georger

Many soldiers went through Alaska on their way to Nam. I was in the Anchorage airport in 1969. There were soldier in jungle fatiques, everywhere you looked. I often wondered how many of them made it back.... Yours is an interesting line of thought. Alaska comes up in the transcripts as a possible direction Cooper wants to go ... Scott and others mention it briefly. Who came up with 'Alaska'? Why was 'Alaska'? Because all hijackers want to go to AK? Because AK offers wilderness for a jump? What brought Alaska into the mix? Was it a military connection somebody thought applied and if so why? Or is it just one more stereotype being applied by authorities who dont know Cooper at all? Cooper then asks for Mexico City! The total opposite of Alaska in direction. (kind of funny or is it?). Alaska seems to fit in a larger pattern of stereotyping with Cooper the real person doing almost the exact opposite of what "authorities" think Cooper is going to do, would do, or should do. It is almost as if these people were stuck in a rut of assumptions none of which turn out to be true, vs. simply riding with events and dealing with an actual hijacker in real time. This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach ....... Rataczack in contrast just keeps working at his job saying little (that we know) but in the end Rat is the one with the most accurate testimony along with Tina. This whole event is full of 'Alaskas' which turn out to be wrong projections from corporate institutional stereotypical thinking and projecting. If you follow the same pattern, the real Cooper probably had nothing to do with Alaska, and Alaska must represent the very opposite of who Cooper was and what he was about... (just like they did figure out after the fact his bomb was a fake, but too late to matter). Did Cooper do something or say something to make them think Alaska as their first choice for his destination? Georger

Could "greasy" and "oddly black" descriptions be consistent with a cheap wig/hairpiece? Now THAT would surely have blown off during the jump. A bald guy walking around that night might not have aroused suspicion since he would not match the hijacker's description. Logic would dictate some sort of disguise beyond the sunglasses. A wig would be ideal if you were balding. Easily removed and instant transformation into someone who would not match the suspect's description. Would Cooper have been crazy enough to use no disguise other than the shades? The Cooper sketch showed up in newspapers and magazines all around the world and that was forseeable. If you were Cooper returning to your prior life you would not want to match any sketches of the suspect. You wouldn't want a Beatles wig that screamed fake. A high hairline wig/hairpiece would be ideal. 377 been over this a thousand times and Ckret has posted to these points - read past posts.

Reply> we are looking for someone who didnt necessarily have hands-on experience with the 727. The problem with cargo person is he would have known how to open the door. (Just like the FBI figured out the bomb was a fake, but not in time to matter. It comes down to very simple facts). Cooper is a deranged person. Not a high functioning engineer or tech type. He may be somebody on the periphery of experience with the 727 and its history and use. His real skills are on the parachuting end by his performance and witness statements.. and that experience may not be too great. Georger

Very interesting Snowmman. Good job. You dig deep every time, finding the veins of gold that I so often miss in my superficial Googling. This is the first solid info I have seen on who ordered the airdrop capability mods on 727s and I have been looking for a long time. The article mentions an enlarged exit which raises an interesting issue. Even if Cooper knew that the Boeing modified 727s could do airdrops, would that also mean that an unmodified passenger 727 could also do it? Might there be a door interlock that was disabled for the airdrop mod? To me that points back to Cooper having access to some Boeing info. I think he KNEW FOR SURE that the passenger 727 could be jumped. Just knowing that modifed Air America 727s could do it wouldn't be enough. If he had a good connection to Boeing info he'd know that the mods (enlarged exit, etc) were not essential for airdrop capability but just enhanced it. Reply> Well, KNOWING IT and DOING IT were obviously two different things then, for Cooper. He couldnt even get he stairs down! This indicates he had had lots of practice. Somewhere in your broad theorising you need to filter in a few hard facts of this case, maybe?. Georger

"He who asks questions only trains himself in asking questions" (Loa Tse)

But your guns are pointed the wrong way! The direction of flow has changed.

Its good work on your part no matter how you cut it - not that long ago "authorities" were say: "ah no, never happened . . . . " in true Jo'esque style. It bolsters the contention that any semi number of candidates could have known the 727 was a hijack opportunity. Georger Well now, the whole skydiving history question of "who was the first to jump a 727" is thrown up in the air. And the bragging rights for static lining a 727 too! I wonder if there were more jumps. It's not clear if all that footage was shot on one flight. I was thinking they wouldn't dump a full row of pallets, and two jumpers, on the very first test, would they? Oh, I found a website where a guy has a copy of the legal paper that John Willheim Productions signed with Air America to start work on the film. It was from 1969. All of the film seems consistent quaility, so I suspect it was all filmed after '69, the date of the paperwork. So it makes sense that what Leeker said is true: the filming was done somewhere in '70/'71. My random reading with morning coffee, stuff from the amazing dallas collection which we've mined before. This first url is for all the William M. Leary papers...accounts of Air America in Laos. Amazing details http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/aamnote.htm (this is accounts of spec ops in Laos '69-'73) http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/specop75.pdf Leary has names and talks about the personalities and interplay of individuals. It really adds depth to the history.

This is what I looked for - for yrs. I had been told about it, but had no proof it was actually done - now, you found it. I was only able to watch it in second segments. Does anyone know how I can get it on a disk or whatever in order to view it like it is supposed to be viewed. I have only dial-up. Air America planes had a connection to JMWave (reported to be a covert cover) out of Florida. JMWave bought some of the planes. Two companies who had Weber on their payroll at that time and prior to that as Collins were part of JMWave.? Go research JMWave and you will find they bought Air American planes in the 60's and early 70's. JMWave was reportedly related to various covert actions in Cuba and other countries. There was also a reported drug connection. I know you guys think I am crazy but this clip took me right back to where I was yrs ago and all it got me was 12 yrs of being ridiculed and made fun of and called delusional....BUT, I didn't have the clip - just the information that it had been done and Duane's involvement with these companies. These Insurance companies have alway been a puzzled me because Ex-cons cannot be licensed insurance agents. I met many individual who worked for these companies when Duane did - and I have since 1996 found that four of whom Duane had a close association with are also ex-cons. Most agents with these companies were and are very legitimate - but for some reason it seemed to be a easy place for ex-cons to find employment. I do seem to recall Jo insisting that there had been early 727 jumps. I remember questioning her proof. Jo, how did you obtain that info? I had my strong doubts, but you were right. I expected Dr. Lesser to confirm that the Air America 727 jump stories were urban myth, but SURPRISE: he links me to FILM OF THE JUMPS!!!! JM Wave appears to be entwined in all sorts of spook stuff. Doesn't mean Duane was Cooper but it does add some possibilities that Duane may have been exposed to some covert ops guys. Jo, you make a big deal about felons being banned from insurance jobs. Duane was a con man. Isn't it far more likely that he evaded detection of his convictions rather than being granted a free felon pass by higher ups? I have seen it done by flipping a number pair on a social security number and misspelling one letter in a last name. If caught you claim "mistake or typo". If not caught, you got the job. Back in the pre Internet days it was easy to hide criminal records in routine employment situations. Maybe word spread among cons about places that were lax in checking backgrounds. I just cannot see an insurance company intentionally recruiting cons. 377 Do you know what a "cult" is?

No. Is it available online? 377 TV? what's TV? Looks like something was on this morning on Discovery Channel? Is this a new flick? Dec 15, 11:00 am (60 minutes) D.B. Cooper TV-PG, CC A Hollywood screenwriter couldn't have better scripted D.B. Cooper's parachuted jump strapped with a stolen $200,000 from Northwest Airlines 727 in 1971. With sophisticated forensic techniques, new light is shed on this dark night of a criminal vanisher. In 2004, Discovery had this flick with Jo: "Flight From Justice: The Story of D.B. Cooper." Not only will Jo Weber be interviewed on the show, producers say FBI investigators will share their theories on who hijacked that plane nearly 33 years ago. That show was reviewed here: http://www.tv.com/the-fbi-files/flight-from-justice-the-story-of-d.b.-cooper/episode/535955/reviews.html?review_id=90577&flag=&tag=reviews;episode;continue;1 Its obvious. What the world needs and wants, is a Jo Weber DB Cooper doll! Book writers could put the Jo Weber doll in with their books! Networks could sell the Jo Weber DB Cooper doll! Just imagine. Out of every 60 mins of programming CNN could market its Jo Weber doll for 45 minutes. Jo would be a billionaire. Sluggo would be a millionaire managing Jo's affairs. Geof Gray cold get the first 10,000 certified dolls to sell with his book! Galen Cook could be denied any dolls to sell. Thats it! The Jo Weber DB Cooper doll. You heard it first here(@)Georger Georger copywrite@12-16-08

Maybe a greeter at WalMart. He would only be 80-90. Georger

Things are down for the Holidays. People have gone many directions. Ckret has been on vacation. I expect things to resume after the Holidays. Happy Holidays to all - Georger

Good progress thanks to 377 and you! Congrats.. Georger

You might want to pursue drops over Laos and Cambodia. Georger

Indeed! Nothing abominable about our Snowmman... when he is in a good mood. Pre Cooper 727 jump evidence has definitely put our Snowmman in a good mood. 377 Im rather serious in saying Cooper could have brokered the idea of jumping from a 727 from a number of possible sources, including his own re- invention of the wheel (his own idea born on the spur of the obvious). But, it was common knowledge and common myth that one cold bail from and drop cargo out of a 727. I have not run across any vet with experience who didnt know that or think it, based on something. In fact the knowledge or myth is so wide spread I have thought our discussing it is rather silly. I could be done, and was done as a fact, easily. (I would not even be surprised to find out engineers at Boeing designed the plane so cargo drop could be done! wooops am I revealing something. Yes, I do know a retired Boeing enginner who worked on the Cooper vane project). So, we have proved you can jump out the back of a 727. Melly Clistmas! Georger

4, 5, 6, 7? potentially. Forgot one maybe two more. 8? Unreal.

225-235 degrees was already established.

well the transcripts imply boxes were sent out, possibly during some testing. Reply> I agree. The transcripts do imply boxes could be sent out the back of a 727 - Boeing tests. Obviously they had done it. If the military wished to know if you could make ice cream in a 727, Im sure tests were done (to sell the plane). In addition, every Vietnam vet Ive ever talked to say yes without pause - "oh sure. The 727 was used to make drops of cargo". That we cant find it confirmed on the Internet may say more about the Internet than about actual facts of Vietnam and the 727. The Internet is funny that way. Its strange what gets Google-life and what does not. The 727 may not have been a preferred drop vehicle but that does not mean it wasn't done. The greater issue is: it could be done! That is all that is required in this case. Obviously people thought it could be done, even the manufacturers. So Cooper comes along and does it. Now all doubt is removed. It can be done. It happened. This satisfies the "Labrys Axiomatic Condition". It's no longer a rough unbounded outline but a specific fact. Georger

Obviously it was rational to him on some level or he planned to die. I seriously doubt we are looking at some code of bushido here, except as he said: "I have a grudge". But not with the airlines, he said. So with who? Who or what, was his focus? Who or what would be harmed by his action? Was this a personal crime or social crime? Without his statement to Tina about a "grudge" I would not pursue this direction but take his actions in the vein Ckret seems to endorse. ??? Georger

Reply> The below caught my attention several days ago, as it applies to Grudge: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/12/oregon.bank.bomb/index.html December 13, 2008 -- Updated 0757 GMT (1557 HKT) (CNN) -- A bomb exploded at a Woodburn, Oregon, bank branch early Friday evening, killing a police officer and injuring the town's police chief and a state bomb technician, Oregon State Police said. Woodburn Police Chief Scott Russell was listed in critical condition at Oregon Health and Science University Hospital, according to hospital spokeswoman Christine Decker. (snip) People know the banksters are the ones behind this financial collapse - and yet out super-corrupt congress just gave them trillions of dollars!!! Hell yes people are mad. Georger

So... you're accepting that when there are more variables than known quantities all you can do is work for a simple equation that describes relationships. You guys have worked hard to define boundries but that's all you have. Reply} we know he was missing one eye and had a peg leg. what have you got?

First some corrections need to be made in the post that was done regarding several things that are inaccurate. Also he will need to go over with me what scans he wants to use - he has many and more I was supposed to send but I got them all mixed up with some other things. As far as Knuetson - or however that name is spelled...as Snowmman pointed out I don't know exactly what it was, but it was something like that - it could have been Newton or Newston - almost any variation of that sound. The only way to really know is to go to Dollars Corner and search the property records for 1944- 1971....also anyone owning or running a business in the area - I assume they had to have a license. As I said before if someone lives in that area and wants to do the research I will pay for you to do it. Doesn't anyone know the name of the Boeing man who was investigated in Portland as having been a suspect? Not the one Swomman mentioned (the genius). This man lived in West Portland which would be where Duane mentioned "I used to know a man who lived over there" . At that time we were in the area of Wintler Park, but Not in the park. He was pointing West. At the spot we went to on the Vancouver side the bank of the river was relative steep in 1979 with trees that were not more than 10 to 20 yrs old, plus lots of scrub trees (very young ones). If you go west to Wintler Park the banks were not steep at all. There was a low incline through out the park, but just East of there the elevation of the bank climbs. When I went back in 2001 new home had been built along the river banks I believed Duane and I were in 1979. I was told there was another area that you had to go back up on Evergreen and then go back to the River just East of that point that I did not ask the driver to take me to - perhaps I should have. I was told the two site had everything I described to the "Angel Udell" and the "River Lady". Would have been interesting to see if I was able to see the airport tower from the other location - then I would know which one it was. The place Duane took me too - trees and a slight bend obsured the tower, but he told me that it was there. I never knew where the tower was on the maps - I have been shown.[/reply Reply]: Did it ever dawn on you to ask your husband: "Why are we here"? Why would a husband drag his (new) wife out to a place like this without explaining why! How were the mosquitos?

Okay…… [Sluggo taking a deep breath] At the expense of (once again) being accused of being secretive (or conspiratory), just think about your statement. Okay…. Thought about it? Jo, did not harrang the FBI (initially). I’m not talking about post 2003. If the FBI thought for 13 years (it was really only 7) that there might have been (an element of) truth in Jo’s story, isn’t that prima fascia evidence that there was, at the minimum, something that held their interest? Jo went to Himmelsbach on Doug Pasternak’s suggestion. Himmelsbach “greased the wheels” for Jo to make official contact with the Bureau in 2000. The Bureau came and got personal items (for DNA analysis) in April, 2003 and considered Duane a viable suspect until 2007, after the DNA didn’t match the DNA from 4 unknown individuals on a tie assumed to be left by Cooper and not handled with a “Chain of Custody” consistent with DNA sampling (from 1971 – 2003). I guarantee that the Bureau didn’t “want to know the truth about her husband”. They wanted to close NORJAK. I have a lot more to say…. But it’s late here (CST) and I’m going to bed. Try this, ask Jo for permission to allow me to scan some of the data I have about Duane and post it here. If she says yes, then you can make an informed decision about the validity of her claims. Don’t misunderstand me … I don’t think you will come to the same conclusion as Jo, but I think you will find it interesting. More in an e-mail tomorrow… Orange1 The term “unpublished” was not meant to imply a conspiracy or “special secrecy”. That area was then (as now) a relatively populated area. The FBI would not have wanted the public pouring over private property looking for $200,000. Remember this was prior to the Ingram find. I should have explained better, but it was a long post and I was trying to be brief. I think we can assume that in all cases, they didn’t find anything. Sluggo_Monster [Out] Sluggo, it is all anecdotal evidence. Not hard evidence. You can't speak for the Bureau. That they kept Weber on file until 2007 could have been due to a thousand different reasons - it doesnt even mean he was viable, just still on file active. Maybe they closed out 50 people that year. I dont know and you dont know either (Im guessing). I'm not going to speak for the FBI or try to second guess them. I frankly have too much respect for them for that, so call that my bias. Sure. There are many coincidences. Many uncanny coincidences from the current perspective. Perspectives change! How many candidates have there been to date? All had some level of coincidence or association going for them. That is what defines a candidate. Weber seems to have many coincidences in his favour, all anecdotal with not one piece of hard physical evidence except for rumors of hard evidence. There is just so much I can do, Sluggo. Unless God drops something on me so I can do more I cannot do more. Even then I am not sure I could do more. This is bigger than all of us. This thing is damnd near Biblical and quite frankly from a management level I can understand why some people might want it to go away. Its a resource eater! I play in the band and I can only play the music Im given. I dont direct the band.