Robert99

The purpose of the present exercise is to refine the original analysis by using different mathematical techniques as well as to incorporate new information that is now available with, hopefully, more new information that may become available. In the 42+ years since the Cooper hijacking, GPS based navigation systems have become standard equipment for airliners, general aviation and business aircraft, and many private and sports aircraft as well. With the advent of GPS systems, navigation systems based on magnetic indicators, such as the common "whiskey compass", can be eliminated. The GPS systems can be set to indicate True North, instead of Magnetic North, and all enroute navigation is then simplified and becomes more accurate since it eliminates the errors that are inherent to VOR type systems. And magnetic variation and compass deviation are no longer a consideration and can be ignored. That is, navigating from one highly accurate GPS fix to another using a great circle route, even for relatively short distances, is much more accurate over the entire route than that which can be achieved with VOR systems, especially as distance from the VOR increases. Since the NWA 305 hijacking on November 24, 1971, the datums for the maps used in aircraft navigation have been updated to the World Geodic System 1984 (WGS84), for longitude and latitude, and to the North American Vertical Datum (NAVD88), for sea level references. In the Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, Washington area, the changes were quite small and had no particular impact on aircraft navigation. However, some significant plotting mistakes were discovered on the previous sectional charts. There is no indication that any of the navigation aids or intersections used by the NWA 305 airliner on its flight to Reno have been moved from their 1971 geographical locations. However, several of the aids, and especially the intersections, have been renamed. Consequently, the current GPS fixes for all the navigational aids and intersections will be used in this analysis. The coordinates for the aids are presented in the current IFR Low Altitude Enroute Charts and the coordinates for the intersections can be found in other FAA sources and elsewhere. The coordinate values used here appear to have been determined by using Differential-GPS Systems and are, therefore, extremely accurate. It should be specifically understood that the geographical relationships between the navigational aids and intersections is exactly the same as in 1971. But again, some of the names have been changed. The following navigational aids and intersections, all on V-23, are used in this analysis: 1. SEATTLE VORTAC, Latitude: 47 degrees, 26.12 minutes, North; Longitude: 122 degrees, 18.58 minutes West; 354 feet above sea level. 2. MALAY (formerly Mayfield) Intersection, Latitude: 46 degrees, 25.37 minutes, North; Longitude: 122 degrees, 45.65 minutes, West. 3. BATTLEGROUND (formerly Portland) VORTAC, Latitude: 45 degrees, 44.87 minutes, North; Longitude: 122 degrees, 35.49 minutes, West; 253 feet above sea level. 4. CANBY Intersection, Latitude: 45 degrees, 18.63 minutes, North; Longitude: 122 degrees, 45.89 minutes, West. The significance of this intersection, and probably others, will be discussed at a later time. 5. EUGENE VORTAC, Latitude: 44 degrees, 7.25 minutes, North; Longitude: 123 degrees, 13.37 minutes, West; 364 feet above sea level. 6. ROGUE VALLEY (formerly Medford) VORTAC, Latitude 42 degrees, 28.77 minutes, North; Longitude: 122 degrees, 54.78 minutes, West; 2083 feet above sea level. 7. FORT JONES VORTAC, Latitude: 41 degrees, 26.98 minutes, North; Longitude: 122 degrees, 48.39 minutes, West; 4900 feet above sea level. The location given for the airliner during the hand-off from the Seattle ATC controller to the Oakland ATC controller was one nautical mile south of the Fort Jones VORTAC at 9:45 PM PST. This position was agreed to by both controllers. The one nautical mile in this instance would be the horizontal distance from the VORTAC as shown on the controllers radar screens. Specifically, this is NOT a DME distance. This position will be the last one (or southernmost one) considered in this analysis unless stated otherwise. Great circle distances and True Courses (which are measured with respect to the "grid lines") between the above navigational aids and fixes are as follows: 1. SEATTLE VORTAC to MALAY Intersection, 63.50 Nautical Miles, 197.09 degrees True Course departing and 196.76 degrees True Course arriving. 2. MALAY Intersection to BATTLEGROUND VORTAC, 41.11 Nautical Miles, 170.07 degrees True Course departing and 170.19 degrees True Course arriving. 3. BATTLEGROUND VORTAC to EUGENE VORTAC, 101.24 Nautical Miles, 195.58 degrees True Course departing and 195.14 degrees True Course arriving. 4. EUGENE VORTAC to ROGUE VALLEY VORTAC, 99.40 Nautical Miles, 172.07 degrees True Course departing and 172.28 degrees True Course arriving. 5. ROGUE VALLEY VORTAC to FORT JONES VORTAC, 61.97 Nautical Miles, 175.57 degrees True Course departing and 175.64 degrees True Course arriving. The next part of this analysis will be posted when the situation warrants it. Robert99

In late 2009 and early 2010, I prepared a series of posts analyzing the flight track of the airliner that was hijacked by D.B. Cooper during the time it was in the airspace controlled by the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center after it departed Seattle and headed to Reno. The only conclusion possible from that analysis was that the times and locations available could not possibly be correct. The Seattle ATC transcripts of the flight communications between the Seattle controllers and the airliner had 19 redactions and all of those redactions appeared to be solely for the purpose of removing information that would permit the determination of the airliner's flight path. Recently, the Washington State Museum made available a 23 page download that I will refer to here as the "George Harrison Papers". The George Harrison Papers were apparently notes taken by five or more people in Seattle during the actual hijacking. Basically, these notes have different times for the same event(s) and suggest that the observers were using wrist watches or other time pieces that were not synchronized. Nevertheless, these notes suggest that the airliner's takeoff time from Seattle is several minutes later than previously believed. Also, the famous 8:22 PM time for the 23 DME position south of the Battleground (formerly Portland) VORTAC may be more like 8:18 PM. The 8:22 time was actually the time that a dispatch on the ARNIC teletype system was completed. So even today, there is no way to actually determine the airliner's flight path. And the Cooper hijacking cannot be resolved/solved at this point in time unless that flight path is known. Robert99

Blevins, explain yourself. Are we suppose to laugh or cry when you make statements such as the above? How about you presenting some actual evidence yourself to back up your own claims about your Cooper candidate. Robert99 LOL. Only because you asked.

Blevins, explain yourself. Are we suppose to laugh or cry when you make statements such as the above? How about you presenting some actual evidence yourself to back up your own claims about your Cooper candidate. Robert99

Blevins writes: There is a difference between just saying you know a certain person is the hijacker, and actually PRESENTING EVIDENCE about it that includes testimony from CURRENTLY LIVING WITNESSES. Big difference. R99 replies: Do you consider your KC real estate claims to be evidence? Blevins writes: Not only that, but I said I didn't know where they kept the extra O-2 on 727's. I only asked a question about it. And that question was perfectly valid IF the O-2 bottles were NOT in plain sight. That was the whole point. R99 replies: The oxygen bottles are NOT "extra O-2". They are required equipment. And there is other required equipment in the cabin that you apparently are not aware of. In any event, the oxygen bottles have already been discussed to death here over the last several years. Blevins writes: If it turns out that Kenny Christiansen was indeed DB Cooper, that statement by Himmelsbach will always come back to haunt the FBI. It would mean one of the big reasons they never solved the case was because they were looking in the wrong place. R99 replies: Relax. Neither Himmelsbach nor the FBI have to worry about KC being the hijacker. Robert99

Blevins, Here we go again! If you had taken time to read Himmelsbach's book, you would know that the FBI had initially been directed to "assist" NWA in whatever manner NWA wanted to do. The FBI did NOT have charge of the initial response in Seattle. So if the events in Seattle were screwed up, it was by NWA. Don't blame the FBI for NWA's mistakes, assuming any "mistakes" were made by anyone in Seattle. Since you don't have any law enforcement experience or training in the first place, all of your advice to the FBI 42 years after the hijacking is just another example of your self-serving posts. On the matter of the oxygen bottles, you don't know what you are talking about there either. In the early 1970s yellow oxygen bottles were routinely carried in the cabins of jet airliners and I spent quite a bit of time sitting close to them. The yellow oxygen bottles were low pressure (about 400 PSI, that is why they were painted yellow) and were portable. They were used to provide the flight attendants with a mobile oxygen supply as they moved about the cabin during decompressions at altitude. In case of a passenger medical emergency, they could also be used to provide more oxygen to that passenger than would be available from the normal cabin air. These oxygen bottles were normally mounted on a bulkhead and/or at one end of the cabin or another. And they were NOT hidden. They were mounted in plain sight and had fast mounting releases so that the flight attendants could grab them and get to where the problem was in a hurry. All Cooper was telling Tina was that he knew what those yellow bottles contained. All this means is that Cooper had enough aviation experience to know where the oxygen was if he needed it at 10,000 feet. This was a couple of thousand feet higher than the normal cabin pressure altitude in that era which was usually about 8000 feet or less. Your statements about how you wanted the FBI to do your homework in the KC matter have been deleted from the above. You and Jo Weber using the FBI as a whipping boy for apparently not doing anything to support your allegations about KC and Duane Weber is just another example of how shameless both of you can be. Robert99

It has been said that the famous "Charge of the Light Brigade" was a mistake caused by inadequate information. Supposedly, a high-ranking British cavalryman noticed that the enemy (Turks?) was about to make off with a couple of small but symbolic British cannons on one part of the battlefield. He didn't want that to happen. The Light Brigade was behind a small hill from the "Valley of Death" at that moment and out of sight. But the good Lord rode around the hill to the Brigade and yelled simply "follow me". The Brigade did. As the Brigade rounded the hill and the battlefield came into view, the good Lord was shot and killed. The Light Brigade commanders didn't see anything else of consequence and assumed that they were suppose to charge straight ahead. And they did, straight into the "Valley of Death" and English Literature. Robert99

Are you aware that Jo got a dead dog exhumed based on her conviction that Cooper evidence was buried with it? 377 I hadn't heard that before. But strangely enough, I think it is totally believable. Robert99

What? No way. There were many "Janets" who witnessed the surface to air missile strike on TWA 800. They also saw a cruise missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11. 377 And don't forget the guy on the grassy knoll and all the people that were suppose to be buried with Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was actually dug up to check on that one and it turned out to be incorrect. But the real "experts" are all the people who swear they know/saw something that couldn't possibly be correct and they can be a pain in the rear. The opinions of "experts", and we seem to have one or two on this thread who think they are, seems to be more highly valued than actual facts in some circles. Robert99

Smokin, keep the faith a bit longer. Don't give up just yet. Robert99

The possibility of these hazards was brought to light by the TWA Flight 800 Boeing 747 that did go kaboom off Long Island a number of years ago.

Blevins shameless self-promotion has no bounds. He has attached his name to the Fazio property online and ever other site he can find to give the impression to anyone casually passing by that he is a "leading Cooper researcher". Blevins, can you name a single thing that you have done to advance the search for D. B. Cooper? And can you name any skills or such that you have that could possibly contribute to such a search? Your book on KC is riddled with errors and is so poorly researched that any reasonably competent or ethical publisher would reject it out of hand. Nevertheless, you self-publish it even with known significant errors which, if KC was still alive, would probably result in legal action against you. And by your own statement you have two additional books related to the Cooper hijacking in the planning stage. This Cooper thread and the Cooper hijacking may well be the best thing that ever happened to you and Adventure Books, but your ego tripping and such are obvious. Dream on! Robert99

377, I converted everything possible to CFLs about 5 years ago and had a noticeable reduction in my electricity bill (possibility up to 10 percent). About a month ago, I changed the standard long fluorescent bulbs in my kitchen. These standard 40 watt long things now come in various degrees of "brightness". I got the bulbs with "daylight" brightness and almost had to wear sun glasses for the first couple of days. As I am sure you know, the CFL bulbs also come with different brightness levels including "daylight". Robert99

True...there have been prominent ones with extensive searches as well. In October 1972, US House Majority Leader Hale Boggs (and father of ABC's Cokie Roberts) and representative Nick Begich (father of the current Alaska senator) disappeared on a flight from Anchroage to Juneau. Despite Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard searches for nearly six weeks, nothing was ever found. Let me add some comments to Smokin and Mark's citations then I have my own personal story to add. The aircraft missing in Canada is probably in a small lake between its point of departure and it destination. That area of Canada seems to have been mostly small lake country in 1971. If the pilot had an engine problem at night, he would not be able to select a suitable landing place. He would just have to take what showed in his landing lights as he came down. That area of Canada is basically unpopulated and, if he is ever found, it will probably be by pure chance. The Boggs aircraft is probably in the glacier, I forget its name, near where it was last reported. There is a chance that aircraft will eventually come out of the ice. Other aircraft in both Alaska and South America have emerged from glaciers after being missing for more than 50 years. My own personal story involves a politically prominent individual who, the day after returning from a US Government trade mission, got into his private aircraft and headed to Dallas, TX to visit his friend whose name was either Neiman or Marcus (they founded the famous Neiman-Marcus Department Store in Dallas and only one was alive at that point). Late in the day, Neiman or Marcus, called the fellows home and asked if he was still coming to Dallas. Since the individual had left home early that morning, this was the first indication that an accident had occurred. The resulting search was the fourth largest search in the 48 contiguous states at that point. They didn't find a thing. About nine months later, the wreckage was found under heavy foliage on the side of a hill by a forestry survey crew. It appeared that the aircraft had exploded under the foliage and didn't do enough damage to the top of the foliage for air searchers to notice. This fellow was a genuinely good guy who made sure that teenage airport bums, such as myself, got a ride in his airplane from time to time. Robert99

FLYJACK/BULLJAX/WHOEVER, You have certainly got Jo Weber pegged correctly. Congratulations! Robert99 Since you do NOT have PM's available to me it is necessary I say this in an open post: I suggest you go back and READ the postings I made...regarding his STRAW MAN effect! If you will open you PM for one message then YOU will understand something entirely... Contact the FBI about a man who was contacting me for several months? The man threatened me and would get VERY angry. An individual connected to the case ended up deceased. Protective measures had to be taken. The FBI supposedly spoke to the person, but never verified this to me. DO not encourage this man's annomosity toward me. I will state one last time Bulljax and flyjack are probably one and the same. I wouldn't PLAY his game - and he had been quiet for several wks - then up shows Flyjack. Please TO NOT encourage this man's annomosity toward me. I am CONTACTING the FBI about him and they will find out if he is the SAME man. Jo, it really takes some doing to get on my PM banned list. So you should have a feeling of accomplishment about that. But you are going to stay on that list. If you actually feel threatened by anyone, the first people to contact are your local police and phone company. If there is a factual basis for your claims, those people can handle it from there including getting the FBI and other law enforcement agencies involved. Now about building straw men. Some time back YOU posted a lengthy piece on Duane Weber in which you asked more than 20 "What If" type questions (I counted them). Then you "concluded" that Duane had gained all kinds of information while in jail with 727 airline pilots and others who were experienced parachutists. You did not have a single thing to back up any of your "conclusions". So who is it that really builds straw men? Are you trying to say in plain language that Flyjack killed Cossey? If you have any information whatsoever to back up your claim, you should notify the King County, WA Sheriff's Department immediately. But hallucinations are not something they can act on. ON OTHER MATTERS: Quade has not asked for my opinions and will probably have the good sense to ignore them, but here are my suggestions on people to be banned from this thread and others to be re-admitted: 1. Ban Blevins for several months. He needs the time to finish the research on his KC book which has already been out for several years. Not to mention he hopefully will do at least a bit of research for his two upcoming books, which he has already announced. 2. Ban Jo Weber forever + 100 years. The reasons are obvious. No further explanation is needed. 3. Re-admit Snowmman. Or please explain what he did to get into such a deep hole. Everyone is wondering what happened. 4. Re-admit Meyer Louie. This thread can always use another mathematician. Robert99

FLYJACK/BULLJAX/WHOEVER, You have certainly got Jo Weber pegged correctly. Congratulations! Robert99

Flyjack, I hate to tell you this, but the so-called FBI maps are worthless. For instance, take a look at the distances flown per minute. At a constant speed, do you fly 3 miles in one minute and then 6 miles in the very next minute? Also, no pilot would fly a segmented circle around the west side of Portland while operating under the conditions that existed for NWA 305. Then there is the problem of the FBI not knowing where these maps came from in the first place and Himmelsbach reportedly stating that he had never seen them prior to the last few years. None of the above means anything to Blevins and Jo Weber since they do not have to obey the laws of logic. At least not if Blevins can sell books otherwise. What Jo Weber is getting out of this whole exercise remains unknown and that is the biggest mystery on this thread. Robert99

Perhaps Blevins can tell us if Larry Carr had even been born by 1971/1972?

Assumes facts not in evidence. How do you know the money was never spent if no one was looking for it within six months after the hijacking... Spock would say that statement is illogical. We will have to agree to disagree with your assumption that it was 'easy' for NW tellers to check all their incoming twenties against that 34-page list. Blevins, You are getting to be more out of touch with reality by the minute. Robert99

Blevins, First read my post number 49441 and then go to Wikipedia and search for "alphanumeric sequences" and, I assume since I haven't checked it myself, that an article will turn up explaining the subject. You simply DO NOT understand what you are talking about above. Robert99

Well, you say it would be easy for tellers to check their twenties against that 10,000 number list. This is where we part company, opinion-wise. I think it was enough to make tellers pull out their hair, and they probably breathed a sigh of relief when their particular bank gave up the effort. Remember...there are 33 OTHER pages comprising that list, not just the 300 or so numbers shown. Take a look at the picture again. Then try to tell me with a straight face how 'easy' a process it all was. Blevins, for a given bill number, you don't have to check the whole 10,000 bill list! Get real! You are saying that if you are looking for the number 2 in a list that is ordered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 that you would continue past 2 and go all the way to 9 even after finding 2. Again, get real! And for alphanumeric sequences you don't necessarily even start at the first bill on the list. You go to the first listing that starts with the first letter (alpha) or number (numeric) of the bill you are checking. If the bill serial numbers are in a ringed binder, it probably wouldn't take a reasonably experienced clerk more than 15 seconds to check it out after she first noticed the appropriate series year on the front of the bill. Your efforts to make checking the serial numbers so difficult that nobody would do it is because YOU need to explain why none of the ransom, other than the money found at Tina Bar, was ever found. It's simple - The remainder of the ransom was never found is because it was NEVER found. Nobody, much less KC, ever spent it. Robert99

Well, you say it would be easy for tellers to check their twenties against that 10,000 number list. This is where we part company, opinion-wise. I think it was enough to make tellers pull out their hair, and they probably breathed a sigh of relief when their particular bank gave up the effort. Remember...there are 33 OTHER pages comprising that list, not just the 300 or so numbers shown. Take a look at the picture again. Then try to tell me with a straight face how 'easy' a process it all was. Blevins, Look at the numbers in the attachment to your post, those numbers are in alphanumerical order! They are NOT random! Robert99

Well, you could say that about almost any suspect, since the plane was hijacked late in the afternoon right before a major holiday. Banking hours are generally the same anywhere you go. Everyone who lived in the Seattle area knew that one of the reasons SeaFirst was so popular was because many branches stayed open until 6PM. Not sure if that matters, though. How would the hijacker know where NWA planned on obtaining the money? Explanation: You assume the hijacker knew the money would be coming from an actual bank. Perhaps he thought it would be coming from the airline itself. Maybe he figured a major company like NWA would have that kind of cash available on hand. On the search for the bills: It was well-known that the tellers at Northwest banks had a hell of a time checking all their incoming twenties against the list. This is why the effort stopped so soon after the hijacking. Sure, you could eliminate some of the bills by looking at the dates. But every time you find one with a correct date, then you have to take that bill and wade through that massive 34-page list of numbers again. Since the numbers were NOT sequential, but RANDOM serial numbers...this means you have to look at practically every single number on the list against the bill in your hand. What fun... We will call that 'The 10,000 Number Shuffle'. I would imagine by the time the banks finally gave up the effort, that the tellers hated D.B. Cooper for sure. Blevins, On page 128 of Tosaw's book is a letter of transmittal from old J. Edgar Hoover himself to the banking community and everyone else. The letter is dated November 29, 1971 (5 days after the hijacking) the entire list of bill numbers is attached. From just a casual glance at the list, it appears that the entire list is in alphanumerical order. In plain language, that means the list is not random but in an ordered sequence. Added to the fact that only three series years are involved (1950, 1966, 1969) and need to be considered, it is as easy as apple pie to check a bill for one of the series years against that list. Of course, NWA had to get the money from a bank! The ransom money was equivalent to more than one million dollars in today's money. It would be stupid beyond belief to thank that NWA had dedicated funds on hand for a possible hijacking. Where would NWA keep the physical money? Minneapolis, Tokyo, Washington (DC), Portland, Seattle, Missoula? How would the hijacker know that NWA had ANY money, over and above their normal operating funds, at the airport in Seattle. Believe it or not, airlines use banks and checks also. Robert99

Robert, Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that there were not just these two options: Trying to check every bill that came into the banking system or not checking any bills? There was either some sort of "sampling" or choosing certain banks or types of transactions for these bills? If so, what would they be? You don't say which kidnapping case you're referring to, and I assume it's not the Lindbergh kidnapping, but Bruno Hauptmann was captured as a result of passing one of the ransom bills and that was two and half years after the kidnapping. And, that was in 1934 -- 37 years prior to DB Cooper. Now, it's true there were some circumstances that made tracing those bills easier (they were gold certificates which were being removed from circulation starting in 1933). But it does show that tracking bills, although difficult, is not impossible. Nowadays, all you'd have to do is stamp "Where's George" on the bill and the public would track it.

Right....that's why the list of bills issued to the NW banks, the Fed, and the casinos, was 34 pages of 10,000 non-sequential numbers. So the selection of bills given to the hijacker could be easily tracked and stuff. (*laughs*) You are kidding, right? Blevins, You should read Himmelsbach's book sometime. No kidding. Robert99 I've read it. Reality Check: 10,000 non-sequential serial numbers. Bills gathered in a quick-fast New York hurry. Thirty-four page list of these numbers issued to the Fed, all NW banks, casinos. All were asked to check each and every of their incoming twenties. This list available at the FBI's website. All of these entities gave up the effort within three to six months. Treasury probably didn't even bother, although the Fed banks did for (likely) the same amount of time. But since they see many more twenties than your average local bank, that effort was almost certainly short-term. Tellers would have been walking off the job, being asked to check each twenty against that 34-page nightmare for months on end. Have you actually LOOKED at the list? You should. Do you dispute these things? If so, I will link you to the radio interview with Larry Carr and present the list. Blevins, Hell yes I dispute your claims. I may have been wrong about the following information being in Himmelsbach's book. He does not have an index and I am not going to spend the time to go through his book again page by page. But here is something on page 127 of Tosaw's book: ". . . most bills [in a search] can be quickly eliminated since all the missing bills had printed on them one of the series years 1950, 1963 or 1969." So that alone narrows the bills of interest down and who knows (other than the bank and the FBI) what else had been done to simplify the search for the loot. Also, the bills were part of a special stash that had been set aside for just such a purpose. While on the subject of the money, the bank people in Seattle apparently had to do quite a bit of extra work to even get the money from the special stash due to the fact that the banks were probably closed, or at least closing, by the time they were aware of the hijacking and money demand. And since this was the day before Thanksgiving, I imagine that bank personnel were already heading home. This suggests that the hijacker was not familiar with the banking hours in Seattle. KC would have known about the banking hours and probably would have hijacked an airliner an hour or two earlier to make sure that NWA or the FBI could get the money. Or to put it another way, the time of the hijacking suggests that KC was not involved. Robert99