georger

p.s. Have you seen my fish? Its all in the toaster -

To be honest Jo, this response undermines your arguments even more - if this is the kind of thing that you base your convictions on. I am starting to think that the clerk in China has simply been baiting you too, and you have taken it all far too seriously. In the meantime, please refer back to Happythought's post. reply ~~~~~ all shadows and dust. leveling off at 47 thousand and cant see Weber anywhere - oh what JOY! spent some time purring around at 10 thousand yesterday just to give myself some perspective on what choices our boy really had, clouds and all. its been a long long time since Ive had the freedom to do this and I like it. Actually, I love it. Until you are really up here its all table talk. Forgetting the chute for a minute it comes down to winds and skills and if he had no skills and the winds were kvetchy (mavericky!) well, then its physics and luck, and placement. I think our boy had less choices than table talk would suggest. The physics takes over immediately if he had no skills. shadows and dust. (trenches on the ground is pretty funny from up here if you dont mind my saying so!) I think we have been looking at the dog from the wrong end. ! georger

reply... Beautiful! The whole thing. Thanks for the tip. Im in, the land of red rocks and be back soon. Good work going on here! Yep, Sluggo is still alive - talked to him just before I left. I have this beautiful auburn haired Irish stew who wants to buy me a drink so must fly ... sorry guys! Georger

sorry for another post, but just noticed something in Ckret's post that was odd. Ckret: why did you spend hours removing knots to estimate the length of cord Cooper used? (edit) oh wait: now I think I understand. It got knotted up in storage..i.e. tangled. When Cooper saw it there were no knots. Is that right? (you can tell I'm clueless here) reply> small ropes are sometimes knotted for gripping. some cultures also knots ropes as a part of ritual-religious practice. In fact, there is a rope knotting code in several cultures where people send or leave messages via knots in ropes (Dakota Sioux, Hindus, etc.) In fact, bridle and whip loop knots in several horse cultures are used for personal identification. This has been going on in human communities for thousands of years. Knots are a well known form of communication and personal expression. More Jesus-in-the-Toast! Georger

Georger, not sure if I am missing something, but why is it automatic Cooper would have died when many other skydivers have successfully made jet jumps? reply - Orange, I was stating the opinion of a Boeing engineer who thinks Coop could not have survived, ... not my opinion. Georger

reply - well, the forces can be estimated. The facts however are unknown. What bothers me about all of this is: I have a statement from one of the Boeing engineers who worked on the Cooper vane. They did calculations (made estimates) of the forces involved in the jump. I do not know if this crossed with the Boeing enginner Ckret now cites who was a member of the NWA jump club? But the statement I have from my Boeing engineer is stark and described forces no ordinary person could manage and survive. In fact my Boeing friend is so firm about this he says, "That you are spending one minute on this is _____ and I think its a total waste of time. He died and there is no other possibility. We knew that immediately." So, how an unknown container tied in an unknown manner with canopy lines cut from the one front pack figures into these forces ??? My take from the expert jumpers here is its problematic at best and may account for how money wound up at Tina Bar after separating from Cooper very early.. Georger

prussik knot is smooth nylon sheathed cord against smooth nylon sheathed rope. Nothing slicker than that! Basically, your (our) thinking about this issue is fact-free. It's all about clamping forces and friction. Nylon has friction. In fact, since the narrow nylon cord "bites" into and deforms the object it wraps around, it has additional resistance due to that..The key is that the canvas has to be compressed sufficiently during the tie, so the turbulent loading doesn't rip the cord off before the clamping force and canvas interact. Actually, a bag attached solely by the neck tie might have the best chance of succeeding. If the neck tie wasn't loaded, it might actually come off easier. A heavily hemmed bank bag (it was an open sack) might also affect things somehow. Basically too many variables. Interesting enough to do a loading experiment with weights, if really interested. Enough variables, that anyone who claims "no go" is ...just guessing. Reply: noted ... here's a type of coarse nylon used in sailing rope ... G.

Reply: who knows what knot(s) Cooper tied - and jumpers will know a lot about what can and cannot be done with nylon. Ive had mixed experiences with it while climbing, boating, etc. It frankly seems to me the old limp nylon rope secures best vs new. I mean knots sinch down tight and stay tight especially when wet or cold. One of my sons is a climber (Denali) and hates nylon - he says nylon rope is a death sentence. In the case of parachuting I guess burst strength it would be important. Now I may get into trouble with the experts on this but off the shelf smooth nylon is slick. Knots can pull out. (Coarse nylon rope is far better). Nylon is basically a solid tube, and when it bursts or tears it fails completely? see attached...

"Before we hit I-5 he pointed down a road and told me about a tavern at Dollars Corner and that he knew a man there. I went to Dollar Corner in 2001 and asked a lot of questions. One man (named Snow) pulled me aside and gave me the directions and the a man I was to find. He claimed to have remembered the man in the picture I showed and that he used to get up and sing with the band...and that this other man was a hermit type but that he knew him....the crew and I never found the man and they had a schedule. I also did not have time to go back on my own with the ladies (one was an undercover Narco off-duty doing this as a favor)." Sounds like she found Teddy Mayfield!

I had a longer reply but a short one will suffice. This answer is wrong. You can't move and have the calculations be correct unless the wind is exactly the same as calculated in the original spot. Also the plane speed (more precisely velocity?) is different at a different point south. (which means cooper's speed plus direction at jump is different. And heck we might not have the data but possibly the alititude at jump is different. Basically everything's different, and it's even unclear how accurate the original calcuation was, because of it's fuzzy use of error margins in the data...i.e. the idea of drawing a couple of straight lines is bad graphing of error boundaries I think. Basically, you have to start all over. Surprised Ckret thinks the old calculations/map can be reused, just shifting it south. It's like it's 1971 again, and bad use of data again? The 1971 data is correct when looked at from a "general" sense. There are far too many unknowns for any real precision. The winds a few miles south of the 1971 search are generally the same, the speed of the aircraft is generally the same, the performance of the chute is generally the same. When we can locate more specific data we can plug it in and hope for a better result but we don’t have that, “is that so wrong” I don't see a page showing the calculations for the 1971 DZ so I have nothing that tells me how right or wrong they are or how they might apply to the data for a jump further south. You say "you know" it's good enough. Well okay. I wouldn't hire you as a subcontract to do the calcs on the jump so I'm not sure why your opinion is good. I'm not even sure you know what calcs were behind the original 1971 map. You're just looking at the result, and maybe some names on who produced it and saying "must be good" (edit) Heck, by way of "example" we can't agree on whether there's a one minute error on the radar ticks on the flight path. That's a huge error in possible data processing, and is evidence that no results from 1971 should be taken at face value. -------------------------------------------------- Reply> Ckret's comment is correct. Small erorrs at beginning >>>> large errors downstream. Doesnt require special skills to see that. Somebody didn't keep it simple so it became a labyrinth quick. I have always said Cooper expected that. It was one of his primary tools in the hijacking and it doesnt take Einstein to see that. By 1980 I think a lot of people just wanted this to go away, then the money turns up. That does not mean the money surfaced so it wouldnt go away. That means it hadnt gone away from the beginning. It's no demerit for the FBI or anyone else. It's just the way it is. A lot of things conspire to make this a labyrinth and a mystery. Basic facts got lost forever. Georger

uhh...oh yeah, forgot...no one building rockets here...[garage door closes quickly] Reply> I built a bird house once, and it worked!

----------------------------------------------------- Reply> in order for something to "oscillate" you have to have some force(s) being applied where a sympathetic frequency is set up. The logical force is the wind, or cross winds. The logical event is the stairs extending into the air stream. But this happens at about 20:12 precisely when they make a left hand turn in the approach to BTGVOR, which changes the angle of the aircraft relative to the wind(s). So, it is not required that the stairs are being extended further, only that the flight angle of the (plane with stairs) changes with respect to the airstream. Also there is nothing in the transcript which says the oscillations increased or decreased after they began or if they went away? prior to the bump? The test which confirmed the bump also confirmed oscilaltions prior to the bump? And what exactly was "oscillating" Just an observation - Georger[/reply You are applying too much science, over overanalyzing, sometimes the answers are simple. From putting everything together, the crew was referencing the cabin pressure gauge when the statement of “oscillation” was made. Not that they were feeling an oscillation in the aircraft. Remember; in another log created at the same time as the one reporting oscillations the word used was “fluctuations.” Because the crew always referenced the bump as a pressure change it would make since that prior to the large “Pressure Event,” there were small events leading up. Now go back and get you’re Cooper “on.” You are gingerly walking down the air stairs because you have never done this before. With each step you take caution, take a step and see what happens, take a step and see what happens. As you are doing this, the cabin pressure gauge in the cockpit starts to fluctuate. The engineer notices this and reports the anomaly to ops, these fluctuations continue for a few minutes as you figure things out. Once you’re set you jump and the stairs come back to the body of the plane, causing the pressure event known as “the bump.” It is noticeable but not dramatic, the needle instantly spikes, they notice the change in their ears, things calm quickly. Because the small fluctuations continue (the stairs are still open to about 15 degrees) nothing is reported they just assume this is a continuation of what they have already reported. But they do take note, “wonder if he just jumped?” As they wonder this they notice they are just north of the Portland suburbs. I think the individual typing the teletype was being fed info from the guy keeping the hand written log. When the guy keeping the handwritten log said, “they are reporting some type of fluctuations in the cabin pressure; they said the gauge is bouncing.” The teletype operator then typed “oscillations” his words not the crews. Amazing how small, even seeming harmless interpretations can cause large fluctuations or oscillations in history. Good post. Thanks Ckret! Georger

----------------------------------------------------- Reply> in order for something to "oscillate" you have to have some force(s) being applied where a sympathetic frequency is set up. The logical force is the wind, or cross winds. The logical event is the stairs extending into the air stream. But this happens at about 20:12 precisely when they make a left hand turn in the approach to BTGVOR, which changes the angle of the aircraft relative to the wind(s). So, it is not required that the stairs are being extended further, only that the flight angle of the (plane with stairs) changes with respect to the airstream. Also there is nothing in the transcript which says the oscillations increased or decreased after they began or if they went away? prior to the bump? The test which confirmed the bump also confirmed oscilaltions prior to the bump? And what exactly was "oscillating" Just an observation - Georger

well, ckret's latest post makes it cloudier than even the two page report we have, says. Paul Soderlind makes sense. We've never had confirmation of his role(s)...for instance the most intriguing one was Tosaw's claim that Soderlind flew the test drop plane. (Tosaw provides enough other details on the test flight (which I've posted) that I believe it). Soderlind retired from Northwest in 1973. (mild atrial fibrillation affected flying aspect of career) Also, the Northwest Chief Meteorologist I think has been mentioned in terms of providing data. That would have been Dan Sowa?, who worked closely with Soderlind. I still don't believe there was a committee, and I think Ckret's latest claims are unsupported. If Ckret has more pages that outline how the drop zone was calculated, that would be nice to have. I'm not sure what Ckret is reading for his latest post. The two page transcript clearly states what data was used, and it's signed by one person, apparently from Northwest. Reply, There are very few things I know for a fact from my own personal knowledge but I do know Boeing was brought into the mix by NWA almost immediately - the transcript mentions some of this. I have no problem with Ckret's account. Its new.

QuoteThis is a minor issue, and doesn't add anything new, but I wanted to put a point on it, since it changes my perception of how the search went down. I was just rereading the partial transcript Ckret provided that described how the DZ was predicted. Looking at the way it was written, and the redacted signature that says "Northwest Airlines", I've suddenly realized that it apparently wasn't the FBI or the USAF that predicted the DZ. Someone at Northwest Airlines did. And not a committee. Some single person? I thought we decided Soderlind played a role. Georger

Ckret: He may have taken the plane from Seattle to Portland and have left a car in Seattle - it would not have been abandoned. This would account for the SEA-TAC stub. It was a simple thing to have someone else go pick his car up at the airport - all you got was a stub and you paid as you go out - no one asked for Identification or registration. Did the FBI run a check on EVERY car in the SEA-TAC parking lot? Just because he parked there doesn't mean he abandoned the car...also the car may not have belonged to him, but register to another party. So we have the accomplica angle again. But ... look I don't know for sure but especially in pre computerized days - surely you normally had to hand in the ticket stub, otherwise how could they be sure that the takings they had matched what they should have been? In other words I still think that the ticket stub, if it existed, implies an abandoned car somewhere. On the other hand your argument about taking the plane from Seattle to Portland.. well extend that logic and any parking stub from anywhere in the US that is near an airport becomes a possibility. And, furthermore, IF he did indeed do that (fly from Seattle) - how does this square up with the hotel in Portland? Oh - it doesn't. More straws being clutched at? Which storyline exactly are we meant to go with? Reply: well, the boy got to PDX somehow, walked in, drove in, flew in, dropped from the sky, came up from under ground... in a previous discussion with Ckret I seem to recall him saying the arrival and hotel-motel angle was covered 'thoroughly' and still nothing. Somebody saw something whether they realised it or not, but they didn't report anything? There we go again - city people. Country people notice everything. City people ignore much and what they do see they may keep to themselves. I mean think about this. One guy is sitting alone at the back of the plane, sometimes with a stew at his side, special attention? Who is this guy? A VIP, somebody sick, and it goes on for several hours and nobody pays any attention? (and the guy tells Tina/Flo he doesnt want the passengers alerted?) It may make sense to an urban person but it makes no sense to me - Snow dug out the fact the 3:00pm flight itself was a late addition, not a a regular flight. Somebody approved and added the flight. Either Cooper taking that flight was dumb luck and it did not matter (to him) which flight he took, or he learned of the flight and selected it on purpose. Maybe he is the one who added the flight or was in some close proximity to learn about the flight's existence. That particular flight fit his whole timeline for an escape under cover of darkness, the very evening before Thanksgiving when people would be off guard and things would be shut down. (It's a water hole hunting scenario. You lay in wait and watch and get ready and then you spring. You use circumstances to enable the kill. This is textbook stuff ). That's how I see it from my bias. Georger Cooper found out

Ckret: He may have taken the plane from Seattle to Portland and have left a car in Seattle - it would not have been abandoned. This would account for the SEA-TAC stub. It was a simple thing to have someone else go pick his car up at the airport - all you got was a stub and you paid as you go out - no one asked for Identification or registration. Did the FBI run a check on EVERY car in the SEA-TAC parking lot? Just because he parked there doesn't mean he abandoned the car...also the car may not have belonged to him, but register to another party. Glad to see you're OK. Georger

Reply> reading through it all, you guys are too much! Pills, beer, dogs, babies, and not one Holstein in the whole lot! No cyotes, wolves or eagles or hawks circling above either. City people with nothing but ads on the tv! That's no way to live, folks. I saw a small black bear on the way home tonight - called it in but somebody had already reported it after their garbage cans got looted. Well anyway, Im thinking wind shears tonight and wondering what its like to parachute through that? You're going first one direction and then rather suddenly another? Now if a small bear was to parachute? Gotta leave that beer alone. Georger

Sorry about posting with a pill in me - the posts make no sense at all and the next day is too late to correct the errors. From now on if I need to take one of those - I am going to not only turn the computer off - I am going to disconnect the power and the back-up. It would be an effort for me to connect it back with a pill in me. -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Reply> Jo, I want you to take this seriously. When was the last time you saw a doctor and had your blood pressure checked? This has nothing to do with this forum. Please take this seriously. I would rather by wrong than not say what I think. Georger

Wait - wait (sorry I am a bit slow - must also claim non compis mentis a bit here - severe lack of sleep due to newborn baby Parking at SeaTac. The guy with the old parking tickets hasnt replied - probably stuck in a voting line. But, from a few things he says and from a search on the internet it appears all parking at SeaTac going clear back to 1970 was handled by private companies? I mean the airport itself had no parking. Various parking lots were managed by private companies. It was a big airport even in 1971 - so, a parking stub might reflect the com-pany that issued it. G.

Georger: What is this special fingerprint technic that Snowmman spoke of - I do not remember it being mentioned in the forum. Reply> Here you go Jo. http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2006/1208-csi_xray_fingerprints.htm

Duane had a son! I didn' know that, Hell, I been looking a daughter all these yrs. His name was Dan - duh? but then I am just a crazy fool rambling on her sleeping pill. ------------------------------------------------ Reply> So what you are saying is Duane used his son's name DAN when giving the name DAN COOPER at Northwest's ticket counter? What State was Duane & his wife and family living in in 1971? And was his mother's family name COOPER? Georger

FOR GODS SAKE MAN DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH - Reply> Nope, Im a dope. I had to repeat Kinderfarm. Georger

While we spar and speculate and create incoherent NOISE... Meanwhile, back in the BAT CAVE, Georger and his dream team of scientists are running mass spectrometers, sequencers, PCR machines, and gas chromatographs doing real science to detect SIGNALS. 377 Yepper. Frankenstein is on the move. Finally getting some personal time and came up with: http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2006/1208-csi_xray_fingerprints.htm Check it out. Key here is to lite up the old print and excite its atoms which in turn resonate at their elemental frequencies and, you have a nice clean image of 'the crap the guy had on his hands etc' and even the chemistry of the guy. Dont even have to have a print, just a smudge. If the guy was eating chocolate fudge, or whatever, the residue is going to be in the prints. Old dried up prints can be treated in a similar way and still lite up even though years old. Prints contain enzymes, proteins.... if a guy happened to have a certain disease well thats a dead give-away from the chemistry of the prints. If he was on medication, the same thing... Recall Cooper's brown paper bag. What was in it? Maybe a modern MXRF test of the old prints would shed some light. Wanna see an example? - attached. Next thing we're going to do is clone Cooper and ask him a few questions, then send him to Jo for parachute training. . . Georger

Reply> I can go with that! Just a hint that there is no such thing as just finger prints, ala Jo. What there is is transference. Forget the grooves and lands and hills and vallies, and prominences and praetoria too, and all the rest of that structural BS ... what you have is chemistry and even dna on a surface. Whatever the guy was doing, its in the print too. So class, let's say this all together - NANO- meter. Nano. One more time, NAH-No. Back to your regular program. Symba Bill? Tarzan says: "get down Symba". Woops I mean Jo! Georger