Robert99

The "reasonable standards" for beauty seem to evaporate about 2:00 AM. Anything goes after that time.

Right. That post was not one of those in which he gave the wind speeds and directions for different altitudes. That one only has the reference to 30MPH. Post 1286 is one of those in which he gave winds at different altitudes. This is probably the one you remember. No. It doesn't have the cloud layers. Hominid, At this point it doesn't look like I can positively identify the specific post. Sorry.

Thanks Robert. Carr's data included 7000' and he said that it applied around Orchards and, in another post, around the 8:15 time. The "30 MPH" was buried in this post and elicited zero discussion, so I would consider it unconfirmed but possible. Hominid, That is not the specific post that I remember Carr making for the Orchard's weather. The one I remember was rather short and had the cloud layers plus wind speed and direction for several altitudes.

Read the thread! Hominid & Georger, Carr did post some weather information for the Orchards area early on this present thread. I don't remember the specific details right off but they are consistent with the numbers and wind direction I used. And if I remember correctly, Carr did not have any winds or weather above 5000 feet. And I don't specifically remember him saying anything about 30 MPH winds aloft from anywhere. My "26 knot" value resulted from doing the flight path from the take-off in Seattle to a point 10 miles north of the Red Bluff, California VORTAC on V-23. At that point, one Oakland controller told another Oakland controller (during a hand-off) that the airliner was "ten northwest to be exact" of the Red Bluff VORTAC and on V-23. And that was the last point I used. On Sluggo's web page, you will find the details of how I did the calculations. But basically, I did the climb-out to 10,000 feet separately and concluded that the airliner was quite a bit further south when it reached 10,000 feet at 7:54PM than indicated by the 1954 point on the FBI chart. Oddly, both the FBI chart and I have the airliner at the Mayfield Intersection at almost the same instant. For the rest of the flight from the time that the airliner reached 10,000 feet to the 10 mile point north of the Red Bluff VORTAC, I considered two or three possible routes in the Portland area. But basicall only two are of any consequence. First I assumed that the airliner stayed on the centerline of V-23 for that entire distance. I also considered a short cut passing on the west side of Portland. However, this short cut did not have a noticeable influence on the calculations due to the distance covered by the airliner between the two points mentioned above and the time involved. The true airspeed was calculated from information in the radio transcripts and I then worked backwards to determine what is actually an "average winds aloft speed of 26 knots at 10,000 feet". These calculations were done on a standard pilot's flight calculator (a Jeppesen's CR-3 in this case). Both the climb out calculations, which involved a lot of assumptions, and the cruise calculations agreed with the actual airliner's performance better than I would have expected. Note that the "26 knots" is equivalent to 29.9 MPH. It was not planned that way. Again, I don't remember Carr mentioning 30 MPH anywhere.

QuoteAfter losing the argument with the co-pilot about taking off with the stairs unlocked, Cooper needed to keep the stewardess with him to help him lower the stairs. If the stairs had been unlocked at take off, the stewardess could have verbally instructed him on the rest of the lowering process and then gone forward sooner. Quote As the stewardress was going to the cockpit, Cooper instructed her to draw the first class curtain across the aisle. As she did that she got her last glimpse of Cooper and said that he appeared to be tieing a tether from the money bag (which was apparently on the floor) to his waist. She was in the cockpit by 7:42 as noted in the TTY transcripts. So the last time she saw Cooper he had the parachute on and was in the process of rigging the money bag to his waist.

The same 7:42 message that says the stewardress in now in the cockpit also states that the aft stair light is on (presumably meaning on the flight engineer's panel).

Would the flight path to Reno be drastically different than one to Mexico? When DB said Reno was good, did he have reason to believe it would be very different? Don't forget that he identified landmarks to the stewardess. If he didn't feel they were headed in the right direction he could have changed his demands. He may well have recognized landmarks that he didn't point out. The point is he wanted to go over a specific area, or Canada, Japan, New York or somewhere else would have been just as good. Another thought. He was requiring them to fly at 10,000 ft. There are some high mountains to the east and may have limited the choice of flight paths. Keep in mind that Cooper did NOT specify a flight path. However, the flight path to Reno was basically the same as the flight path to Mexico until the airliner turned toward Reno in northern California (after getting south of a mountain range that presented problems to it at that altitude). But based on other considerations, it appears that Cooper intended to jump just south of Seattle. He wanted to take off with the rear stairs unlocked, which means that he would not have had those problems lowering the stairs. And there is no reason to believe that he wanted to be at 10,000 feet when he jumped. So if Cooper had a choice, he would probably have jumped within a few minutes of leaving Seattle. How do you know that would have put him in the area he wanted? If he wanted to jump really early after taking off would he have waited to send the stewardess forward? After losing the argument with the co-pilot about taking off with the stairs unlocked, Cooper needed to keep the stewardess with him to help him lower the stairs. If the stairs had been unlocked at take off, the stewardess could have verbally instructed him on the rest of the lowering process and then gone forward sooner.

Would the flight path to Reno be drastically different than one to Mexico? When DB said Reno was good, did he have reason to believe it would be very different? Don't forget that he identified landmarks to the stewardess. If he didn't feel they were headed in the right direction he could have changed his demands. He may well have recognized landmarks that he didn't point out. The point is he wanted to go over a specific area, or Canada, Japan, New York or somewhere else would have been just as good. Another thought. He was requiring them to fly at 10,000 ft. There are some high mountains to the east and may have limited the choice of flight paths. Keep in mind that Cooper did NOT specify a flight path. However, the flight path to Reno was basically the same as the flight path to Mexico until the airliner turned toward Reno in northern California (after getting south of a mountain range that presented problems to it at that altitude). But based on other considerations, it appears that Cooper intended to jump just south of Seattle. He wanted to take off with the rear stairs unlocked, which means that he would not have had those problems lowering the stairs. And there is no reason to believe that he wanted to be at 10,000 feet when he jumped. So if Cooper had a choice, he would probably have jumped within a few minutes of leaving Seattle.

"...camping under the flight vector." Did Deathray tell you how to do this? Please illuminate the rest of us as to how this can be done.

Blevins, Who determined that Christiansen, Weber, Gossett, etc., are suspects? Simply calling them suspects in a book or online blog doesn't make it a fact.

Blevins, Where is YOUR research to support your claims? YOU haven't done a single thing to support the theories you advance above. First, yes...I meant Milli Vanilli. I was never too hip on hip hop or whatever. Most of the music on my iPod is pre-1992. Okay, pretty much ALL of it. No research? Surely you jest. I spent eighteen months doing just that, with the help of a private detective out of NYC. I don't think I have to explain that one. Maybe the Milli Vanilli versus Vanilla Ice thing. Sure, I can explain that. Never could keep those two straight. Blevins, Unless you determined where the drop zone was by playing Milli Vanilli and/or Vanilla Ice cds backward and finding a secret message, you don't have the slightest clue where the drop zone was or how it was predicted.

Blevins, Where is YOUR research to support your claims? YOU haven't done a single thing to support the theories you advance above.

Deathray, Are you channeling Marla's toothbrush again?

I am pretty good at recognizing truth as well, and I see absolutely none of it in your "story". ParrotheadVol, You have excellent vision. Deathray writes: "When I asked how the money got on to the bank of the Columbia River, DB stated 'Vancouver Lake had been dredged years later and the mud had been piled on the Bank of the Columbia River nearby." If Deathray had bothered to do even a Wiki search he would have discovered that the present day "mud island" in Vancouver Lake was created by the dredged mud. Also, as has been noted a number of times on this thread and elsewhere, the NW Lower River Road is built on top of a levee. The purpose of that levee is to channel the water from Vancouver Lake into the Lake River which converges with the Columbia River several miles downstream from Tina Bar. The chances of the money getting from Vancouver Lake to Tina Bar by natural means are zero. Or to put it another way, the chances of the money being in Vancouver Lake in the first place are zero.

AH HA Amazon, Have you found the information you were looking for? I think I have gotten just about everything possible from the sources you gave me. HUH? Amazon, Check your PMs.

AH HA Amazon, Have you found the information you were looking for? I think I have gotten just about everything possible from the sources you gave me.

You are correct. They have been discussed to death before. What is low about an airplane flying at 10,000 feet? And 194 Knots True Airspeed is not necessairly slow. Undoubtedly there were other airliners arriving and departing Portland International that were lower and slower than the hijacked airplane. Also, as has been discussed for the past couple of years at least, there was a broken cloud layer at 3500 feet (which constituted the ceiling) and a complete overcast at 5000 feet. This puts Janet and Marla in the same category. I don't think the cloud layers would have stopped the sound, and what does that have to do with Marla? The cloud layers don't change an FBI polygraph. She only knows what she heard. She wasn't a participant in the plot. If you know about when flights depart and arrive then you may well be able to find the plane you're looking for. Surely they would have checked the flight schedules. The 9/11 guys did didn't they? Maybe he had a concealed flashlight to shine on the way down. That might have helped after he got below the clouds. The hijacked airliner was not on a scheduled flight between Seattle and Reno. And since it was not visible from the ground (and vice-versa) no one would know what it was unless they were tuned into the Seattle ATC channels. Based on 377's post, Marla apparently knew where to do a "library research" before talking to the FBI. And if Marla had somehow convinced herself that what she was saying was absolutely true, she would not have had any trouble with the lie detector test. When Cooper jumped, he probably didn't know his location to within a 20 or 30 mile radius. And a flash light wouldn't do him any good until he was about 100 feet from the ground.

Jerry, I think you mean "briefed" (before the fact) rather than "debriefed" (after the fact).

You are correct. They have been discussed to death before. What is low about an airplane flying at 10,000 feet? And 194 Knots True Airspeed is not necessairly slow. Undoubtedly there were other airliners arriving and departing Portland International that were lower and slower than the hijacked airplane. Also, as has been discussed for the past couple of years at least, there was a broken cloud layer at 3500 feet (which constituted the ceiling) and a complete overcast at 5000 feet. This puts Janet and Marla in the same category.

Don't forget that the 22 people in the trunk could probably use some fresh air also.

Jerry, I agree with you that in all probability Cooper died in the jump. I also agree with you that the money wasn't "planted" at Tina Bar but got there by some natural process. I disagree with you on the Washougal watershed theory since there are no facts supporting this and the starting point for this theory seems to be that the money had to come a long way down the river. Cooper's clothes, his parachute selection, and (with one exception) everything else is then irrevelant. The only thing that matters is the ground track of the aircraft and the point that Cooper seperated from the aircraft. Cooper hit the ground (not water) not more than a quarter of a mile laterally or about a half mile further down track from that jump point. You should give some thought to how that narrows down the possible landing point for Cooper.

I think the chances of a thief tossing serious money out is nearly zero. There has to be another explanation as to how the money got to Tena Bar. It's just an opinion, but I've represented a lot of criminals and not one of them would have let go of $5800 in hard cash to send a message. They'd find another way. 377 Why couldn't the money have just "dropped from the sky" near the Fazio's property and then "migrated" over to Tina Bar in the normal course of water flowing, wind blowing, etc.?

Hominid, To save a couple of pages of storage, I will start with a fresh piece of paper. As discussed elsewhere previously, the airliner had trouble climbing to 10,000 feet in the configuration that Cooper specified. And after reaching 10,000 feet, the airliner had difficulty in turning as well as, surprise, in descending. And of course, the airspeed during the initial climb was less than 170 KIAS. The optimum speed for best range was given as 170 KIAS by the MSP performance group. This speed was obviously important if the aircraft couldn't get to Reno at 160 KIAS. In fact, the crew was in the Portland area before being informed that they could get to Reno at 170 KIAS. So it seems logical to me that the crew would be sticking as close as possible to 170 KIAS even if no one anywhere mentioned a "target speed". Does that seem logical to you? Cutting and pasting is not one of my computer skills. Maybe I should learn how to do it.

Hominid, Read the entry from the FBI notes that is just below the one you quoted in your first attachment. Also read the ATC radio log for the same time frame. The crew did slow the aircraft down about 10 minutes after take-off and leveled off at 7000 feet for a couple of minutes in order to help Cooper get the stairs down. In the quotation just below the one you quoted in your first attachment, the MSP Flight Operations group noted that they were only at 160 knots (this is Indicated Air Speed) at that point and would not be able to make it to Reno at that speed. At 7:53 PM PST the airliner crew reported to ATC that they were leveling off at 10,000 feet and that their "airspeed (again Indicated Air Speed) in the vicinity of one seventy one eighty". The Indicated Air Speed is the number read on the airspeed indicator. It is called True Indicated Air Speed after being corrected for instrument and pressure system errors. No such corrections are available for the aircraft but based on NASA studies of airliners, they would be quite small at this altitude and speed. So for all practical purposes, the True Indicated Airspeed is the same as the Indicated Airspeed in this instance. After leveling off at 10,000 feet, all information in the ATC radio logs indicated that 170 KIAS was their target speed or "bug" speed. The True Airspeed (the actual speed of the aircraft with respect to the airmass it is flying in) can be determined from the True Indicated Airspeed, the altitude of the aircraft, the temperature outside the aircraft, and the local sea level pressure (which is what the altimeter is set to). The altimeter setting was constantly being passed to the airliner by ATC. The flight crew could determine the outside air temperature from the reading on their Mach meter. And they could determine the True Indicated Airspeed by simply reading the Air Speed Indicator. Doing the above gives the following numbers: True Indicated Airspeed - 170 Knots (which was their goal after reaching 10,000 feet). True Airspeed - 194 Knots. The wind at 10,000 feet was about 26 Knots from the southwest (225 degrees true). This is everything needed to calculate the ground speed (which is the speed made good over the ground). And the achieved ground speed changes each time the airliner changes headings. And any 17 year old Private Pilot with an ASEL rating is supposed to be capable of doing these calculations. R99

How about "microfilmed"?