 8:00PM (and that is a very good estimate), and using the above information, what time would it arrive at the PDX VORTAC which was 41 nautical miles away. According to my calculations, it would take less than 14 minutes to cover that distance or 8:14PM at the absolute latest. So using your times, Cooper would have jumped not more than about 6 nautical miles north of the PDX VORTAC and maybe up to 9 nautical miles south of that VORTAC or practically over the Portland airport. Let me state for the record that I don't believe all of the above. Second, in the last sentence of you post you state that food was scattered over the rear portion of the cabin of the aircraft after it landed in Reno. During the FBI's later flight tests, agents remarked about how calm the wind was in the rear portion of the cabin. So how do you explain the food getting scattered around as was reported? And this is a valid question.

You are the expert, sorry if I misunderstood. Who told flight 305 to stay clear of Portland with a bomb and to go around, if it wasn't Portland?? I just read the transcript, not paying too much attention to where it came from. Please don't refer to me as an "expert". That word means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And some of the meanings are not nice. I don't remember anything in the radio transcripts about the airliner being told to fly around Portland. However, while still on the ground in Seattle, the crew discussed getting above the overcast and then flying out over the Pacific until things got resolved. But they were over ruled on that. But as I have pointed out before, there are a lot of things missing from the Seattle ATC transcripts.