georger

REP: and so it is! The Guppy. Good one 377.

It was just a pebble besides I couldn't hit an elepant in my yard, much less a BOXER - I was corrected today. REPLY> Had Duane ever been a boxer or suffered a serious head injury? G.

377 - I can answer that. He did say Aft Stairs becauseI asked him what Aft stairs was (I didn't have a clue) and his reply was that it was the stairways in prisons. Also remember that this was in the middle of the night when he was having a nightmare and talking in his sleep. REPLY> Was Duane ever diagnosed as being paranoid schizophrenic, or having a brain tumor or lesion? G.

I own three dogs and do a lot of dog training. I've taught one of them to ride a skateboard. I'd have a hard time believing someone on this thread is going to be able to shout me down about dogs. REPLY: WELL SAID. So we can bitch about the "raincoat" or "topcoat" but we're don't even know what kind of coat we're talking about. REPLY: We dont even know for a fact, he had it on when he bailed! Tina saw him with it on preparing to go with it on, it appeared to her, but he could have refitted once Tina was gone, he could have modified the coat ... there is no evidence he did but he had enough time. What surpsied Tina was the ease with which he dawned his chute in the first place - like he was xperienced. This in no manner diminishes the testimony of the experts here, but the fact is, nobody was there with Cooper to witnesses it. And nobody has solved this case to date, so far as I know. One limiting factor on tying would be the number of lines he cut from the reserve to tie things down with. You can only tie so much down on your person with n_number of lines of length L.

AggieDave I don’t want to (try to) speak for Jo, but I think I know why she originally thought you were female. If fact, the first time I saw your post, I thought the same, then I decided you were both male and female (two people, not a hermaphrodite). Let me explain it like this: “Aggie” looks a lot like “Angie.” So, at first glance my mind said this is Angie-something. Then on closer inspection it looked like “AngieDave,” so now I’m thinking of this nice skydiving couple who share an account (as many do, especially “Premium" or "Subscription” accounts). It was only after looking at your profile (or maybe I saw a post that mentioned Texas) that I realized you must be a Texas A&M alumni or fan. All of us aren’t into collegiate sports, or are familiar with the College and University mascots. So screen names that start with Tide, Pirate, Dawg, Jacket, Volunteer, Razorback, War Eagle, Eagle, Gator, or Seminole do not necessarily immediately “hook-up in our brain.” Especially, if it isn’t apparent where you are located. Make sense? Oh, BTW, Jo has a pretty keen “sense of humor” that you guys don’t let come through. When you got “mad, real mad,” you became “Ms” forever (or at least as long as you are adversarial toward her). [That's IMHO] Sluggo_Monster REPLY: I leave no doubt about where I stand in this. The minute Ckret says I am being 'irritating' then I will be gone or something - does that satisfy you? I trully am not trying to be irritating at all. I honestly dont know where this is coming from or why. But I am very aware you keep bringing it up. George

georger, As irritated as I get with Orange1’s constant harassment of Jo, I find myself coming to his defense (as a member of the sky ape/bird turd skydiving community… him, not me). On this forum (thread) we have very few individuals who produce bona fides. Ckret is an experienced LE professional, and is one of the exceptions. Most posters don’t reveal any “areas of expertise” where they are considered “experts.” However, each of the sky ape/bird turd skydivers has their bona fides right in the left-hand margin (if you have your screen set up like mine). Orange1, airtwardo, and AggieDave have at least 5988 jumps between them (I have no idea how many sangrio has, but I’ll bet it is a few). That makes them “experts in the field.” Sluggo_Monster, snowmman, and georger have…… ummm let me see… carry the zero… subtract the j-operator… find the cube-root…. Oh yeah… ZERO jumps between them. So to my way of thinking, when more than one “expert in the field” tells me that something is true… I believe them. I don’t feel like I have to “see it”, although, it would be nice if I could. The reason that this thread is on this forum, on this web site, is because of the skydiving expertise. I understand why they get irritated at the whuffos. I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed access for all of us one day. You have a unique way of investigating NORJAK and have made many positive contributions, please keep doing that. But, please… please… PLEASE… try not to irritate the sky ape/birds turds skydivers, by challenging their opinions in the areas of their expertise. Just a little advice/request from Ckret’s creepy uncle Sluggo, Sluggo_Monster REPLY: I am well aware of their credentials and appreciate it. It is precisely because of their solid credentials that serious discussion and investigation can take place. I would not be asking these questions of some random Joe on the street, any more than they would. All I can ask for is some tolerance as time hopfully will make things clear. I would not be asking these questions anywhere else but here, and there is a reason for that. Ckret knows why I am here. If the discussion ceases to be productive then I will leave and perhaps watch and say nothing. I am not trying to be irritating at all. I am always open to a PM. But I appreciate your expressing your concern. In fact you raise a good question: would any of the highly experienced people here try a skyjacking? Probably not. Why? Follow that line of thought - Thanks - George

If someone is going to make a medical and psycological opininions of me regarding my posts and my search - that person needs to display their credentials or cease posting in that manner. I believe it is "criminal" to pose as a Dr. of anything. All I am doing is trying to find that one simple something that is being missed that will end all of this and that is ALL that my post reflect.

ok... now put yourself at the prow of the boat. boat is going 120mph (or more - exit speed). somehow get yourself so that your legs are facing the 120mph+ wind (with no 'help' subduing the coat by lying down). Is the coat still compressed against your body acting as windbreak? REPLY> I see the point. The forces are not comparable (boat vs drop). And if the coat opens up, its potentially even worse. The fact of a trench coat is not exactly conducive to slip streaming, but a lot depends on how he falls, how he handles this drop, how quickly he opens the chute, etc. Which takes us back to whether he was a novice or experienced. Keep in mind Cossey said this was a double motion (pull) chute which makes even more problematic. If he was no more competent pulling a chute than he was getting the chairs down, then he's right on the edge of trouble or worse. Let me also say this which has nothing to do with whether he survived or not but speaks to the public glamor over Cooper. I think from the public's point of view everyone instantly recognised that Cooper parachuting was inherently dangerous. Then he was never found which opens to the door to "he may have survived" when most people wouldn't. This alone elevates Cooper into hero status, someone special potentially, an atheletic hero. The Olympian of the hijack trade! And facts be damned. Its much easier to believe a myth when facts are not at hand and part of the story. What intrigues the heck out of me is that he would do this at all which puts Cooper somewhere between total ignorance or somebody with experience. The man was either suicidal or there was something about this that in his mind made it a viable option. I just dont see this guy as wreckless - he did too many things right and used good instincts to accomplish what he did. For me its one of the missing links.

QuoteMs AGGIE: Only someone with some real 'stones' can call a 260 pound Texas Cop..."Ms." REPLY: Shawn Johnson could!

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=8822&cn=7 REPLY> I will only remark that the pathologies you list above often are at the root of cult activity. If the flying saucer or the Unicorn fail to show up it seldom deters reorganisation of cults and the participants are right back at it again quickly, powered by the underlying pathologies described. Early in my academic life Istudied this at some length. For a physicist it was interesting, to say the least. The tug and pull between the subjective and the rational is eternal! The important point is: the underlying condition must exist prior to the social actualisation or social witness of the condition. Usually due to early life experience. This may have nothing to do with this case, or it may. Subjective self reinforcement even in the face of lack of support in the community at large, can be a powerful determiner of action. It can motivate people to do all kinds of things, for good or evil. Performance can be tied to motivation.

I can imagine an experiment that might result in a significant percentage of deaths now. Possibly even with experienced jumpers. Jump with raincoat on under harness. At night, from 10k ft. Jet exit. rain/temp is probably not a big variable, so ignore that. In looking at the harness, I'm not clear on whether a raincoat would really flap as much as people say. (just not obvious to me). REPLY: I just cant see this flapping raincoat especially in the upper section which would interfere with the pulling ring?. I must be missing something. Most raincoats (trench coat) are fairly tight fitting. Its not like a lot of lose material. In a fall or in stiff wind these raincoats compress against the body. (like standing at the front of a ship in a trench coat). The coat could serve as an excellent windbreak. Ah! Maybe he had tried this before and knew firsthand how a trenchcoat would work? Keep in mind he has to cross several boundaries at once in his dress - civilian acceptability, cover, annoymity, windbreak while parachuting? The selection may have been intentional based one experience. How many other jumpers wore trench coats? Georger

Jo, I am sorry that you may have been embarrassed or humiliated, but how can you take a law enforcement official to task for disclosing a public record about a criminal? Do you ever think about Duane's many victims and how their lives were impacted by his actions? When he would upgrade his apparel with restaurant cloak room swaps, didn't you think about the person whose coat was stolen by Duane? You knew he was doing it. Did you reprimand him or demand that he return the stolen item? I know love can blind and I know you do not condone crime. You did however go along for the ride in some instances. I just think Duane made a lot of people miserable and you should be able to tolerate some of the embarrassing consequences of his selfish actions. It is time to stop giving Ckret a hard time about the record disclosure. He apologized which is more than many would have done. I do think you are obsessed with proving Duane was Cooper, but I do not share the view that this is a psychosis or delusional thinking. There is evidence to support your theory, but there is also evidence to the contrary which you ignore or attack. I do hope you resolve the mystery to your satisfaction during your trip. I know how it must feel to be certain of something that everyone else discounts as a delusion. I do have sympathy for you, and felt your pain during some of the vicious attacks that were posted months ago when you got into the James Earl Ray and MLK topics. The forum is much more civil now. I just want to be sure you are being fair to those who do not share your views. peace, 377 REPLY: What are the odds this will work? (hee hee)

REPLY: Ive been following these - some amazing stories here. Common threads throughout. Thanks..

Thanks Ckret - George

ALSO: Did he leave the brown paper bag behind, in the Lav ?

QuoteQuoteOn a second sweep some magazines Did the FBI get prints from any passengers on 305 that deplaned before Portland (it started on the East coast, as we've noted) REPLY> Are dead people automatically figerprinted, I mean at hospitals, in morgues, funeral homes, etc? It comes to mind to ask!

From my interpretation of the transcripts (all of them available to me), I believe almost no one at NWA thought it could be done. The Page 99 reference to “ABILITY TO JUMP OUT OF A 707 WITH A PARACHUTE ON IS NIL” is indicative of this. (Once you resolve the “707 vs. 727” issue.) It was Boeing who told them it could be done and Boeing that furnished a procedure to do it (as opposed to NWA). I get the sense that the procedure wasn’t “canned” but rather written while 305 was on the ground at SEA. It was included with the charts and instrument plates sent to the aircraft. So, in summary… I think “surprised” is an adequate description. Sluggo_Monster REPLY> Agree.

Funny, a jet jump (in my case a DC 9-21) is a very easy jump, but has far more "social value" than other more difficult jumps from prop planes. If Cooper had hijacked a puddle jumper commuter airliner I bet they wouldn't have scrambled as hard to meet his demands. I still think he must have known, in advance, that a 727 ventral in flight exit was possible. Otherwise, he was walking into nearly certain capture. Only an idiot would do it without knowing for sure that he had a way out. I very much agree ...

Yes, georger, you're following the rational thought process that I would expect. Now: count out the ways the investigation was skewed because it was a 727. 1) this CIA/727/Vietnam mythology. (there was no CIA/DC-9/Vietnam mythology.) 2) Boeing is in WA. Boeing/WA aviation had layoffs. Hijackers tended to be unemployed. The hijack was in WA. Therefore Cooper must be WA aviation engineer, even though he apparently thought seeing Tacoma from the air was quite novel. REPLY: These dont logically connect for me, automatically - without proof. He could have been an outside observer who stepped in to take advantage of an opportunity. A serial opportunist who had up to that time been operating in other venues. He slipped in the back door and out of the back door! He didnt issue forewarning and didnt leave a calling card when he left - or did he? In 1971 he would not have known about future snps and genetic science. He asks for his note back but then leaves butts and his tie and finger prints behind. When the money arrives and he looks at he jumps up and down like a child amazed 'all of this is working'! Had he had other visions in his mind of perhaps being subdued or shot and dying? I think he was capable of doubt and had doubts this would work, judging by his reactions. Whatever his connections in life had been, we may never know. It was during Vietnam and a lot of people were upset, for all kinds of reasons. The timing was all in order for him, including his age. Much older and probably not. Most people settle down in the forties - not Cooper. This places in the A catagory, as I see it. I seriously wonder if he had pulled a few other stunts before the hijacking and had managed to get away with those. Unemployed? Who needs employment when you can hijack and parachute out of planes! A rather independent type but perhaps dependent underneath. Engineer? Engineers have fairly strong social skills especially within their own group. I see Cooper as more of a loner ... a bank robber or financial type maybe.

If the first successful jump had been from a DC-9 rather than a 727, would the investigation be any different? If so, why? (you saw that one of the later successful jumps was from a DC-9, right?) REPLY> Why would the investigation be different? A jump is a jump. Unless something about the case is aircraft specific. I suppose some hijackers would turn nose up at bailing from a 727 vs a DC9, or the reverse? Cooper chose an aircraft which had presteige at the time, and of course bailing from a jet .... that had social technical value at the time. I think all hijackers select a target of opportunity. Its pretty clear Cooper picked his target, day, and time. It's a law of Nature that weaknesses are going to be exploited. Cooper saw what he thought was a vulnerable opportunity, and he acted. Its predatory. So whether a 727 or a DC9 or whatever, the underlying process is basically the same. There is another law of Nature however. There is no free cheese.

QuoteI know we have a hard time letting go of myths like the CIA/727/vietnam airdrop myth, even if there are no supporting facts. REPLY> Let me remind when this came up for real on 11-24 there was (surprise?) that someone was asking for chutes to parachute from 305 - the transcripts (to me) reflect that surprise. I mean it started discussion (can this be done?). I wonder what sense Sluggo gets from the transcripts on this ? George

I'm obviously not Ckret, but I have talked about Bohan with him and didn't get the impression he was ever interviewed. Rather curiously no mention of a flight number. I also can't find a timetable online from that time period. Continental did run flights from SEA to PDX at that time period though. I don't think you need to spend to much time trying to understand this one either, but I'm ready to discuss when you are. REPLY. Im all ears - go! I wondered also about the flight # ... did a search on Tom Bohan ... recognised commercial pilot ... deceased now ... but he and H had breakfast where they discussed the hijacking and Bohan let it drop he had been 4 mins behind! H stopped eating! Tell us all you know. George

Shhhh... it's clearly all part of The Great Cover-Up To Prevent The World Knowing The Truth About DB Cooper. REPLY> ROGER WILCO - CODER RING ON.

REPLY: Ok let me get specific. During the TET offensive wasnt just about anything that could carry a box sent up north to do drops? Granted, the 727 isnt exactly a good cargo plane but in a pinch ... Was there a prohibition?