Robert99

Jo, If there is no prefix in front of what you claim is Duane's serial number, then you don't have his Army serial number! Period! The number you list could be part of Duane's serial number but it is NOT his (complete) Army serial number! Where did the number come from? What is the form number that it is on? What is the date of that form? What is the title of that form? How about backing up your claims with some facts? Robert Nicholson

Orange1, For your information, Habitat For Humanity in Arizona is now helping people here who lost their homes during our recent wildfires. Robert Nicholson

QuoteNote - letters where used for RATE and NOT part of the Serial number: Robert's reply: Jo, Go to Wikipedia and search for "Service Number (United States Armed Forces)". You will find that since the WWI time period, all US Armed Forces have used service numbers that included prefixes and/or suffixes. In the Army, RA stood for Regular Army, US for Army of the United States, NG for National Guard, etc., etc.. Jo writes: Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source and you know this. Wikipedia is contributed to by the man on the street - it is NOT an Encyclopedia nor and reference guide for the military. Take what they say about Weber - it is incorrect, but since I am not the source I cannot change it even with black and white documentations...therefore inaccuracies regarding Weber remain on the site while others are able to make changes periodically. I do NOT know who created the story about Weber, but it is NOT accurate. ------------------------- Jo, Your reply above is a flagrant mis-representation of the statement of mine that is quoted just above that! I did NOT say to go to Wikipedia and search for Duane Weber! I DID say to go to Wikipedia and search for service numbers (just read what you are replying to)! If Duane Weber served in the United States Army at any time from the date of his birth in 1924 until the all volunteer Army was established in the 1970s, then his service number (serial number) had a prefix in front of it! Your deliberate ignoring of valid information simply because it doesn't show what you want it to show is beyond belief! And playing the dumb blonde card won't work this time either! Robert Nicholson

Jo, This post is in response to your post number 24856. First, a general statement. Your responses are mostly pure bunk. I am only going to reply to a few of them below. Jo writes: QuoteRpbert99 Your post always seem professional but you get a lof of your information incorrect and state things I know are NOT correct. Since you are obviously well educated I wonder why you question some things that are evident such as: Robert99 stated: "As you have previously indicated in posts on this thread, the number "35608905" is probably Duane's Army serial number during World War II. That number may have a one or two letter prefix. Perhaps there is someone on this thread that is familiar with the Army serial number system from WW2." Jo Replies: If you were actually in the know you would know there were NO letters in the yrs Duane Weber had his Navy and Army serial number althought you used appropriate wording and asked assistance from others. What you were questioning was if I could actually read the government papers and I had already assured you there were NO other letters. Robert's reply: Jo, Go to Wikipedia and search for "Service Number (United States Armed Forces)". You will find that since the WWI time period, all US Armed Forces have used service numbers that included prefixes and/or suffixes. In the Army, RA stood for Regular Army, US for Army of the United States, NG for National Guard, etc., etc.. Jo writes: Robert99, you also made the statement below: "That Maritime Commission that you refer is probably not the Navy but may be something connected with the Merchant Marine which was a civilian organization in World War 2. However, some Merchant Marines were designated as veterans a few years ago." How very wrong you were Maritime Commission was on Army Inductions. You questioned my ability to understand what I was reading and used it to manipulate the information. It didn't work as there are many older WW11 veterans right here in this thread. Robert's reply: Jo, I am sure the US Army would appreciate further enlightment from you as to what the Maritime Commission (whatever that was) had to do with inductions during WW2. Perhaps the "many older WW11 veterans right here in this thread" could help you with that. Jo writes: Well, Robert the documents I have do NOT lie and the FBI has had access to them, but as usual they just do their own thing. Rookie Agents are given assignments and the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. They never cared enough to actually look at the documents and they were presented by me and by others. Robert's reply: Jo, So documents don't lie? Recently, an individual I know did a federal records search for his own name. It came back with him being linked with a woman that he had never heard of. So some fat assed bureaucrat screwed up his records either intentionally or unintentionally. Jo writes: You even write and relate the same way the FBI agents did - in particial thoughts with no research to back up what you say. This is a mind game for you and others - it is NOT for me. I have had to do the FBI's job for them and that is a terrible thing...15 yrs of my life was taken from me because NO one could see what was right in front of them. Robert's reply: Jo, YOU are the one who hasn't done any meaningful research to back up your allegations! So you have been doing the FBI's job for them? Were you recently considered as a replacement for the present FBI Director? Robert Nicholson

Jo, There are only 10 digits (0, 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). All numbers are formed using only those 10 digits. There is nothing magic about the numbers you mention in the serial numbers or anything else. You are not using the term "random numbers" correctly. And there is nothing in your explanation above that makes any sense code-wise or otherwise. Robert Nicholson

Jo, US servicemen and women were definitely fingerprinted on entering into military service during WW2. I have seen motion pictures of Graves Registration personnel fingerprinting dead soldiers and sailors. There would be no need to fingerprint them after death if they had not been fingerprinted earlier. Robert Nicholson

Jo, It took more than two arms and legs to get into the Army during WW2 and later. Even speeding tickets had to be explained and checked out. If nothing else, this is supported by the Undesirable Discharge from the Army. This particular discharge is an administrative one over which Duane would not have any control unless he wanted to argue about it. Robert Nicholson

Smokin99, Your idea about the paperwork being slow is entirely possible. And if he was in the Navy under another name it would further delay the finger print checks. Also, remember that in that period all finger print and other checks had to be made by office personnel. No such thing then as computer databases. Wouldn't it take a federal charge to put Duane in McNeil? And if he was there within five weeks of being arrested in Chicago, it must have involved a prior conviction of some sort. Robert Nicholson

Jo, That proves that your story is all nonsense! Trust me! Robert Nicholson

Jo writes: I do not know how to explain to you the sequence of numbers but I did it several ways and the odd man out was the 7's. Then I looked at the placement of the 7's and realized they were the turners (I do NOT know what coders call these things so forgive my ignorance). The first 7 is followed by 698. this give you 96 and 89. The second 7 step back for the number 2 and forward for the 35 in reverse. Using the 7's as turners you have Duane's Navy # and his Army number. Remember zeros do not count in the code. 35608905 35 is the first but on the code 35 is reversed on the end. 89 is the being of the second set with the 0 being the turner making it 98. The second 0 is another turner followed by 5 pick up the five and take foruward and that give you 35. You can do this with both serial numbers with the 7 as turners in the 7698QA2753 and 0 as the turners in the army number. QA is simple Question/Answer? He is presenting the Answer to who he is and challenges them with Quest to figure it out. OKAY none of this will make any sense to anyone but me - I will be accused of grabbing for straws, but if I ever saw that group of numbers (or Code) sent to the FBI - I might have been having a Brain Fart day and this may be by far the biggest STINK I ever made. When I saw it I felt like I had seen it and it had been explained to me. Now EVEN I think I am delusional. Jo, You are right. The above line of reasoning doesn't make sense. How did you determine that the number 7 was a "turner"? Why don't zeroes count in this code? Why are zeroes the "turner" in the serial number? Why do zeroes count in this code? What do the numbers you come up with mean? You are going from a number with a known meaning, the serial number, to numbers that don't mean anything. What is the point of this whole exercise? This manipulation of numbers is not a code, not logical, and, in short, is just a bunch of nonsense. The clown who wrote that letter to the LA Times apparently had the foresight to see, that in about 40 years, the personal computer would have been invented and the Internet would come into being. He would realize that there would be a number of people on such threads as this one with too much time on their hands. So to insure that we would waste our time in an appropriate manner, he concocted the cock and bull story that appeared in the letter to the LA Times. The rest is history. Robert Nicholson

Wow....talk about significant dates. I'm surprised no one has commented on this coincidence? Kind of freaky, huh? We were discussing whether or why DB might have picked the day that he did....maybe there was a personal reason?? Just throwing it out there

No prefixes or suffixes. Army address on letter sent to his mother in CA Love Dusty, Duane L. Weber 35608905 Co D - 2st CWS (cannot make out if this is TWS or CWS) Tng Regt. Camp Sibert, AL The letter speaks of the "chemical end" like his Uncle. He is requesting his watch because he needed it in the field and thank his mom for the $1 and for washing his clothes and then states he won't be able to wear them when he gets home. The Certificate I got from the FBI shows March 31, 1943 to July 14, 1943 Undesirable Disharge - Private. The first one I had before the FBI entered the picture had NO DISCHARGE DATE. Discharge date stated "dates unknown". My correspondence with the Veterans affairs - indicated they did NOT have a discharge date. This document is dated Sept 5, 2000. Why did it change after the FBI disputed Duane was never in the ARMY and I had this document in my hands? This mean my dispute with the FBI was in 2001. I kept a log, but too tired to look it up. I did get another one with both dates on it in Sept of 2001. His date of death (3/2895) is on this first form, but I questioned WHY no discharge date until the FBI learned I had knowledge and proof Duane Weber had been in the ARMY. The FBI agent on the phone told me that Duane WAS NEVER in the Navy and the number belonged to a man by the name of WAVY GREENE (I do not know the spelling on that). This is when I informed him I had the documentation and it did NOT belong to WAVY GREENE. This will continue to be a puzzle to me. 5 and 6 where answered in the prior post. Don't think he was there long enough for that - A friend of the family wrote John about seeing Duane at Camp Sibert and talked about his taking the Commander in Chief's vehicle on a joy ride. Seems his dismissal from the Navy was after he had spent some time in the brigg after hitting a 90 day wonder in the head with a bottle of Carstars (havent a clue how to spell that). This incident happened Off base and was about a girl..Duane told me this story and the sister also knew the story regarding the brigg. More information thanyou asked for and/or needed to know, but hope this will help. This is ALL I believe I know about the Army or the Navy. There is the 3rd person story about FT. Benning. This was about his knowing someone who took someone elses place in Ft. Benning. Bear in mind Duane did manage to pose as an Attorney in Treasure Island - so you know I believe this 3rd party story was also Duane. He had told me the guy was found out in a couple of month and I have to assume 'Poofed' like he did so many times. I do know Duane ends up back in CA a few months later. This is when he gets in trouble and ends up in McNeil after being sentenced in San Franciso County to McNeil in early 1945. P.S. Duane knew where very base was - he spoke often of Camp Pendleton and Ft. Lewis. One would get the impression he actually was on those bases. He pointed out McChord and every base we came near in our travels. He was very familiar with WA and OR bases - such as Camp Pendleton - told me about the jumpers there and how they could not go into the restaurants...and going to get food for them. I just don't know why all of Duane's stories about WA and OR and ID indicate he spent lots of time there, but NO one remembers him. I guess he was just a Ghost....no one remembers. Jo, As pointed out in the previous post, if Duane had received a Bad Conduct Discharge from the Navy he would not have been permitted into the Army. Consequently, I have no idea what the Camp Sibert, AL information means. But the good news is that an Undesirable Discharge is actually a step up from a Bad Conduct Discharge. Apparently, an Undesirable Discharge did not create a federal criminal record. So there is a possibility that the FBI is right and Duane was never in the Navy. Do you know when Duane's federal criminal record started? Incidentally, Camp Pendleton is in southern California just south of LA and not in WA or OR. Robert Nicholson

I will answer the questions as best as I can and one at a time 1. Do you know if Duane served in the Army and then the Navy, or was it the Navy and then the Army. (note Duane elderly and deaf brother obtained some of this for me from the family record which now seems to have gone POOF. A. Navy then Army. B. Duane 1st tried to join up by falsifying his age - declaring he was born on June 18 1922. Since this Registration card says Maritime Commission serial # 91-A and guess that would be Navy. (of course he was unable to produce the birth certificate). I do have a copy he tried to alter. Then on Jun 18, 1941 he actually got in on his 17th birthday. His mother gave permission or maybe not - this has always been a real mess. Because the McNeil Island prison has his birthday as June 18, 1920...but he was NOT born until 1924. This form is NOT dated, unless the other thing is a copy of the back. That is dated Nov. 12, 1942. Gives his height as 5'11" and his weight as 167 lbs. All the card says is Selective Service Local Board No. 13 of Summit county, Ohio of Akron, Ohio. 2. Do you know if Duane was drafted or volunteered for service in the Army and/or Navy? A. I guess from this you could say 1st time around he tried to enlist and when he was enlisted with his mothers permission. B. NRS Cleveland 6/18/41 6/19/41 AS NRS Newport 6/28/41 to 827/41 AS US NAS Jacksonville 8/28/41 to 05/30/42 AS Sea2c Discharged May 30 1942 - BAD CONDUCT DISCHARGE. Then it gets really interesting, but later and we learn the BAD boy things. He was a kid trying to be a Man. (he was the baby of the family and born late in life.) Of Course that was NOT an excuse back in those days. Jo, Let me see if I can answer, or at least comment on, some of the above matters. You may need to get bottle of your favorite beverage and find a good chair that you can't fall out of accidentally. That Maritime Commission that you refer is probably not the Navy but may be something connected with the Merchant Marine which was a civilian organization in World War 2. However, some Merchant Marines were designated as veterans a few years ago. Your paragraph 2B has a number of abbreviations. Based on WW2 information on the Internet, "NRS" stands for Naval Recruiting Station (those would be Cleveland, Ohio and Newport, Rhode Island), "AS" stands for Apprentice Seaman, "US NAS" would be US Naval Air Station (Jacksonville, Florida). The "Sea2C" would be Seaman 2nd Class. It is a mystery to me why Duane would have dealings with a NRS in Cleveland and then 11 days later with one in Newport. The "Bad Conduct Discharge" is issued by a Special Court Martial and creates a federal criminal record that nothing will erase. He absolutely would not be in the Army after such a discharge. So if the records you have truly represent the facts, then it is questionable if Duane even served in the Navy in the first place. But if he did and received a Bad Conduct Discharge, he absolutely would have not subsequently been allowed into the Army. I'll continue this with your second posting with the numbers. Robert Nicholson

Oh. I thought some were decoded. The movie certainly gave that impression. Well, no matter what happened the police never figured out who the Zodial killer was to any degree of certainty. What was really bizarre is the investigating detective Dave Toschi who allegedly wrote fake Zodiac communications. What if we had a rogue FBI SA working on Norjack who played with the evidence? I dont think that happened, but the Zodiac case tells you that you cant assume that cops are straight arrow in their investigations. 377 377, Take a look at the proposed solution for the three part message and let me know if you think that is actually a solution. No solution has ever been proposed to my knowledge for the large one part message or for the two very short one word messages. Robert Nicholson

Regardless of what you may think, the Zodiac codes have NOT been broken. In fact, the claimed solution collapses under its own faulty logic. Robert Nicholson

Matthew, Which part of this post is your work? Robert Nicholson

Just try to hang on for another day or two. Robert Nicholson

Jo, The fastest way for you to get that article is to Goggle the "QA" number. You will probably get only one hit and that will be for the LA Times story. According to the article, which was published on Tuesday, December 14, 1971, the letter was received by them on Monday, December 13, 1971, and that it had been mailed in Seattle the previous Friday, December 10, 1971. Your explanation of how you massaged the numbers is very interesting and I will be back in a day or two with my reply to that. But don't get your hopes up. A few additional questions: 1. Do you know if Duane served in the Army and then the Navy, or was it the Navy and then the Army? 2. Do you know if Duane was drafted or volunteered for service in the Army and/or Navy? 3. Do you have any prefixes or suffixes for either the Army or Navy serial numbers? 4. What was the date given by the FBI/VA for Duane's discharge from the Army? Do you know when Duane entered the Army? 5. Do you know the dates of service for Duane in the Navy? 6. Do you know the types of Discharges, or releases from service, that Duane received from the Army and Navy? 7. Do you know if Duane had a Military Occupational Speciality (MOS) in either the Army or Navy? Robert Nicholson

Jo, Would you care to explain your hint? What do you mean "the # 7 is the QA sequencial"? Robert Nicholson Jo, You need to explain what your hint means? Otherwise, your post is meaningless. The "7698QA2753" is probably nonsense. The only place this number can be found on the Internet is in that article that appeared in the LA Times on December 14, 1971. As you have previously indicated in posts on this thread, the number "35608905" is probably Duane's Army serial number during World War II. That number may have a one or two letter prefix. Perhaps there is someone on this thread that is familiar with the Army serial number system from WW2. As you have also previously indicated, the number "283-56-96" is probably Duane's Navy serial number during WW2. Perhaps there is also someone on this thread that is familiar with the Navy serial number system from WW2 and can explain it. Of course, the above assumes that Duane served in both the Army and Navy at some point in the WW2 era. If he did serve in either the Army or Navy, you should be able to get some information from the Veterans Administration on his military service regardless of the type of discharge. As far as your hint, I see no logic involved with the number 7. Again, can you explain what you mean by that hint. Robert Nicholson

Jo, Would you care to explain your hint? What do you mean "the # 7 is the QA sequencial"? Robert Nicholson

I am not sure, but at the time Cooper made his demands, the banks were still open. Seafirst usually closed at 6PM, most branches. It's one of the reasons why a lot of people banked with them, that is, they kept long hours for a bank. I think they stored this fund at their main Seattle branch downtown, or wherever the corporate offices were located in Seattle. Probably main branch. I'm not sure how it worked at the main Seattle, but at a lot of Seafirst banks, the vault thing worked like this: The manager has a key to a door that looked like a jail cell door, i.e. bars, etc. You opened that, and then there was one, sometimes two safes in the room beyond the door. These safes were opened by combination, usually. Or a key, or maybe both, but not generally on a time lock. This is one reason why Seafirst used to get held up so much for so much money. Both Scott Scurlock and the guys who hit Seafirst for 4.4 mil took advantage of this. As I understand it, you are saying that Cooper was probably from the Seattle area and probably had an accomplice. If so, I agree with you on both counts. But are you also suggesting that Cooper was a SeaFirst Bank customer? Robert Nicholson

And how could Cooper possibly guess that this flight would have such low attendance? It was still the day before Thanksgiving. There could have been many other passengers coming into Portland from other destinations, who were on their way to Seattle. He may have just gotten lucky on that one. The idea of Seafirst being closed for Thanksgiving Day is really a non-factor. They would be open on Friday, and most branches were even open Saturdays until 1PM. None of the ransom money would be delivered or obtained by utilizing a branch manager anyway. This could only be authorized by someone at the top of the food chain at Seafirst, in coop with Donald Nyrop. It is almost certain the Seattle police, the FBI, or both, had the important phone numbers handy to contact the right people. They would have this information for any number of reasons. Fires, natural disasters, etc. If NWA was using Seafirst as their corporate bank, then they would have the contact numbers of the important people. I don't think there's much doubt on this one. It wouldn't matter whether the banks were closed or not. Seafirst did not make a habit of closing early before a holiday anyway. They were just closed on the holiday itself. For example, they were open on the Friday after Thanksgiving, and most branches were open until 1PM on Saturday. If it's true that NWA only added the Portland stop three months before the hijacking, this makes it possible the hijacker was familiar with the operation of the airline to a degree. This is not certain, but only a guess. I believe that Cooper was definitely from the Seattle area. There are many hints about it, and most of you reading this are familiar with those. His comments about Tacoma, etc. That's one. But I think one that's been overlooked is a sort of backwards hint: If Cooper were from the Seattle area, WHY didn't he pick a flight going between Seattle and Portland? Two reasons come to mind. If he worked for the airline out of Seattle, he could have been recognized by another employee, especially on an outbound flight out of Seattle. Two, maybe he understood that the money was more readily available to NWA in Seattle because they had corporate offices there, and a large payroll. There was some planning in this, and some of it looks like it came from a guy who knew a lot about NWA but hadn't used a chute in a long time. Another more obvious reason is because he had already planned to jump between Seattle and Portland, i.e. no matter what he was telling the crew about flying to Mexico City or Reno or whatever, he had absolutely no intention of remaining on board long, once he got his money. First, with all due respect to Portland, I doubt if that city could have been considered to be a major hub in 1971. Most people headed to Seattle would probably have taken a direct and non-stop flight from their point of origin if such were available. In the 1970 time frame, the airlines gave huge discounts to travelers, such as grandma and grandpa, but those discounts did not apply on holidays or during the holiday period. So strictly holiday travelers with discounted tickets would have already been in Seattle prior to Thanksgiving eve. The people who boarded in Portland paid the appropriate full fare. The bank in Seattle reportedly did have a large amount of money set aside, serial numbers recorded, and bundled in a random fashion, specifically for ransom or hi-jacking type situations. But where was this money kept? Was it in a vault with a time lock? Or did the janitor keep it in the broom closet? Before Cooper handed the note to Flo, he had seen the other people boarding in Portland as well as getting a look at those who were already on board and going to Seattle. Consequently, he knew that they were not someone that he had seen before. That meant that he could go ahead with the hi-jacking. Also, anyone in Portland who just wanted to get to Seattle for Thanksgiving could have probably driven to any area of Seattle in less than three hours. And they could have done it at their convenience, maybe even on Thanksgiving morning. Robert Nicholson

Well, if this were true, it could mean someone familiar with the day to day operations of the airline may have been involved. Just a guess, of course. In the early 1970s, the airlines put out a publication periodically that listed all the airline flights in the USA, the cities that specific flights served, the times of arrival and/or departure from each specific city, the type of aircraft used on that route, the days the flights operated, etc.. So Cooper would not need to know anything about the day to day operations of a given airline or, for that matter, anything at all about the airline itself. All Cooper would need to do is stop by a library, travel agent, an inter-city airline ticket office, or any other location that had a copy of that publication, and take a brief look at it. He could get all the information he needed in about two minutes of looking. The NWA flight was already airborne and just a few hundred miles from Portland when Cooper asked the ticket agent if it was actually a 727. The ticket agent would have known by that time if some other aircraft had been substituted for a 727. And the agent confirmed that it was a 727. Robert Nicholson

Smokin99, You have asked some good questions. Cooper's actions that day were consistently inconsistent. Cooper definitely wanted a 727 aircraft and confirmed that the inbound airliner was one by asking the ticket agent, "This is a 727 isn't it?". Cooper asked that question after he had already purchased his ticket. To me, this means that Cooper had already checked the airline schedule (the time tables and aircraft equipment were widely published in 1971) and was just confirming with the ticket agent that there had not been a substitution of other aircraft that day. Why would Cooper pick that specific flight? I believe that others on this thread have stated that NWA had only started the Portland stop on some flights from Minneapolis to Seattle about a month earlier. In that same time frame, United also operated Minneapolis to Seattle flights with a stop in Spokane. Presumably, NWA would also have some nonstop flights between Minneapolis and Spokane. Remember that things were heating up with the Alaska Pipeline work in that time frame and NWA and the other airlines in the northwest were typically loaded with people and cargo. Assuming that Cooper was from the Seattle area, it may have been that he thought there would be fewer people on the aircraft from Portland to Seattle, compared to other routes, and that would reduce the possibility of him seeing someone that he knew. It also may be that this was the only 727 going into Seattle at the desired time (but I doubt that). But the weather was definitely not what one would want and Cooper was not dressed for a night in the rain soaked woods. The relatively late hour of 3:00PM when he took over the aircraft seems to have been another factor that was a gamble. Despite all this, Cooper went ahead with the hi-jacking. To me this suggests that Cooper was desperate and, for one reason or another, the hi-jacking had to be done that day. So basically Cooper rolled the dice and lost (at least in my opinion). Robert Nicholson

377, See Tosaw's book pages 32 ff and 69 ff, possibly other pages. The statement about the rigger's card is in the second complete paragraph from the bottom of page 69. Notice the first sentence of that paragraph, just before the sentence about the rigger's card. I definitely thank the first sentence needs some clarification. Also, as a personal favor to me and others, could you get a bill through the US Congress outlawing the publication of books that don't contain indicies? It would save the human race a lot of time and frustration. Robert Nicholson Amazon and 377, I understand that each of you own jumpable NB6 chutes. I also owned an NB6 in early November 1971 (about three weeks before the hi-jacking) that was about 10-15 years old at that time. Today, I can't remember where the packing card was located although I never had any trouble finding it. I also can't remember if the shroud lines were packed horizontally or vertically at the sides of the container. I now own an NB6 container that was manufactured in 1988. This container has a pocket on each side of the upper and bottom flaps that are obviously for use with a packing tool to push the flaps into position during a repack. There are no other pockets on this container that could serve as a packing card pocket. So first, just where was the packing card pocket located on the pre-1971 NB6 chutes? Secondly, were the shroud lines in the pre-1971 chutes stowed vertically at the edges of the container? That is the way they are to be stowed in the 1988 container. Robert Nicholson