Robert99

TDG, Welcome and you have your work cut out for you. "Facts" are hard to come by in this matter and there are about 20+ versions of the facts for every item that is discussed. May I suggest that you visit Sluggo's web page and, for instance, compare the Air Traffic Control transcripts from the Seattle ATC Center with those from the Oakland ATC Center. You will rapidly come to the conclusion that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been "sanitized" after the 1971 hijacking, and probably after the money was found at Tina Bar in 1980. Apparently after the money was found, some of the facts were changed, or deleted, so as to not contradict someone's theory and the flight path was the main item changed. Consequently, there is no agreement as to the actual flight path in the Portland area. And careful checking into radar data will eliminate it as a meaningful tool for determining the flight path. Having said that, there is no reason whatsoever at this time for dismissing the possibility that the airliner actually flew directly over Tina Bar. Some people disagree with this possibility rather strongly. So please act as a defense attorney in this matter and don't accept any alleged "fact" at its face value. If you want to act as a prosecutor, Jo Weber would probably be delighted to have you assist in proving that her late husband, Duane Weber, was D. B. Cooper (although he wasn't). Again, welcome. Robert Nicholson

If KC made off with the entire $200,000, which he didn't, and ran it into about $800,000 in 22 years, he had finally found his calling. He should have been a financial consultant and he could have given lectures on the side to teach other people how to rip off the IRS. He also apparently didn't like to spend money either and decided to just leave all of it to other people. Robert

Thanks Sluggo. In her original message, Jo was apparently referring to streets in the Vancouver area and I thought she was referring to towns east of the Cascades. In any event, the baloon bomb I saw was near Wenatchee and it was shot down by P-38s that were based somewhere southeast of there, probably in the Yakima and Hanford area. It should be remembered that in early 1945, Hanford was not a familiar name. That would change with the events that following August. Robert

Jo, I cannot locate Hockinson on a map either. But you had mentioned the balloon bombs and Cold Creek may have been the name of the area where the P-38 fighters were based that shot down the one I saw. I believe this air base was in the Yakima and Hanford area but don't have any better information on it. Robert

I should have said about 5 or 10 thousand feet above ground level. Another good but obscure book all about Japanese attacks on the US West Coast during WW2: Silent Siege, lots of tech detail about the Fouga ballons and also about sub carried seaplane attack aircraft. http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Siege-III-Civilians-Documentary/dp/0936738731 Most balloons were made of doped paper. Some were assembled as class projects by school children. Some "scout" balloons had HF telemetry with a vacuum tube transmitter! The Fougas (incindiary balloons) had an ingenious system for automatically releasing sand ballast to maintain altitude. The balloons were supposed to set the Pacific NW forests ablaze but the only time the trans Pacific winds really favored the operation was winter when the forests were too wet to ignite and support a sustained burn. The program was a huge failure as a weapon. Some UFO debunkers thought the Roswell alien was a mummified Japanese midget found long after the war. Their theory was that the Japanese experimented with manned balloons to insert spies and saboteurs onto the US mainland. Small pilots would be chosen to minimize payload. Roswell crash debris was consistent with a balloon and it turned out it (according to the USAF) was a cold war balloon project carrying an instrument payload to monitor atomic tests, Project Mogul. The alien story appears to be urban myth. So does the Duane as a Ranger trained jumper story. 377 My understanding is that the balloon bomb project itself was a direct result of the insults to the Empire that resulted from the Doolittle raid in April 1942. The Japanese responded in kind as best they could but it took them about two years to get the balloons developed and most of them were launched in 1944 and 1945. Robert

I should have said about 5 or 10 thousand feet above ground level.

Jo, There is a book on the balloon bombs that you might be interested in. The title is "Balloon Bomb Attacks on North America", by Robert C. Mikesh, ISBN 0-8168-3950-6. I saw one of these balloon bombs near Wenatchee, WA in 1945. It was at about 5 or 10 feet above the ground level and being circled by a couple of P-38s which shot it down when it drifted to a more unpopulated area. Have you ever heard of Cold Creek, WA in the 1945 period? Robert

What's behind Door Number 2? Come on Monty Monster ... Will someone please get Marilyn von what's her name straightened out on this Monty Hall Problem? She repeated the same mistake on a similiar problem that appeared in her column last Sunday, September 26, in Parade Magazine.

That bag is definitely not a "brief case". I have a couple of brief cases from the early 1970s and the largest one I could find at that time has slightly less than one-half cubic foot volume. What would KC need a nav bag for since he wasn't doing any navigation? The bag looks like the type of thing that the cabin crew members would use on an overnight trip to carry a single change of clothes. The cockpit crew members would usually carry a nav bag plus an overnight type piece of luggage. Robert

I have been involved in some DNA testing for genealogical purposes. The short answer to your question is that DNA can definitely help narrow down the pool of potential suspects. If the most comprehensive type of testing is conducted, it might be able to make a connection with a reasonably close relative of Cooper. Assuming, of course, that the DNA matches someone that is currently in law enforcement data bases or that of someone who volunteers for a DNA test. Robert

I owned an NB-6 parachute until sometime in the fall of 1971. The NB-6 is unusual in several respects. The shroud lines stopped at the hem of the canopy and tapes were used over the canopy instead of shroud lines. This resulted in a smaller container being necessary and thus the parachute was more adaptable to being used in cramped cockpits (such as the sailplane I used it in). Being a conical canopy, the canopy could not be stretched out flat on a hangar floor or instance. Further, the pilot chute was unusual in that the bottom of the pilot chute assembly had a "stud" which stuck out the top of the pilot chute when it was compressed. This stud fit into either the second or third stud holes from the top of the container and went through both the underlying and overlying container flaps. The other three studs fit into only the top container flap and the rip cord pins fit into them in the normal manner. For the stud attached to the pilot chute, the rip cord pin was inserted in the normal manner and that meant that the pilot chute was attached to the container and could not be released from the container until that rip cord pin had been pulled out. If the pilot chute rip cord pin was not pulled, the parachute could not open. In my opinion, the NB-6 was not suited for skydiving in the first place. A modification to that canopy would be more difficult and the harness was an "X" type, rather than the usual "H" type, which would complicate attaching a reserve chute. In addition, the NB-6 had a price tag of about twice the standard 28 foot chute due to its being desirable for use as an emergency chute. So if Cossy managed to put a 28 foot flat canopy into th NB-6 container, he must have been a glutton for punishment. Why bother messing up a good NB-6 when there were plenty of other $40 28 foot flat canopies that did not exceed the performance of the 26 foot conical canopy? Robert

Since they were very near the equator, and since it was only about 10 days since the first day of summer, when the sun popped over the horizon it would be directly into their eyes. If all else failed, a last resort could be to fly a heading toward the point where the sun came over the horizon. There is nothing to suggest that Amelia had any experience with sextants, octants, or anything else related to celestial navigation. Also, they had apparently not used radio navigation on the flight and Amelia did not appear to know how to use it on the approach to Howland. Several different people made a study of the flight and they all concluded it was poorly planned and executed.

Robert99 What of the report Earhart was arguing with Noonan during one transmission? .................................................................. Noonan's navigation station was at the very rear of the aircraft cabin which he entered through the rear door. Earhart had to enter the cockpit by climbing onto the wing. There was a huge fuel tank between them in the aircraft. Noonan did not have access to the radio and their only means of communicating with each other was by passing notes on a clothes pin along a clothes line type arrangement. The Coast Guard cutter Itasca had a state of the art radio room with experienced operators. They stated that at one point the aircraft seemed to be so close that they expected to see it when some of them stepped outside the radio room. In celestial navigation problems such as this flight from Lae to Howland, it was standard procedure to deliberately navigate to a point either north or south of Howland and then turn in the appropriate direction to Howland. Otherwise, if you calculate that you are at Howland's location and cannot see anything, which direction do you turn? In this case, Noonan apparently elected to head to a point north of Howland and then to turn south toward the island. However, they apparently encountered the low clouds that Amelia mention in a radio transmission and were probably west of their intended longitude line which could have been caused by a very slight and undetected headwind. Also, they may have had problems with overcast cloud layers that interferred with celestial sights. But at about the half-way point, they were sighted passing an inhabited island and may have made radio contact with it. Prior to that point, they had made several position reports. It just seems that everything went down hill starting shortly before dawn. Finally, I don't think Amelia knew Morse code. At least not well enough to decipher a message that was being sent to her. Robert99

Finding the crash site is a long shot indeed, but you are underestimating how far side scan sonar has advanced. Digital signal processing, multifrequency transmitting and image enhancement has done wonders. Even consumer grade side scan sonar these days has incredible resolution. The high end commercial and military stuff is beyond awesome. They can use accelerometers and computers to take out all motion artifacts too. The US Navy in the early 1990s found and recovered a single pax door that blew out of a UAL 747 (unfortunately a few pax were also ejected by the explosive decompression) about 100 miles out of Honolulu. It was in very deep water, and was a tiny target with only a rough idea of location from radar tracking. Now deciding where to look for Amelia's Lockheed, thats the hard part. 377 I believe it was the forward (just in front of the wing) cargo door that came open and took off a part of the passenger cabin wall with it. The end result was that several passengers were ejected from the aircraft and some reportedly went through the engines resulting in the failure of both engines on the right side. If my memory is correct, the aircraft was 500+ miles southwest of Honolulu but the Navy found and recovered the door at the request of Boeing. In Amelia's case, she reported being in clouds and the only clouds the people at Howland Island could see were northwest of there. It is questionable if Amelia could make a successful ditching. She was not an overable capable pilot in the first place and she had already exposed her lack of knowledge when she asked the Coast Guard ship at Howland to give her a DF steer and then didn't give the "long count" that was necessary for that steer. In the planning for the Howland landing, Amelia did not attend the meetings in Washington with the Coast Guard. Instead, George Putnam, her husband and without any aeronautical qualifications, attended and he was specifically informed of the radio frequencies that the Coast Guard ship would have for communications. Nevertheless, Amelia asked the Coast Guard ship to transmitt on a frequency that she should have known the Coast Guard didn't have. Perhaps the metal in the engines would be more detectable than the aluminum airframe. But the general consensus of opinion, excluding the group that is looking several hundred miles south of Howland, is that Amelia went into the water probably not more than about 50 miles northwest of Howland. But the flight was very poorly planned, since as has already been pointed out, trying to locate Howland Island, a very small island, at sunrise with the sun in your eyes and having been awake about 24 hours and flying about 20 of those hours, is really pushing your luck. Robert99

. If this assumption is correct, then Cooper probably was quite near Tena Bar when he jumped. *** Robert, ===================== What evidence to you have to support that statement - have you talked to the Co-Pilot? He has been reported to have said they were EAST of Portland/Vancouver and so has the Pilot prior to his death. Remember that some of us are NOT pilots and need answers simplified. There was never any indications the plane flew to the West of PDX - (I am speaking of the airport itself). I have witness account that put the plane over Heisson and then Brush Prairie and then West of Cames. The papers where full of the claims East of Vancouver and West of Cames. Perhaps you have been led to make this supposition because of the location some of the money was found...7yrs later. Also the money had been stored in a proctected area for a period of that time. This has been stated in the Palmer Report of 1980 and again recently by a party who conducted test there within the last 2 yrs. How could the route and sitings have been so mis-led in 1971? This maybe just another qlich probagated by the authorities who want to bury Cooper in the Columbia once and for all. After 38 yrs one would have thought had the plane been West of Portland this would have come up way before 2009 when the flight became controversial in this forum Jo, thanks for the cut and paste. I hope to have answers to some of the above questions within the next week. Why would there be controversy about the route 38 yrs later? This is the unanswerable question. With radar, ATC communications logs, ARINC communications logs, phone cross-talk logs between the ATC controllers (which were available even if they weren't obtained from the Seattle Center), and airplane flight recorder records, it is amazing that the question has never been resolved based on actual data. So your question cannot be answered. Sorry. Robert

I need to explain how this ended up on a separate thread. My intentions were to post to the D. B. Cooper thread but ended up creating a new thread. I confessed to Quade and he locked the new thread. There are a number of posts prior to and related to my last post on the now locked thread. And further related posts will be forthcoming. Sluggo is now on the case and things should start being clarified shortly, maybe today. So stay tuned. Robert Nicholson

Thanks to Meux and Buff for the information. And here I go again. What follows below is derived from the best of Hammer and Tong Engineering, creative cross-plotting of questionable data, and other advanced techniques that I came across in my days as a practicing Aeronautical Engineer. So you have been warned! The only time data that can be reasonably accurate is that in the ATC transcripts related to NWA 305. I used the four times that also specified altitudes during the initial take-off and climb to 10,000 feet. Those times were plotted against altitude and the resulting manipulations resulted in a projected take-off time of 7:34 PM PST, as opposed to Sluggo's estimate of 7:33 and the FBI's estimate of 7:36. In addition, the winds aloft were estimated from the chart that depicted the original guess as to Cooper's landing zone. All of this resulted in a three segment climb to 10,000 feet with the entire climb being flown at 160 KIAS. First, the climb from the Seattle airport to 7000 feet would take 6.5 minutes and cover 16 nautical miles. The aircraft would maintain 7000 feet for 7 minutes and cover 18.5 NM. Then the climb on up to 10,000 feet would require 6 minutes and cover another 16 NM. The total time from wheels off to 10,000 feet would be 19.5 minutes and cover 50.5 NM. The end result of the above is that the climb to 7000 feet was at a rate of only about 1000 feet per minute and the climb from 7000 to 10,000 feet was at a rate of only about 500 FPM. The aircraft reported "leveling at 10,000" at about 7:53.6 PM which would be the time that it was 50.5 NM down V23. This point is about 13.5 NM north of the Malay Intersection and several NM south of the point that is labeled "1954" on the FBI charts. The distance from the 50.5 NM point to the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC is 54.5 NM and the aircraft would arrive at PDX, assuming it stayed on the centerline of V23 for the entire distance, at 8:11.8 PM PST. If this estimate is correct, then Cooper jumped within 3 NM of the PDX VORTAC assuming a jump during the time the aircraft clock showed 8:11 and assuming the clock was correct to begin with. The above was done on a conservative basis (i.e., tried to slow the airplane down) insofar as possible. There is no basis for assuming that the winds aloft were ever greater than about 30 knots at 10,000 feet, regardless of what Captain Bohan reported at 14,000 feet. While I understand the claim that Cooper jumped into a rainstorm, the weather was generally reported as good with haze and fog south of Portland and generally higher atmospheric pressure south of Seattle. Haze and fog are generally associated with relatively stable weather systems and low surface winds. To make a full disclosure here, I do not think the airliner overflew the PDX VORTAC but stayed some distance west of it to avoid flying over Portland proper. If this assumption is correct, then Cooper probably was quite near Tena Bar when he jumped. I understand that there are some strongly held opinions contradicting the above. But your comments are welcome and I look forward to seeing them. Robert Nicholson

377, georger, airtwardo, anyone else. Do you have information that can be used to estimate the climb TIME of the 727 from sea level to 10,000 feet in a standard atmosphere and in the landing gear, flap, leading edge devices, gross weight, etc., configuration that NWA had on take-off? Assume a sea level take-off and a continuous straight ahead climb to 10,000 feet. Ignore the fact that NWA 305 leveled off at 7000 feet for a minute or two. Just the climb time please. Robert

That explains those odd perforations in the Tena Bar money. 377 Does anyone have a picture or other description of the perforations or other marks that were on the Tena Bar money? Robert There are lot of Tena Bar money photos posted way back on he forum. Look at Snowmman's posts. Check this too: http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS351US351&q=db+cooper+money&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=tMsOTKXxDoPWNuCJ3esM&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQsAQwAw 377 377, thanks for the information. So let me see if I can get away with making a wild-eyed guess about this. Anyone needing proof that will stand up at the Supreme Court need not read further. Cooper did a belly landing on top of the money bag at about 180 MPH in a gravel pit (or at least an area that had small gravel) and the money next to the ground was compressed enough by the gravel so that it was damaged. Then for the next several years, the money stayed relatively protected from the elements in the bag and eventually found it way outside. Upon exposure to the elements, the parts of the bills that were damaged disappeared faster than the undamaged parts of the bills. That is, the most damaged parts of the bills would be the larger holes. Of course, some of the bill would probably not be damaged in the first place. Operating against the above idea is my own belief that the money didn't come from more than a few hundred feet down stream and probably not more than a couple of miles upstream at the absolute most. And that NW Lower River Road, which is built on top of a levee, is a definite obstacle to any land or water movement of the money from the east. Are there any gravel pits or areas at Tena Bar? Robert

That explains those odd perforations in the Tena Bar money. 377 Does anyone have a picture or other description of the perforations or other marks that were on the Tena Bar money? RobertQuote

The hijacking took place at 2:58 PM PST as the aircraft was taking off in Portland. So the chances of someone hearing about it at 2:30 PM are rather remote. Did Marianne also listen to the NWA company airborne and ground frequencies in Seattle? Perhaps 377's in-house advisor can elaborate on this point. Robert

What does your local in-house expert or the flight manuals say to do if the rear stairs come unlocked accidentally during high speed cruise flight?

Cooper may never have seen the specific control panel for the operation of the stairs that was on the NWA aircraft. If the stairs were going to be routinely lowered in flight, it may well have had a control panel with more capability, switches, etc.

Cooper was reportedly keeping himself out of sight in the rear part of the aircraft during most of the time it was on the ground in Seattle.

The communication transcripts are available on Sluggo's web page. Robert