Robert99

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it. Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject. 377 377 and Farflung, Feel free to work up a protocol for Cooper "science". It is sadly missing from this whole matter. I would like to suggest a good place to start. Ask the FBI for their "proof" that Cooper jumped near Ariel or that the airliner even passed near Ariel. You might also ask the FBI why they removed everything, repeat everything, from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that would help confirm the flight path of the airliner in the area of the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersectgion until it was south of Portland. It may be cheeky of me to even hint at the possibility that the radio transcripts do not support the "official" FBI position. And gross sacrilege for me to suggest that the FBI "maps" are completely erroneous as to both times and positions. This matter has been discussed both on this thread and at greater lengths elsewhere. You might include in your protocol a statement to the effect that the day to expect Cooper to walk into someone's office and throw the money bag on their desk is long past. Perhaps we could try some constructive and productive activities for once. Sitting on one's fat ass and doing nothing but pontificating is a total waste except to one's ego. I yield my soapbox. You can have a go at it.

Jerry, In my humble opinion, it is just not realistic for the Corps of Engineers, or anyone else, to expect that the money could have travelled 18+ miles in the Washougal and Columbia Rivers and then arrive at a very localized area on Tina Bar, with most of the bills still bundled with rubber bands and fragments also in a localized field, and no evidence whatsoever of the money bag. Mother Nature doesn't work that way! P.S. I'll leave the channel dredging, dam building, and such marco scale events to the Corps of Engineers. But once we get down to the micro scale events, I'm going to weigh in. P.P.S. But you and I have discussed this before.

Jerry, All of these discussions reduces to the point that the money got to Tina Bar by some natural process. You and I probably disagree on that process, but in my personal opinion it could not have come very far and was probably never far (just a few feet at most) from the east bank of the Columbia. So in my personal opinion, Cooper had to land on solid ground and probably somewhere between the NW Lower River Road and the Columbia River in an east/west direction. In a north/south direction, the money location would represent the northern most point and somewhere in the area of the flushing channel would represent the absolute southern most point. There is a possibility that he could have landed on the eastern part of Caterpillar Island. This leaves a very narrow strip of land for Cooper's landing point. And, of course, I agree with you and quite a few other people that Cooper cratered. I'm sure that a good walking inspection of that land area could narrow things down quite a bit more. Elevation wise, Cooper probably impacted in a sandy area with vegetation that had substantial roots and that was mainly only flooded during such events as the spring runoff and major storms. The vegetation could keep him in place and the flooding could expose his remains and then rebury him from time to time. As I have pointed out before, the fact that a "field" of debris from the bills, and at different levels in the sand, means that the money deposition was a repeatable event. That also means that Cooper's remains, and everything he had with him when he impacted, remained in essentially the same location during the period when the money was being deposited at Tina Bar. For the above reasons, I feel that there is still a reasonable chance that evidence of Cooper, and his impact point, can still be located.

Another thing ruling out Vancouver Lake as the source of the money is the fact that the NW Lower River Road (which forms the east boundary of the Fazio property) is built on a levee. Consequently, any thing that made it into Vancouver Lake in the early 1970s would have to exit into the Columbia several miles downstream of Tina Bar. A "flushing channel" was constructed at the southern end (upstream from Tina Bar) of Vancouver Lake somewhere around 1980. This channel has gates to allow water to enter Vancouver Lake at the upstream end but the water then has to re-enter the river several miles downstream of Tina Bar. It appears that this flushing channel can only be used during relatively high water levels in the Columbia. Other times it appears to be completly dry. Also keep in mind that the river water level is normally about 5 to 10 feet above sea level at Tina Bar even including tide effects which are about 2 feet daily. The highest point on the Fazio property is probably no more than 20 to 25 feet above sea level.

Sailshaw, Can you add to this? Otherwise, it looks like the flight crew has some explaining to do about their previous remarks.

N223FE first flew on 08-10-1974 (meaning that it just turned 37 years old), served with several airlines, was delivered to Federal Express on 07-01-1987 and is still active apparently on FE's routes in South America.

Is the picture in the upper right hand corner of your latest "Swith Lights and Knobs" for a four engine or eight engine 727? I must have forgotten some of the 727 versions.

She has been digging there during summers since 1972. She hasn't found anything yet. Maybe a metal detector could help her find a more favorable area for digging. You can never tell what kind of "clams" she might find.

Farflung, Congratulations on your still excellent eyesight.

Pek771, Excellent observations. Perhaps the money never made it into the Columbia in the first place, except when the Columbia reached flood stage. Maybe old DBC got covered by some sand, say in the winter and spring of 71/72, and then only reappeared periodically. Who knows, he might still be there today buried under sand with the roots of some bushes holding him and the equipment in place. "There" is defined as being very close to where the money was found. Would the lady in your attached picture be interested in doing some digging near Tina Bar?

Jo, You should have paid more attention to what, other than Duane, has been discussed on this thread for the past couple of years at least. Most of the issues you mention have already been covered to one degree or another.

Farflung is correct. It basically comes down to your "faith system".

Sailshaw, Thanks for the information. You are suggesting that the pressure hull door was closed during the takeoff from Seattle. Pek771 was also asking if the pressure hull door had a warning light on the Flight Engineer's panel to indicate when it is open. Do you have an answer for him?

If Cooper had trouble opening these stairs after receiving instructions from Tina and reading the placard (which didn't blow away until after the stairs were open), then Cooper's mechanical hands-on experience with a 727 may have been ZERO prior to the hijack flight. Presumably, he could have gotten the other information from "beer talk" with a knowledgeable individual. Maybe we have over-estimated Cooper's skills and background.

Farflung, Thanks.

Pek771, My guess is that there would be such a light for the pressure hull door. But I don't have any information on it.

377, Does one of your 727 manuals give the location of the controls for the aft stairs?

PEK771, The aft stairs were down, or at least unlocked, for almost the entire distance from Seattle to Reno. Those stairs did drag the runway or taxi strip, but were only slightly damaged, during the landing at Reno. The status of the pressure hull door during the flight from Seattle to Reno is not clearly documented. But in view of the fact that Cooper wanted the stairs to be lowered slightly before the takeoff from Seattle, it is very likely that he also wanted the pressure hull door also open. Cooper would not have any reason to close the pressure hull door prior to jumping. And after jumping, it is unlikely that the door would close itself. The wind situation in the rear of the passenger area was definitely not as bad as Gray's book claims. So for all practical purposes, the pressure hull door was probably open for about the same amount of time as the stairs were unlocked. One question, does anyone know the physical location of the controls for the aft stairs? Are they outside the pressure hull? Also, the pressure bump is the only one mentioned in connection with the flight, so it is the logical point to consider to be the jump location.

Really? Tom Kaye says otherwise. Did you see his quote from Gray's book, page 255? You should be taking this up with him. Here it is again: I sent this quote to Tom Kaye this morning and asked him to confirm or deny on it. I'm not his favorite person, so I asked him to maybe do a DZ post on it. That little bit from the book says a lot, and Kaye goes out on a limb there. Or (I just love quoting from famous films) as Robert Duvall said in True Grit: Well, that's not really accurate of course. I'm sure Kaye isn't fat and has TWO eyes. Blevins, Are you claiming that the money had to float down the river (presumably for 10 or more miles) or that the only other choice was to plant it with it with human hands? Surely, with all of your creative writing experience, you could come up with a third (and maybe fourth) possibility. The fact that some of the money was still bundled means that it didn't move very far and had not been exposed to any particular amount of violence during that move.

Blevins writes: The ransom money didn't float down from anywhere, it was probably planted by human hands. R99 replies: Blevins, A better and more believable scientific case can be made for the tooth fairey than that the money "was probably planted by human hands".

Don't forget what I posted about jumping the DC 9 out of the ventral door. Each exiting jumper created a very noticeable pressure bump. You could hear it and feel it even in the front of the plane. It was a "thunk" sound. Some have postulated that it was a reflected pressure wave from the jumper hitting the slipstream. I am not an aero engineer so i dont have a tight explanation, but I guarantee you I could have accurately counted every jumper who exited before me even if I had been blindfolded. 377 377, Thanks for the information. If I remember correctly, the aft stairs from the DC-9 had been completely removed from the aircraft for your jump. Right off, I don't have an idea as to exactly how the exiting jumper could have caused a pressure bump such as you describe. But I still feel that the pressure bump in the hijacked 727 was caused by the aft stairs events described by the flight crew as well as the sled drops in the FBI tests. 377, Let me reply to this message again since you have a more detailed description of your DC-9 jump here. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "reflected pressure wave". But here is my suggestion of the aerodynamic oddity that you describe above. And please note that I have spent at least 10 minutes researching the above matter. In my opinion, this effect is something akin to the making and breaking of the Coanda effect at the rear of the DC-9 fuselage. Except in this instance the Coanda effect is first broken and then re-established. As the air passes around the fuselage of the DC-9, starting at the nose, it first has to move outward laterally to get around the increasing diameter of the fuselage. The force necessary to push the air aside comes from the engines, and their energy generation comes from the fuel. Then as the air gets to the rear of the fuselage, the air has to move inward laterally due to the decreasing diameter of the fuselage (nature abhors a vacuum!). This inward movement is, or at least is analogous to, the Coanda effect. It is induced by the shape of the rear fuselage. The end result of the above is that, in addition to the normal fuselage boundary layer, there is an area of relatively "dead" air at the aft end of the fuselage, and then we have the free stream airflow rejoining just aft (or downstream) of that. Think of this dead air as being something like you find behind a blunt body such as an automobile. So here is my suggestion as to what you were hearing and feeling on that DC-9. As a jumper went through the bottom of the aft fuselage (with the aft stairs no longer there), within a few feet he/she would hit the free stream air and break the Coanda effect. In a few more feet, he/she would be clear of the flow field affecting the aircraft and the Coanda effect would then re-establish the original flow field. The "thunk" would be the Coanda effect re-establishing itself and resulting in the airflow hitting the rear fuselage or tail cone in a rather violent manner before settling down. And it so happened that you were able to hear that initial impact as the airflow was trying to re-establish itself. The pressure bump would probably be caused by the initial breakup of the Coanda effect as the jumper moved through it. So if my guesses are correct, in real time the pressure bump would occur first and then the "thunk". If you were in the rear of the aircraft, you might hear the "thunk" before feeling the bump. [NOTE: Actually, I got that reversed, you might feel the bump before hearing the "thunk".] If you were more forward in the fuselage, you might feel and hear them at the same time or even in reverse order. It depends on how fast the pressure is increased throughout the fuselage and the speed of sound of the "thunk". Does any of the above make sense to you?

Don't forget what I posted about jumping the DC 9 out of the ventral door. Each exiting jumper created a very noticeable pressure bump. You could hear it and feel it even in the front of the plane. It was a "thunk" sound. Some have postulated that it was a reflected pressure wave from the jumper hitting the slipstream. I am not an aero engineer so i dont have a tight explanation, but I guarantee you I could have accurately counted every jumper who exited before me even if I had been blindfolded. 377 377, Thanks for the information. If I remember correctly, the aft stairs from the DC-9 had been completely removed from the aircraft for your jump. Right off, I don't have an idea as to exactly how the exiting jumper could have caused a pressure bump such as you describe. But I still feel that the pressure bump in the hijacked 727 was caused by the aft stairs events described by the flight crew as well as the sled drops in the FBI tests.

Jo writes: I am the only person who has ever put the money in that river in 1979. Jo, You have NEVER put the money in the river. In your own previous posts on this thread, you have stated that you did NOT know what was in the paper sack (or sacks) that Duane threw into the river. You are apparently trying to make a federal case out of Duane just throwing trash into the Columbia.

For the record, I also believe that the money was moved by water to where it was found. But I do not believe that it was moved any great distance. Certainly not 10 or more miles. Also, I am not a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon either.