Robert99

There may be a problem as far as your sources are concerned - but please state your credentials on this thread to clarify you are an authority to disputed Cooper being able to see lights within the haze. The CO-PILOT's own statement disputes what you are saying Robert 99. Please EXPLAIN your credentials and YOUR sources of weather conditions along the complete flight path...and have YOU spoke to the Co-pilot? Have you sat down with him and a map and had him show you where they were? Have you ever actually sat with the co-pilot or the engineer or the pilot. Probably not because the only one I ever spoke to was the Co-Pilot and he was the one behind the controls. Many things have been taken out of context by the media - just as they are in this thread - so only use exact quotes you know to have come from the crew. What Qualifies you to make these statements as thought they are beyond reproach? Did you create the map or did you use a map created by someone on this thread? Sorry, but I have listened to the NAYSAYERS - when I have been told differenty by others who were on that plane....remember that I have been talking to people for 16 yrs. I did NOT record the conversations, but my damn notes are pretty accurate. If anyones watch was off by 1 minute or 2 minutes that changes a lot of things. There was also the relay and transcribing time - that enters into all of this. I take the Co-pilots own word that they were EAST of the PDX and that he was able to see Portland to his West and infront of him. I take his word that they passed between Portland and Troutdale Industrial and the ground reports also match this. RE-READ the above 2 Paragrapha and you will know how WEST ever entered a conversation that was misinterpreted by the media or another party over-hearing a conversation! The Co-pilot told me yrs ago before his accident that the plane was East of Portand and West of Cames as they crossed the Columbia - He knew were Portland was at that time. Do you guys not even realize the crew need to know if Cooper had left that plane - there are "minutes of communications MISSING" in the FBI records - Crucial minutes. Now you guys can continue to create your myths. Jo, You are having quite an evening. You are even implying that you are now an "expert" on maps while just recently you were claiming you didn't know how to read a map. If you had been paying any attention over the past couple of years, you would have some knowledge of my "credentials". These have been discussed on this thread and are also available elsewhere. I guess you missed those posts. And for the record, just exactly what are you "credentials" and also the "credentials" of Sailshaw? You two need the Janet myth to be accepted as fact and thus have a vested interest in it. Finally, what qualifies you or Sailshaw to make your own claims as though they were "beyond reproach". Robert Nicholson

Thus H in the Ntl Guard helicopter is flying around in the soup, in total dark, search lights off, looking for Cooper on the ground ... any lights, fire, watching vehicles moving, etc etc etc. Now that IS dark. You KNOW that has been disputed - a lot of things were reported by the media and writers strickly for the dramatics - and NOT always actual. You were NOT on that plane and these writers where NOT on that plane nor the investigators, but the CREW was! Jo, You were NOT on that airplane either! If you want to argue the above then get in touch with Himmelsbach. Robert Nicholson

Jo, Ralph Himmelsbach's statement as quoted in Nuttall's book contradicts your claims above. Where or how can your claims about the crew's statements be verified? Basically, at this point it is just your word against Himmelsbach's. Presumably, your remarks about maps refer to the maps provided to Sluggo by the FBI. I believe Sluggo has previously responsed to your claims that he (or someone else) had modified them after receiving them from the FBI. In any event, what is the basis for your claim to know what maps the FBI actually used? How could this thread create extra time? How could this thread create a map? You and Sailshaw are apparently the only two people on this thread that buy into the Janet nonsense. Both of you are pushing a Cooper candidate and both of you need a flight path for the airliner that is east of Portland or at least over the Portland airport. Neither you or Sailshaw apparently have the capability to determine the airliner's flight path based on the available public evidence. You and Sailshaw will have to peddle you goods somewhere else as far as I am concerned. At least I am not going to buy such baloney. Robert Nicholson

Farflung, Wasn't McCoy's airliner being trailed by a couple of F-111s whose crews saw him jump? Why the Cooper aircraft flew on to Reno is a good question. Remember that the stairs were down to one degree or another for about three hours on that flight so there was plenty of time for the skirting to get damaged. Personally, I don't remember ever seeing skirting on the rear stairs of a 727. Maybe it was there and maybe it wasn't. But the skirting in some of those photos doesn't look like it would serve as a "modesty" panel. Robert Nicholson

Thus H in the Ntl Guard helicopter is flying around in the soup, in total dark, search lights off, looking for Cooper on the ground ... any lights, fire, watching vehicles moving, etc etc etc. Now that IS dark. Georger, The helicopter was presumably below the clouds and could probably see ground lights. But it didn't have a chance of spotting Cooper or the airliner either. Robert Nicholson

What if he "perched" for a really long time? I know we have the pressure bump and the confirming sled tests, but let's say somehow he didn't actually exit until long after the pressure bump. Can anyone come up with a credible explanation of how the pressure bump might have been caused by something other than Cooper's exit, like bouncing on the stairs or something like that? Occam is frowning, I know, I know... 377 377, It is reasonably certain that the bump coincided with Cooper's jump from the stairs. The co-pilot flew the airliner in the FBI tests and stated that the separation of the weights that were dropped produced the same type bump. It Cooper had lingered for several minutes on the steps, he would have frozen his posterior off. The wind chill factor on those stairs was about 35+ degrees F below zero. Robert Nicholson

However...if you were a Skydiver, you would understand that there is a huge difference between looking 'out' forward and looking 'down'. If it's scattered or broken it looks a lot different hanging outside looking down than it does from the front office. I mentioned it prior in one of these threads, if it were 'me' or someone like me, I would be out back looking down through an imaginary 'cone' of parachute decent & hiking ability, when I saw a large cluster of lights that falls within that cone...jumper away! Airtwardo, The weather information published in some of the books indicates that there was a complete overcast (total cloud cover) plus several additional broken layers of cloud. This effectively eliminates the possibility of seeing anything on the ground even by looking straight down. Sailshaw is trying to claim that Cooper managed to land a round canopy parachute adjacent to the Portland International Airport and then walked over to the airport's parking lot, picked up his car, and then drove off into the night with the money. Sailshaw, if he understands what he is writing, claims that Cooper could do the above if he could just see the glow of the Portland city lights through the clouds. However, there is a problem with this claim. George Nuttall states in his book, page 95, that Ralph Himmelsbach (quoting the copilot) told Nuttall's research associate, Harry Grady, that the cloud cover below them in the Portland/Vancouver area was so dense that they could not see landmarks or even the glow of city lights. Sailshaw's proposed version of events is nonsense. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, I appreciate your humor. Enjoy you life as a comedian, but see below. Since you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about, you could probably also have a great career in some of our new political parties. You could just arrive in some town in your flying saucer and that alone would guarantee an invitation to appear on all the talk shows. You could then give your version of history and your audience would automatically become true believers. Except maybe one or two who could read. Time for a pop quiz since you have previously claimed to not only be a pilot but an electrical engineer. In keeping with this threads interest, the quiz will be aviation related. And its multiple choice. Question: Which end of an airplane takes off first? Choices: a. Front b. Tail c. Both d. Neither e. All of the above. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, You continue to ignore the simple fact that the flight crew (those three fellows in the cockpit, which is located in the forward part of the aircraft) has been quoted by several authors as stating they could not see the Portland/Vancouver area lights as they pass overhead. The reason was several layers of clouds plus a complete overcast. Consequently, Cooper's only navigational instruments were a wrist watch (assuming he was wearing one) and whatever was going on inside his head. Yet you claim that he was able to land a round canopy parachute adjacent to the Portland Airport's parking lot, retrieve his car, and drive off into whatever. Your theory of navigation is novel. Perhaps you should open Sailshaw's School of Aerial Navigation. In this day and age you might even get rich. Your students could forget about the need for navigational radio aids, compasses, celestial navigation instruments, etc. But Amelia, may she rest in peace, would definitely not serve as a spokeswoman for you school, assuming she was still around and able to do so. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw (and 377 also if he believes your numbers are "right on"), I hope this isn't too technical for you. First, there was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known where he was when he jumped. This has been covered in great detail on this thread and elsewhere. Second, you indicate that in your grand scheme Cooper jumped from the airliner about 8:25 and was on the ground about 8:30 just a short walk from the Portland Airport's parking lot where his car was parked. In reality at about 8:20, the airliner reported its position as being 23 DME miles (or nautical miles) south of the Portland VORTAC (which is now designated the Battleground VORTAC). So by 8:25 (your jump time), the airliner was probably 38 to 40 DME miles south of that VORTAC or about 25 to 27 nautical miles south of the Portland Airport. Can you explain this difference in times and locations? Third, it is very unlikely that 377 or any experienced skydiver would tell you that Cooper would average a free-fall speed of 120 MPH from 10,000 feet to 3000 feet. That speed is only good at sea level, standard atmosphere conditions, and in a stable spread position. How did Cooper maintain a stable spread position when he was in the clouds and did not have any visual references whatsoever? He couldn't. Other questions. What was the wind chill factor at the instance Cooper separated from the airliner's steps? What were the atmospheric conditions in the Portland area at the time of the jump compared to a standard atmosphere? Your attempts to twist facts to point to your selected Cooper candidate border on the laughable. You need to stick to something that you know and you obviously don't know anything about aerodynamics, free-falling bodies, aerial navigation, or other aeronautical disciplines even if you do have a private pilot's license. Again, I hope the above was not to technical for you and written in a style that you can understand. Robert Nicholson

I always liked entropy Georger. You call it anarchy, I call it social thermodynamics. 73, 377 377, Using definitions from my desktop dictionary, entropy is defined as "a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interprted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system." Anarchy is defined as "a state of disorder due to the absence or non-recognition of government or other controlling systems." In the case of thermodynamics, mechanical work can only be done between two different temperatures and the process of doing that work is not 100 percent efficient which results in a steady increase in entropy or a reduction of disorder or randomness. Eventually the whole system would be at the same temperature and no further work would be possible. Entropy could not increase further. Call it 100% entropy if you wish. In the case of anarchy, the desire is to go from some ordered or non-random state to a disordered or chaotic state. Thus it would seem that anarchy is at 100% when there is chaos and no order. From the above, it would seem that entropy and anarchy are headed in opposite directions. On the original subject of intellectual property rights, it should be noted that they are definitely protected in the Los Angeles area. Is the San Francisco area still a part of California? Was it ever? Before Blevins starts infringing on the intellectual property rights of others, he and Adventure Books, or whoever, should review their financial situation to see just how much money they can lose. However, I am not a lawyer and the above is not legal advice. (Is that a disclaimer?) Robert Nicholson

Blevins writes: "I never wanted to get involved in the Cooper case." Blevins, Your modesty is overwhelming. The Cooper case is the best thing that ever happened to you from a writing and possible screen play point of view. You have a terminal case of the "Cooper fever". You have signed off from this thread at least three times but were always right back here the next day. Who's going to play you in the movie? John Wayne has been gone for some time. Arnold? Maybe you could help rehabilitate him. Do you have other candidates for the role? Good luck. And keep a towel nearby to wipe that stuff off your face when Cooper's real identity becomes known. Robert Nicholson

she wants to know if the Viet officer's name is TONY WONG ...

Bruce, Do you want to talk about it? Robert Nicholson

Farflung, I guess that I have to ask the question, whether I believe the answer or not, just to satisfy my morbid curiosity. So how many Bigfoots can hide in a Roswell saucer? Robert Nicholson

Pat71, You are a breath of fresh air to this thread. And you will probably discover all to soon how desperately we need fresh air here. Robert Nicholson

Bruce, There is plenty of information on this thread and elsewhere about the 727 operations in Southeast Asia. I think it was a professor from the University of Texas (?) that has written a paper on the subject. That paper is referred to in a number of earlier posts on this thread and can also be located by Goggle. The paper identifies the aircraft by their registration numbers and uses. Your use of the word "jettison" is a bit misleading and the term "dropped by parachute" would be more precise. Basically, "jettison" just means thrown overboard or discarded. And I don't think the commandos would like that. Robert Nicholson

Was there a Whitey Bugler thread somewhere on the Internet to counteract the FBI's information release of last Monday? Obviously not since it got results in less than 72 hours. Perhaps this suggests a problem with the Cooper case that Carr couldn't overcome. Robert Nicholson

Blevins writes: "The only explanation I can figure is that they were buried there purposely. Maybe. Maybe not. Who the hells knows? One problem is the lack of evidence. There is a lot of nothing with that find, and from that you can assume a couple of possibilities, but that is a tough nut to crack." Mr. Blevins, Is it just me or is the above quote actually offered as something other than a lot of double talk? 1. The money is evidence. Other than the evidence left on the airliner and the stair placard, the money is the only evidence. 2. After you have concluded that the money must have been planted there is the only explanation, you dismiss the money find as meaningless, and then you say you can assume a couple of possibilities. Your quote above probably sets logical thinking back at least 1000 years! Robert Nicholson

QuoteRobertMBlevins in cooperation with Skipp Porteous concluded: “2. The money was found just downriver from the park. This is one of the biggest reasons we, think.” Tena (or Tina or Fazio’s) Bar is UPriver from Paradise Point State Park and has been since the dawn of the Precambrian time frame, which supersedes the hijacking by more than three months. Once again, if you chuck something into the drink at Paradise Point State Park it will arrive in the Pacific Ocean after a brief trip DOWN the Columbia River.[/reply ] It is doubtful that Blevins suggestion that the Tena Bar money was a "plant" will pass the smell test either. Mr. Blevins, Haven't you previously stated that no bank was checking for the bills just three months after the hijacking? If the Tena Bar money was suppose to lead the searchers astray, it failed miserably since it wasn't found until more than eight years after the hijacking. If the money was a "plant" it would have been put where it could have been found in short order. And it would have been put in a location that was unrealistic as far as having a connection with Cooper. Tena Bar is not unrealistic. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, Now you are back to discussing the book and Cooper candidate that you are pushing. Do you know what you will have on your face when you are proven wrong? Robert Nicholson

Georger, The mountains were really lit up Sunday night after a day of 50+ MPH winds up there. However, yesterday and last night the winds calmned down. The wind forecast for the next two days is only 5 to 10 MPH. Although there was still a lot of smoke in the mountains last night, I could only see two or three areas burning. One of those areas was at the base of the mountains and I think it was a controlled burn as the firefighters tried to "connect" the areas that were burned Sunday, which was a very interesting day here, with areas that were burned by the Fort Huachuca fires on Friday, another very interesting day. There are still some active fires going on this morning on both the notheast and southwest sides of the mountains. But if the winds forecast is correct, the firefighters should be able to make a lot of progress today and tomorrow. Some of the mandatory evacuation areas have been downgraded to pre-evacuation areas. As one whose own neighborhood was probably saved by the firefighters on Friday, I can only say that these guys and gals are doing an excellent job under extremely difficult circumstances. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, You originally injected Janet into this to support your own theory that Cooper jumped into a field adjacent to the Portland Airport, then walked over to the airport parking lot, picked up his car, drove off and lived happily ever after. Do you still support your original claims? If you don't write your own posts, then you need to at least have someone read them to you and explain the big words. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, Read YOUR own post above. YOU state that the airplane Janet saw was an airplane five minutes behind Cooper's plane. Do you understand that you are saying that the airplane Janet saw, if she saw one at all, was NOT Cooper's plane? In case you haven't become aware of it yet, this thread is, or was, about D. B. Cooper. I don't know if there is a thread on DZ.com about paranormal psychology, but if there is perhaps one of the other people can point you to. And if you don't understand those three or four syllable words, perhaps one of the other people can help you with them. Robert Nicholson

Sailshaw, You don't seem to understand what you are writing. NWA 305 was NEVER at 5000 feet in the Portland area on the flight to Reno. So if you believe Janet's story about seeing someone standing on the rear stairs of an airliner that was below the overcast, it would not be NWA 305. Janet's story about MIB, presumably FBI agents, visiting her and making threats two weeks after she wrote the FBI a letter is probably nonsense as well. The FBI would have to be incompetent to take that long to get out to see her if it was an important matter. The only reason you support Janet's baloney is because you are pushing a specific candidate and need Janet to try to undercut valid informaton. Robert Nicholson