Robert99

Jerry, Himmelsbach writes on page 111 of his book that "Bohan was four minutes behind and 4,000 feet above Flight 305." Since Flight 305 was at 10,000 feet, Bohan would be at 14,000 feet. Regardless of where Bohan was, the wind at 10,000 feet was from the southwest at between 25 and 30 knots. If Flight 305 had experienced an 80 knot wind, generally from the south, it could not have made it to Reno.

WGK146, You did not start this. This argument has been going on for years. And you are not causing any trouble. In reality, the weather for the flight to Reno was passed to the airliner flight crew while they were on the ground in Seattle. It is included in the radio transcripts. They were told that the only thing of any particular concern was a layer of haze at their altitude somewhere south of Portland. This haze was a potential icing problem and they did ice up a bit when they encountered it. Basically, in the Seattle to Portland leg, the airliner was above an overcast when they got to 10,000 feeet. And there were three broken layers of clouds below that overcast. So the possibility of Cooper even seeing any lights or ground objects is zero for all practical purposes.

Jerry, Your last sentence first. My research has been "reviewed" by going to the sources. You should take a look at the data on weatherground.com and see if you can find anything supporting your ideas about the weather that night. The statement by Captain Bohan that he had an 80 knot headwind (at 14,000 feet) from 166 degrees (he would be referring to the magnetic direction) would be from almost the straight south in true direction (aligned to the north/south sectional lines). That also means that he was undoubtdly on V-23 East and not V-23 on his flight from Seattle to Portland. That is, he was not on the same airway as the hijacked airliner. Captain Bohan also said that he had about a 30 knot crosswind component during his landing at Portland. The weather data indicates that the highest wind speed at the Portland International Airport the evening of the hijacking was only about 10 knots. Bohan would not have been four minutes behind the hijacked airliner for long since he was going about 100 knots faster than the NWA airliner. As far as Bohan listening to the hijacked airliner's radio transmissions, including those on ARINC frequencies, he would need about three or four transcievers to handle that plus his own radio communications. There is NOTHING in the weather records to indicate that there was a storm front between Portland and Seattle the evening of the hi-jacking. The surface winds were approximately 10 knots and generally from the south from Seattle, through Portland and the rest of Oregon, as well as northern California that evening. The surface winds at Reno were also about 10 knots but from a different direction. The surface pressure was increasing south of Seattle. This statement is also supported by the altimeter settings given to the airliner by ATC. This means that any storm front had already cleared the Seattle area and the route to Reno before the hijacked airliner even took off from Seattle. Cloudy and rainy weather, such as that experienced in the Portland area the evening of the hijacking doesn't mean that it was a stormy evening even though you may have to fly IFR. In fact, the weather appeared to be rather stable and a good time to get in some real weather IFR flying. Again, it was a dark, wet, and cloudy night. But not a stormy one.

Jo, I hate to be the one to have to tell you this. But your hair looks very, very black in that photo. And Duane's looks blonde and white. Just keep that in mind the next time you try to play the Dumb Blonde Syndrome card.

Jerry, Cooper had already bought a ticket and spent quite a few minutes in the gate waiting area before the flight from Minneapolis even landed. So he could not have been on that flight prior to its landing in Portland.

Jerry, Who am I suppose to believe, you or the weather people? Are you calling the weather people liars?

The weather was definitely not "stormy" that night as the airliner passed through the Portland area heading for Reno. The winds aloft at 10,000 feet were from the southwest at between 25 and 30 knots and were not a big factor in the flight. There is absolutely nothing in the records to support a wind from straight south at 80 knots at 14,000 feet as has reportedly been claimed by a Captain Bohan.

Yikes Robert. What were you flying? I have jumped twice from 24,000 breathing O2 in the plane but jumping without supplemental O2. I've jumped many times from 18,000 with no O2 in the plane or during descent. I did one hop and pop from 18,000 with SpO2 telemetry. My readings were in the low 90s at exit and increased during the canpoy ride down. The climb to exit altitude was VERY quick in a souped up King Air 200. That helped a lot. Those 24,000 ft jumps were FREEZING, even in the middle of the summer. My goggles iced over right away and didn't clear until about 12,000 ft. Remember we have a 130++ mph wind chill factor in freefall up there. BRRRR. The 727 crew probably could have put Cooper into a stupor (hey that rhymes) by donning masks and climbing to 24,000. But then what would you do with him? I know what Rataczak would have suggested: a swim in the Pacific. 377 377, Would you believe that all of my high altitude flights as a pilot have been in gliders (or sailplanes as they are also known)? The flights to 18,000 feet, with and without oxygen, were in the Big Bear area of southern California and at a location some distance south of Phoenix, Arizona, respectively. The California flight was in thermal lift and the Arizona flight was in wave lift. There wasn't anything particularly unusual about these flights or any other flights that I made between 10,000 and 18,000 feet. But the flight to 36,500 feet is a different story. It was made in the vicinity of the Air Force Academy near Colorado Springs, Colorado. The flight was in wave lift which had which had to be approached from downwind and through the "rotor" which was generated by the wave conditions. This was a VERY interesting ride both for the glider and the aircraft that was towing it. A rotor is some of the roughest turbulence found in nature and both the glider and tow plane had extreme difficulty in staying even generally right side up. The climb to the highest altitude took about two hours and the total flight was almost exactly three hours from takeoff to landing. Both the glider and I were thoroughly cold soaked. At the highest point, I could not deploy the dive brakes or even move the elevator trim tab. So I had to just put the nose down and make some high speed turns for about the first 10,000 feet of the descent. At about 25,000 feet the dive brakes warmed up enough so that I could deploy them and the rest of the descent was at a relatively low speed and high descent rate. I had carried two sealed and temperature compensated barographs on the flight and when they were reduced they resulted in my being given credit for 36,500 feet although the highest altitude I saw on the altimeter was 35,500 feet. So it was a lot colder than standard at altitude that day. While the barographs were being reduced, I went back to the motel and took a hot shower to get the ice out of my various systems.

The passenger drop down O2 systems I have seen are not tank fed but have individual O2 generator cans feeding each mask. The cans contain chemical ingredients that mix when the mask feed tube is sharply pulled and begin a VERY hot exothermic oxygen producing reaction. They have caused more than one fire. The Value Jet DC 9 crash in FLA was caused by a bunch of these carried in the cargo bay. They ignited and caused a fire that resulted in loss of the acft and all pasengers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592 The "quick donn" pilot masks are fed by tanks. Skydivers assembling gear for high alt jumps buy those quick donn masks dirt cheap from the places that salvage airliners located in the AZ and Mojave CA deserts. You can remove the quick mount head bird cage and fit straps to the Scott brand quick donn masks pretty easily. The same type of mask with OE straps can cost 30x the price of a quick donn type. The pilot masks have very high quality internal microphones which are great for doing radio jumps. With those masks on and the sound of labored breathing, the appropriate use of pauses, clipped speech and "ahhhhs", I can sound just like Farflung. I want to make an iPhone app that will do that on cell calls. If you are gonna talk why not sound all hunky and fighter piloty? 377 377, I'll defer to you on the O2 generator cans, especially since I have never seen one of them. A couple of years ago, an Australian 747 had a cargo compartment explosion that blew off a sizeable chunk of the fuselage skin. If I remember correctly, that explosion was credited to a large oxygen tank that was part of the passenger "drop down" system. So maybe some airliners still use the tanks versus the generator cans. I personally have only used a constant flow oxygen system to 18 thousand feet and had to stop there due to airspace restrictions. Also, once a very long time ago, I went to 18 thousand feet without any oxygen equipment. But before doing that, I had determined that I was going to head back down at a specific time even if I didn't get to 18 thousand. Basically, I went up fast and came down even faster. I have used a pressure demand oxygen system to 36,500 feet and would have gone on up to 40,000 feet if it had not been about 70 degrees below zero in the cockpit, not counting wind chill factor (all cockpit ventilators had to be kept wide open to keep the canopy from icing over). That was the coldest I have ever been.

Don't forget the Trilateral Comission. Was Duane a member of it?

True, but Boyle's law applies. Less pressure, less O2 molecules per unit volume. That's why I need supplemental O2 on high alt jumps and the plane, if piston engined, needs turbocharging or supercharging to have enough power to climb at those alts. O2 in properly maintained tanks is actually pretty safe. Smoking around one isnt very risky, but it's a better practice not to. You said "oxygen rich" and I challenged it. I hate to be a nit picker but it's a rare day when I can dispute Georger on a science issue and win. I couldnt resist the temptation. 377 The composition of "air" is constant (for all practical purposes) in the atmosphere where airliners and most manned aircraft fly. It is the partial pressure of oxygen that is important to humans. Most humans can tolerate elevations of 8 to 10 thousand feet without any problems (unless they have underlying health concerns). So the problem in aircraft cabin pressuration is to keep the partial pressure of oxygen at the 8 or 10 thousand foot level or lower. This is simply solved by keeping the cabin elevation below those levels. In the case of unpressurized cabins, such as Farflung has probably experienced, the only way to keep the partial pressure of oxygen at the appropriate level is to increase the percentage of oxygen. A pressure demand oxygen mask can maintain the proper partial pressure of oxygen up to an altitude of about 40 thousand feet. Above that, the mask's regulator has settings for 41, 43, and 45 thousand feet (if I remember correctly). However, the partial pressure of oxygen cannot be maintained at the appropriate level at those altitudes and the wearer is in a state of "limbo", as it was explained to me. Current FAA regulations require that, depending on the airliner altitude, one or both pilots must have their "quick donning" oxygen masks on their head, or in actual use, depending on the altitude. The flight crew has its own oxygen system. The airline passengers "drop down" masks are a constant flow system from pressurized tanks and which are only good for something like 10 to 15 minutes.

The matchless investigative skills of Bruce Smith and Galen Cook are now on display on CNN. An article was posted less than an hour ago in Cnn's religion blogs page [http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/] by Thom Patterson. You can go to that page and then work your way to the specific article. You can also judge for yourself what these people are doing to Tina. Robert99

Not entirely a good thing according to my friend who worked on World AIrways and United 727 maintenance. Cabin smoke was a useful marker for pressure leaks. Light brown stains gave the workers a big head start on finding and patching them. He also told me an amusing story that United had calculated what areas of their planes were closely visible to boarding passengers and had "appearance zone maps" for the maintenance workers. Dents, scratches, chipped paint was repaired quickly in those "appearance zone" areas, but not in others. 377 A long time ago in another life, an individual I happened to be acquainted with made a tour of several airlines to discuss what they looked for in new aircraft before buying them. It turned out that their number one consideration was that the aircraft had to look good (i.e., "appearance") to their customers. Such things as performance were not even a primary consideration. It was all in the eye of the beholder. So your friend from United was undoubtedly speaking the truth.

Surely you have learnt by now that Gray's book is hardly the most trustworthy of references??? I have to wonder about the whole issue of matchbooks on an airplane, smoking, ashtrays, matchbooks in ashtrays, etc back in the 70s? Oxy rich environment and all that? Evidently smoking was allowed. No smoking during takeoffs and landings - I do remember that. Up until at least the mid-1960s, a small packet of four cigarettes, plus matches, were routinely included with ever dinner served on most airlines. Then somewhere around 1965, the Surgeon General started requiring warning labels on cigarette packages and the airlines started phasing out the complimentary cigarettes but smoking was still permitted. Sky Chef probably continued to provide complimentary match books to the airlines as long as smoking was permitted on their planes. But most passengers probably had never breathed decent air on an airliner until smoking was completely banned. Cleaning the nicotene out of the air pressurization system was a long standing problem for the airlines.

Or did they ckeck on recent previous passengers seated in that area to see if they lost a tie? I know they clean up between flights - but unless they were a lot more fastidious in their cleaning in 1971 than now that's not saying much.

The screen locked as the ‘Amazing Farflungini’ yelled for "Silence". This was as he made his amazing and insightful prediction. Locking a screen is an added feature of high speed internet and the powers it gives us over dial-up users. Well worth the $10.00 a month difference in price. Jo, Take Vicki's advice and check into getting better Internet service. You might start by checking with your present provider (AOL). If that doesn't work, try checking your local phone book, and you might even take a look at your Sunday (today's) newspaper for special discounts on high speed Internet service. High speed Internet service is provided by some phone companies through your land line phone, by cable TV providers through the same cable as you receive the TV reception, through satellite TV companies, and by Wi-Fi companies that don't require any physical connection to your house. There is no excuse for your continued complaints about your dial-up service. Just do it! In fact, AOL would probably be happy to get another dial-up customer out of their system and into the modern age.

The PDX tower and approach and departure controllers would not have been involved in the flight from Seattle to Reno. The airliner would only have talked to Seattle ATC sector controllers as it passed through the Portland area. The airliner was also in contact with the performance group at the NWA headquarters in Minneapolis through the ARINC radio system.

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it. Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject. 377 I forgot to mention earlier that recent exchanges with Snowman indicate that he supports a dredging theory. But he and "I agree to disagree" on that point.

Perhaps Jerry Thomas can elaborate on this, but my understanding is that the bundles are basically what Ingram found when he was digging the fire pit. The additional searching and digging by the FBI found additional bill "fragments" with some of them being in the water and on top of the sand and others reportedly being buried up to two or three feet under the sand. It is these fragments at different depths that leads me to believe that the money deposition was a repeatable event that took place over a period of time.

Jerry, First let's discuss the speed of the Columbia River flow from Portland to the Pacific. It is almost exactly 100 statute miles from the Portland area to the Pacific. The water level along that distance decreases by approximately one foot per 10 miles of distance. For comparison, the Mississippi River water level decreases by approximately one foot per mile along its entire distance. For further comparison, in the state where I live, it is not at all uncommon to have streams and (usually dry) rivers that descend 15 or more feet per mile. During high water periods, these streams and rivers can and do move boulders weighing a ton or more. They have taken down Interstate Highway bridges in less than five minutes. In short, they can and do rearrange the landscape. Where did this 15-25 MPH number come from? Surely you don't intend to say that the Columbia River travels at that speed between Portland and the Pacific. If that were the case, all those tugboats and barges heading downstream through the Bonneville Dam lock would end up in the Pacific with no chance of ever getting back upstream of the Bonneville Dam. Do you know how many rubber bands were on each packet of money? Was it two or more? Any number of scenarios can be postulated about how the money actually got to Tina Bar. But there is no actual "proof" that any of those scenarios are correct. About the only thing that can be said is that the money was deposited at Tina Bar by natural means, at least this seems to be the general consensus of opinion now. Additionally, it can be said with some degree of confidence that the money had not been underwater during the entire eight years it was missing. Also, that it had not been exposed to a great amount of violence. But the details of all of the above is a matter of opinion. You have yours and I have mine. Neither opinion can be proven correct at this point.

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it. Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject. 377 377 and Farflung, Feel free to work up a protocol for Cooper "science". It is sadly missing from this whole matter. I would like to suggest a good place to start. Ask the FBI for their "proof" that Cooper jumped near Ariel or that the airliner even passed near Ariel. You might also ask the FBI why they removed everything, repeat everything, from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that would help confirm the flight path of the airliner in the area of the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersectgion until it was south of Portland. It may be cheeky of me to even hint at the possibility that the radio transcripts do not support the "official" FBI position. And gross sacrilege for me to suggest that the FBI "maps" are completely erroneous as to both times and positions. This matter has been discussed both on this thread and at greater lengths elsewhere. You might include in your protocol a statement to the effect that the day to expect Cooper to walk into someone's office and throw the money bag on their desk is long past. Perhaps we could try some constructive and productive activities for once. Sitting on one's fat ass and doing nothing but pontificating is a total waste except to one's ego. I yield my soapbox. You can have a go at it.

Jerry, In my humble opinion, it is just not realistic for the Corps of Engineers, or anyone else, to expect that the money could have travelled 18+ miles in the Washougal and Columbia Rivers and then arrive at a very localized area on Tina Bar, with most of the bills still bundled with rubber bands and fragments also in a localized field, and no evidence whatsoever of the money bag. Mother Nature doesn't work that way! P.S. I'll leave the channel dredging, dam building, and such marco scale events to the Corps of Engineers. But once we get down to the micro scale events, I'm going to weigh in. P.P.S. But you and I have discussed this before.

Jerry, All of these discussions reduces to the point that the money got to Tina Bar by some natural process. You and I probably disagree on that process, but in my personal opinion it could not have come very far and was probably never far (just a few feet at most) from the east bank of the Columbia. So in my personal opinion, Cooper had to land on solid ground and probably somewhere between the NW Lower River Road and the Columbia River in an east/west direction. In a north/south direction, the money location would represent the northern most point and somewhere in the area of the flushing channel would represent the absolute southern most point. There is a possibility that he could have landed on the eastern part of Caterpillar Island. This leaves a very narrow strip of land for Cooper's landing point. And, of course, I agree with you and quite a few other people that Cooper cratered. I'm sure that a good walking inspection of that land area could narrow things down quite a bit more. Elevation wise, Cooper probably impacted in a sandy area with vegetation that had substantial roots and that was mainly only flooded during such events as the spring runoff and major storms. The vegetation could keep him in place and the flooding could expose his remains and then rebury him from time to time. As I have pointed out before, the fact that a "field" of debris from the bills, and at different levels in the sand, means that the money deposition was a repeatable event. That also means that Cooper's remains, and everything he had with him when he impacted, remained in essentially the same location during the period when the money was being deposited at Tina Bar. For the above reasons, I feel that there is still a reasonable chance that evidence of Cooper, and his impact point, can still be located.

Another thing ruling out Vancouver Lake as the source of the money is the fact that the NW Lower River Road (which forms the east boundary of the Fazio property) is built on a levee. Consequently, any thing that made it into Vancouver Lake in the early 1970s would have to exit into the Columbia several miles downstream of Tina Bar. A "flushing channel" was constructed at the southern end (upstream from Tina Bar) of Vancouver Lake somewhere around 1980. This channel has gates to allow water to enter Vancouver Lake at the upstream end but the water then has to re-enter the river several miles downstream of Tina Bar. It appears that this flushing channel can only be used during relatively high water levels in the Columbia. Other times it appears to be completly dry. Also keep in mind that the river water level is normally about 5 to 10 feet above sea level at Tina Bar even including tide effects which are about 2 feet daily. The highest point on the Fazio property is probably no more than 20 to 25 feet above sea level.