Robert99

Jerry, I understand your statements. It was quite cloudy in Portland, the visibility at the airport was about 10 statute miles, there were light rain showers in the area. The temperature was in the 40s all day long. Everything adds up to a relatively miserable day for people who were outside in the weather. The aircraft in and out of the Portland area were definitely having to fly on instruments. Nevertheless, the above does not add up to stormy weather. The airline pilots should not have had a problem with it. They fly IFR enough to maintain a high instrument proficiency. The military helicopters pilots and National Guard pilots probably had a somewhat lower IFR proficiency and would describe the weather as being worse. The end result is we are comparing subjective data with quantative data.

I thought there was ref to turbulence in H's book? I agree there is nothing (obvious) about turbulence in the transcripts. I just find it wierd that there is not ample testimony-documentation about the wv condx, from many perspectives, right in the FBi files. Apparently Tom & Carol found nothing. I mean with the whole hero angle from thepress you would think somebody would pause to ask and publish: "he bailed into hellish weather" or "he bailed into turbulence" or "he bailed into a pleasant but foggy evening at the beach" ? There is more attention given to his shoes than the weather! Tom does have something along the lines you mention. It is essentially information that Larry Carr posted on this thread. And it is consistent with the other weather data. H. does have statements about Cooper jumping into a bad storm in his book. But there is nothing in the weather data to support those statements. They may have been plugged into the various books long after the fact to juice things up for one reason or another.

I thought it was you who brought Mensa up? I thought it was funny whoever did. I just threw Mensa in, seemed appropriate at the time? I think it was Guru312 who mentioned Mensa in a post to Jerry Thomas. There was something about rubbing his Mensa card to help understand what Jerry wrote. Basically, I would like to know how that works, if it does. My understanding of the situation is that with a Mensa membership card and a ten dollar bill, you can usually be assured of getting a hamburger at McDonalds. I hadn't heard of a secondary use for them.

His report has always puzzled me. 377 It should. There is no data to even suggest a wind of 80 knots from the southeast at 14,000 feet that night. All available data indicates that the wind from the ground to 10,000 feet was from a south to southwesterly direction. At 10,000 feet it was from the southwest at no more than 30 knots. While I respect your Mensa card, I want to see a report? Why would H include this in his book? Just to titilate the world? So, you are saying No Turbulence period. Is this what you are saying? Im not arguing. I have no opinion! Just wanna know! Lacking any report, can you share youre reasoning process - ? Georger, First, what is the source for your statement about a Mensa card? Did the source mention a more esoteric organization than Mensa? Just asking. Ralph H. apparently met Captain Bohan just a few months before H.'s retirement and before the money was found at Tina Bar. H. discusses Bohan on pages 111 thru 115 of his book. Following are some statements Bohan made: 1. Bohan stated that he had been the next flight into Portland behind Flight 305, that he had been listening to all of 305's communications with Minneapolis and Portland, that his jet was four minutes behind and 4000 feet above Flight 305. COMMENTS: The phrase "next flight into Portland behind 305" is not correct since 305 did not go into Portland. In all probability, Bohan's aircraft did not have enough radio transreceivers to monitor all of 305's communications as well as maintain his own communications with air traffic control. The "four minutes behind" phrase presumably means that Bohan took off from Seattle four minutes after 305. If so, Bohan's aircraft would have overtaken 305 in short order and probably been on the ground in Portland before 305 passed through the area. 2. Bohan stated "that was one of the worst storm fronts I've encountered in 24 years of flying. I had 80 knots of wind, from 166 degrees, right on my nose". COMMENTS: In reality, Bohan was probably not even on V-23 between Seattle and Portland that evening. He was probably on V-23E with the inbound radial to the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC being 165 degrees. 3. Bohan stated that he landed to the east in Portland, on runway 10, with a strong crosswind that was "near my fudge factor". COMMENTS: Commercial airliners are routinely certificated for crosswinds of about 25 or 30 Knots. The ground winds that evening at the Portland airport were only about 10 MPH from the south-southwest. Bohan should not have had a problem of any kind with the crosswind at Portland that evening. At the age of 16, I could and did make full-stall (three point) landings in Piper Cubs with a 10 MPH crosswind. If the crosswind were significantly greater than that, I could and did make one-wheel landings without a problem. The sea level pressure in Seattle that evening was above normal and it increased toward the south. Increasing pressure is an indication of improving weather and a stable air mass. In the ground radio transcripts in Seattle is a discussion of the weather between Seattle and Reno. The flight was informed that there was no significant weather but that there was a haze layer at 10,000 a number of miles south of Portland which could (and in fact did) produce some light airframe icing. In addition, a haze layer is another indication of a stable air mass. To summarize, there was no storm front between Seattle and Portland, there was no storm in the Portland area, and the highest winds at 10,000 feet were less than 30 knots and from the southwest. There is no support of any kind for a wind of 80 knots at 14,000 feet that evening. The ground winds at Portland were of the order of 10 MPH from the south to southwest throughout the evening. There were clouds and light rain showers in the Portland area but they did not pose a problem to the hijacked airliner or Bohan's aircraft either. To make a long story short, the whole weather encountered between Seattle and Reno was nothing of any particular significance. It was just another night at the office. The above weather statements are supported by FAA weather data, FBI data presented on this thread, weatherunderground.com historical data, and other sources. To answer another of your questions, I am not saying that there was no turbulence. However, I do not remember anything in the transcripts that even mentioned inflight turbulence.

377, I believe that Georger was saying that the high velocity exhaust gas from the engine(s) initially induces a flow toward the exhaust gas centerline, and it does. That would, in effect, suck the parachute towards the exhaust gas. As the exhaust gas moves further from the engine, it expands, mixes with the turbulent flow created by the airframe, and then starts a 5 or 10 minute process of returning to it original (before the airplane passed by) state. Sometimes, it takes even longer to get back to normal conditions. Tangling with turbine engine exhausts and the turbulence behind big aircraft are definitely no-nos.

The POOF affliction! Are you sure the FBI wasn't involved? Orange, I would suspect Jo Weber first.

Georger, My reply seems to have disappeared into the ether. My Internet connection went down for a few minutes before I finished it and everything has now vanished. I'll try it again later.

His report has always puzzled me. 377 It should. There is no data to even suggest a wind of 80 knots from the southeast at 14,000 feet that night. All available data indicates that the wind from the ground to 10,000 feet was from a south to southwesterly direction. At 10,000 feet it was from the southwest at no more than 30 knots.

Sailshaw, What is the source of your statement that "the FBI tells us" that the cloud layer extended from 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet? I presume that you are using "us" in the Royal sense since the FBI has apparently not made that statement to anyone else. In reality, there is nothing in the extant data that gives the altitude of the cloud tops. If in fact the FBI did make such a statement to you, then you should know that such a cloud layer would completely invalidate your original claim that Cooper could see the lights of Portland well enough to determine a jump point so that he could land adjacent to the Portland airport. Again, I refer you to the posts of 377, Quade, and others concerning the usefullness of your "wind on his body" theory.

Sailshaw, Do YOU REALLY understand what YOU write? I have asked you to read the posts of 377, Quade, and others, in an attempt to help you understand your own claims. Since by your own statements you are a WHUFFO, what is your basis for calling non-WHUFFO'S WHUFFOS and in a pejorative sense at that. So WHUFFO are you calling other people WHUFFOS you WHUFFO? Are you related to Jo Weber? She also likes to call other people WHUFFOS while being one herself. Whatever happened to Guru312? Did he fall off the edge of the planet? Just asking.

Jo, You can not prove he lied to you without evaluating his credentials! So WHUFFO you making that demand in the first place!

Jo, Why don't you set an example by posting your qualifications, your IQ (including your Mensa membership number if applicable), certificates, academic degrees, your annual salary (since you have never had a service rank), all test scores on any and every subject, and any proveable credentials. Your entire second paragraph above is laughable. Did you acquire this information by osmosis? Finally, what is there in your background that you feel qualifies you to evaluate the credentials of Jerry or anyone else on any subject?

Robert99: I notice you have no hours posted as a skydiver. So, by definition "YOU ARE A WOOFO". How do you justify being critical of anyone saying what they think if based upon logical information? I suggest that you have no freefall time other than your failed attempt in the vertical wind tunnel and your absolute statement that DB had no references when he jumped is just plane BS. He had the direction of wind acting upon his body and actually he had another reference for a little while. He had about one minute to keep the 727 airplane in site and visible before he hit the cloud layer at 5,000 ft. So, he had two frames of reference, especially if he backed down the stairs as Bob Blevin proposed and remained facing the same direction as the airplane. Possibly you banged you head too hard on the walls of the vertical wind tunnel you tried? Bob Sailshaw Sailshaw, Seriously, you need to start reading the other posts on this thread before posting your nonsense. It would also be nice if you made some attempts to gain some knowledge of aerodynamics, dynamics, gravity, and other physical science subjects. For instance in your post above, you state that "He [Cooper] had about one minute to keep the 727 airplane in site and visible before he hit the cloud layer at 5,000 ft.". For your information, the airliner was at 10,000 feet when Cooper jumped. Using your numbers, that means he was in a free fall and only doing 60 MPH vertically from 10,000 feet to 5000 feet. In reality, he was probably falling at a speed of at least 180+ MPH and would have covered that distance in no more than 20 seconds. Your claim that he could keep the airliner in sight during that free fall doesn't merit comment. You obviously have not read any of the dozens of posts in the past week related to your claims. For starters, I suggest that you read Quade's post #30426 and 377's post #30411. Quade, 377, and others have discussed this subject in dozens of other posts. My parachuting experience is summarized in post #30397, which you obviously haven't read either. Incidentally, skydiving experience is measured by number of "jumps", not "hours" as you state above. So to repeat, you need to start reading this thread. Seriously.

So are you withdrawing your Cooper book(s) and admitting that your entire premise for that book(s) was dreamed up in an effort to make a couple of bucks? AND to draw interest away from the REAL story. YES! Fabricated by the suspect and the Cooper CREW. First hand information from the boss's mouth! Absolutely guaranteed to be the truth if you can get anyone to actually tell the truth. Bob, You are beginning to make sense. But how does Marla fit into all this?

So are you withdrawing your Cooper book(s) and admitting that your entire premise for that book(s) was dreamed up in an effort to make a couple of bucks?

How many skyjackings occurred after Cooper jumped? How fast where those planes going? Others jumped from similar or the same kind of plane after Cooper did and survived...and YOU do NOT know if Cooper had training or NOT. There are too many missing yrs in the life of Duane Weber (1962 to 1966) - DO you know where he was all of that time? Do you know who he worked for during that time frame? When you can answer those question without fault and with employment records, then & only then you can remake your lousy statement and until then tread softly! Jo, In all of your years on this thread, not one single individual has bought into your story about Duane Weber being Cooper. Duane Weber was a con man, a small time crook, one of your husbands, and nothing more. You cannot blame the FBI, CIA, or Girl Scouts for your Duane Weber problems. Period!

A knot equals what in miles? l.5 miles. The plane was traveling just above stall speed. I am just a dumb broad, but others can jump from planes going faster than the 727, then Cooper succeeded in jumping Nov. 24, 1971 and he landed and he lived. Have you read ANYTHING about the other successful skyjackings? I have to agree with statements by professional jumpers on this thread - you sound like a wuffo and I am not saying that as NICELY as the others did. Jo, Here we go again! As Quade has already pointed out to you, a Knot (which means one Nautical Mile Per Hour) equals 1.15 MPH (which means one Statute Mile Per Hour). The airliner was NOT traveling just above stall speed but quite a bit faster. The simple fact that 170 KIAS was the best range speed indicates by itself that the airliner was not on the "backside of the power curve" as it would have been if it was just above stall speed. Your claim that since others have jumped from planes going faster than the 727 means that Cooper did so successfully and lived to marry you is nonsense. Most of the people who have jumped from aircraft going faster than this 727 were military crewman who survived some rigorous training by Amazon and her cohorts. For your information, military paratroopers usually jump from C-130s and C-141s at about 140 knots, give or take about 10 knots. Some of their aircraft also have "spoilers" that swing out just in front of the side exit doors to reduce the stress on the paratroopers as they hit the free stream airflow. I have never read of a successfull hijacking in the USA. Cooper wasn't necessairly successful, he is just missing. To return your compliment, I have to agree with the people on this thread who know what they are talking about when they say that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that Duane Weber was Cooper. AND I am saying that MORE NICELY than some of them have.

Sailshaw and everyone else who has not made a free fall, somewhere on DZ.com there is probably a list of vertical wind tunnels. Find one in your area and give them a call. Tell them that you want to see how easy it is to control your body position during a free fall. The tunnel people can probably arrange a few minutes in their tunnel for around $150 per person. You could make it a family affair. The experience is well worth it in my judgment. I have spent a few minutes in the tunnel at the Casa Grande, AZ facility. In the preparation for going into the tunnel, we were shown a video of four kids (I believe both boys and girls) in their tunnel. These kids were about 10 years old and had their own team jump suits, etc.. They did controlled formation turns and other things and were always under control. But looks can be deceiving. In my particular case, I found that I could no long go into an arc position without getting leg cramps. When I straightened out the legs to stop the cramping, I would go head first into the wall. Basically, I spent my tunnel time just banging my head against the wall.

You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night. You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None. "Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh! Quade, Since the above quotes are from Georger, I assume that you are addressing him with your comments. But as for me personally, as can be found in more detail on another web site devoted to the Cooper matter, I have made a limited number of parachute jumps, I have done free falls, I have never jumped at night, and I have come down on my reserve. All of these jumps were using 5-TU round chutes and were done in 1963 and 1964 on the east coast.

QuoteRobert99 you are hung up on EXTERNAL REFERENCES claming Cooper had NONE. Well Robert99, I see airplane, a rear door open, air movements, wind, stars in the sky, earth below, Im about to jump out of this thing, etc etc etc etc ... how does that add up to NO EXTERNAL REFERENCES?/reply] I am a very devout believer in "external references" in aviation related activities. UNLESS you have gyroscopic instruments inside your head, you need some external references to determine such things as your position along all body axes, which in the case of an aircraft determines if you are climbing or descending, rolling to the left or right, or turning to the left or right. When Cooper jumped, the airliner was no longer a factor. As pointed out elsewhere, Cooper could not see the ground and had no references to help him stabilize in a free fall position.

Velly interestink, Dr. 99. I had no idea you were a practicing pediatric neurologist, too. Dr. Fu-Man Spock sayeth: Basic Response #2: sensation of falling; Baby cries and extends legs, arms, and fingers, arches back, then retracts arms and legs; Duration: Until fall is broken by impact or upward resistence. The falling response requires no external references in order to activate. Without the "all-over support" of the ambiotic fluid in the womb, the baby frequently experiences a "falling" sensation and startles awake. This reflex is autonomic, controled mainly by the The medulla oblongata portion of the old brain which controls autonomic functions such as breathing, digestion, heart rate, and basic suvival functions. An array of sensors in the inner ear and along the lower back feed the medulla in this basic function. During gestation, the mother's movements and hormone levels supply the fetus' developing neurology the basic neurologcal parameters needed to establish the critical support-falling baseline. Professor Georger, Thank you for your remarks. Of course, I was not addressing autonomic functions in the post and my referring to "meaningful inputs to the hands and feet" was strictly limited to those inputs that would assist Cooper in maintaining or regaining control using the geostrophic forces available to him. The point is, falling is its own sensation (triggers autonomic responses), even in adults - requires no external references - gravity is enough - unless trained to ignore and/or control, over-ride those natural responses. The autonomic functions are so thorough they will even induce a heart attack (fibrillation) in adults falling from great heights, so often it isnt the fallthat kills you but the lose of blood pressure on the way down, and you arrive at the bottom unconscious unless you took counter measures. I am "sure" Amazon is an expert on this subject! Cooper would have instinctively taken counter measures when he jumped, measures which probably help in stabilisation? But as 377 points out, pulling at the ramp (off the ramp) almost assures stabilisation right from the start and no freefalling. Aside from training, the basic issue is how smart and well thought out Cooper's actions were - he knew he would FALL, unless he was IQ

Velly interestink, Dr. 99. I had no idea you were a practicing pediatric neurologist, too. Dr. Fu-Man Spock sayeth: Basic Response #2: sensation of falling; Baby cries and extends legs, arms, and fingers, arches back, then retracts arms and legs; Duration: Until fall is broken by impact or upward resistence. The falling response requires no external references in order to activate. Without the "all-over support" of the ambiotic fluid in the womb, the baby frequently experiences a "falling" sensation and startles awake. This reflex is autonomic, controled mainly by the The medulla oblongata portion of the old brain which controls autonomic functions such as breathing, digestion, heart rate, and basic suvival functions. An array of sensors in the inner ear and along the lower back feed the medulla in this basic function. During gestation, the mother's movements and hormone levels supply the fetus' developing neurology the basic neurologcal parameters needed to establish the critical support-falling baseline. Professor Georger, Thank you for your remarks. Of course, I was not addressing autonomic functions in the post and my referring to "meaningful inputs to the hands and feet" was strictly limited to those inputs that would assist Cooper in maintaining or regaining control using the geostrophic forces available to him.

I don't see any jump numbers or time in our sport associated with your user name. I'm leaning toward writing that you don't know what you are talking about. But...I'm willing to read your explanation for such a totally nonsensical statement. Could you provide a source or some sort of explanation for the above statement? I'm beginning to wonder if you have a clue what activity DropZone.com is all about. Guru312, You are on. First, we need to discuss the weather and other conditions under which Cooper jumped, fell, or was thrown from the airliner. It was a dark and stormy night. The airliner was flying at 10,000 feet above sea level. There was an overcast, which is defined as 90 per cent sky cover, at 5,000 feet above sea level. In addition, there was a broken cloud layer, which is defined as 60 to 90 percent sky cover, at 3500 feet above sea level. In addition, there were scattered clouds below 3500 feet. Light rain showers were also in the Portland area at that time. From 10,000 feet, Cooper could not see the ground or any horizontal reference points and he would not have any directional reference points unless he could spot the North Star, or some such thing, as he was tumbling. The human brain must process the clues concerning the above reference points in order to provide inputs to Cooper's hands, feet, and anything else he had to use in stabilizing himself. No clues to the brain means no meaningful inputs to the hands and feet. Therefore, there was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper, even if he was an experienced jumper, could have stabilized himself until he got below the 3500 foot cloud layer and probably not even then. If Cooper jumped in the general area originally claimed, he would not have had very much, if any, ground clearance or ground references after getting below 3500 feet. I look forward to your comments on how the above is "totally nonsensical". And don't give me any stories like "a skydiver doesn't even need a parachute after six beers". Please stick to facts. You state, "I'm beginning to wonder if you have a clue what activity DropZone.com is all about". I had assumed that DZ.com was about skydiving and this thread was about the Cooper hijacking. Do you agree?

Jerry~ The thing is...even IF Cooper had encountered a spin, pulling the ripcord stops it. It's the basic rule beginner skydivers are taught as they progress into longer & longer freefalls. If you can NOT stop the spin in free-fall on your own ~PULL! 'Odds are'... if Cooper was freefalling and spinning, if/when he pulled the canopy would open clean. Also, you can attach quite a bit of stuff in some crazy ways and still fall reasonably stable~ (I'm the incredibly handsome 'larger' specimen on the far right) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=8902; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=8903; That's a lotta weight & drag...80 some pounds total. I've done it a BUNCH...and I'm alive...(i think) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=8904; So don't put too much into 'he probably didn't survive' the exit, if he got out he could easily get open...if he got open, he probably survived the landing. In what kind of 'condition' is debatable, but I've jumped the same kind of canopy he did @ almost 100lbs heavier and walked away every time. FWIW... FWIW, a year or two back one of the cable TV channels had a multi-hour program on students going through the military's HALO parachute program at Yuma, AZ (if I remember correctly). All the students were experienced paratroopers. After a number of HALO jumps, the students put on belly cargo packs and then did another HALO jump on a beautiful, not a cloud in the sky, day. Most of the students wobbled about a bit at first but within a few seconds were reasonably under control. Unfortunately, one student had some serious problems. A camerman and an instructor were along side the student so the incident was well documented. In trying to help the student, the instructor nearly got kicked in the head several times and finally had to give up and move away from the student. The student never did get things under control but did eventually open his chute and landed okay. The student was booted out of the course after that jump. But there is no way Cooper could have stabilized in a free fall after leaving the aircraft. He had considerably less than a minute to pull the ripcord or crater. If he had opened the chute, what are the chances of him landing in a tree? If he had landed in a tree the chances are pretty good that he wouldn't want to stay around to get the canopy out of the tree. He simply didn't have the time to spare. If he didn't open the chute, his impact area on the ground would be rather small. Are vultures flying around the Portland/Vancouver area in rainy and cold weather? I doubt it. And the vultures are only reliable indicators if the searchers are in the correct general area to begin with.

I have just taken a look at a Canadian map and Thompson is listed as being 469 miles by road north of Winnipeg, Manitoba. At least two-thirds of that road runs through very sparesly settled areas. If MacDonald flew direct, he would be over Lake Winnipeg for at least an hour with the whole trip taking at least three hours, not even considering the winds, clouds, etc. To make a long story short, it is easy to understand why he has been missing for 40 years.