georger

Probably because the rescue costs are too high? What would you do with an F14? You cant even afford the gas. I know, you have an answer... maybe try for a submarine and go looking for Coopper with Tosaw! G.

Well Jo, some of us do research. Georger It's not research if you don't post a source. but whatever. This is just a forum. Would you rather I had said nothing? I do what I can with the little I have and Im grateful for the little I have. Sometimes a little is enough. Nobody here posts all of their "sources" including you. But it will all come clear in time. And its a good foundation for the future. Ive given you a cogent line of thought. Take it or forget it. Thanks, Georger

A rat? Then follow your own tail? You are one of the people who said you did not believe the Ingram story and cited reasons why. Your own citations were clues you failed or werent interested in following up on. You moved ahead with other matters and dropped the Ingram matter. I didnt. Therein is the difference. Im sorry! G.

The soggy separation question i agree sounds suspect. ----------------------------------------------------- Reply: Suspect how? Maybe they baked it in the oven ? Are you saying they found dry bills? The bulk of evidence is against that. I dont think we can quibble too much about something we dont have any "insight" into. Whatever the facts of how the Ingrams handled the money, or how the FBI handled it, the auction firm is "still" separating frgaments from the few bills turned back to Brian years later. So the word "wet" and "bonded" seems to be in the picture. The nature and extent of the bonding is another matter. The money had obviously sat in nature for some time. One of the original explanations for "wet" was "recent snow melt". But Christal Ingram's scenario offers another explanation, ie. "near the water". The position of the money on the bar may correlate with the process that deposited it, and the time. Notice the changes in the beachline over time - attached. (Notice changes in the discharge end of Catapillar island). The photos presented thus far of the money show clearly that some of the money separated rather cleanly, even after its original condition when found. You can draw your own conclusions from that but obviously finding bills with such integrity goes more to the conditions these bills were subjected to over time, than anything the Ingrams did in separting them. We don't know, for example, the ratio of fragments to whole bills. If the ratio is 1000:1 then we know something important. G.

Well Jo, some of us do research. Georger

Yeah it's interesting if they were "representative" or not. From what we've seen, the analysis should have covered top/bottom/middle bills. The top and bottom would be most important. What I don't understand: If the bundle was soggy, how did they separate bills in the kitchen so quickly? Wet bills don't separate. You might be able to separate chunks, but not an individual bill? Even after drying it might be difficult. And why would anyone be eager to have just a "souvenir" ..i.e. one bill. I could see divying up the loot equally...But why hand out small numbers. Isn't it likely that they suspected D.B. Cooper money right away, and they were mulling over just what to do for max gain, during the time interval? I guess I don't buy this story that they didn't think of Cooper till he went to work. Now what we really don't know is whether there were more than 3 bundles at Tena Bar. The 12 mini-bundles the FBI showed, (the first money) seemed plausibly a breakup of 3 original bundles. The future court case seemed to only talk about $6000 or so. So are the extra bills just small amounts, and the story of 3 bundles etc still basically correct, in terms of quantity? I have wondered the very same thoughts - Souveniers of what? When did they decide to keep "souveniers", the evening of the 10th? More likely the evening of the 11th after the Cooper connection had been made and before any money is turned in. If that is the case then they all are culpable Crystal included. And that is interesting because why should Crystal get anything unless it is a joint find? If it was the evening of the 11th then they have tocome back together and discuss this, to dole out dividends. But things definately change beteen the Ingrams by the morning of the 13th, after the press conference the 12th. Crystal is now willing to go out on her own and turn in her own "souveniers" and tell an independent story that potentially can have Harold and Patricia in trouble. What if Crystal had stayed silent? What then? There is nothing to suggest hat Harold and Patricia would have changed their story or confessed to not turning in all the money. I dont have any evidence the FBI talked to Harold or Patricia after the 13th! (Press people tried to but were turned away). There is no evidence (I know of) that Harold or Patricia did anything to change their story after the 13th until finally on the 20th Patricia surfaced and contacted several media people iquiring if they knew anything about a "reward" the FBI was going to give to Brian! She then called the FBI and asked them if Brian was going to get an award and is told "no". She then is coy and asks if Crystal Ingram has made contact with the FBI and is told "yes!". (She already knows the answer!) She moves on and asks if Crystal turned in more money (as if checking up on Crystal!), and is told "yes". She then offers an explaination saying they kept the extra money by mistake, as "souveniers" the Ingrams thought nobody would care about . . . ". (Its total BS on Patrica's part). Again, there appears to be no evidence the FBI had made any attempt to talk to the Harold or Pat after Crystal surfaced ... even after the glorious press confernence debut. (30 minutes of fame and then dropped like a rock). And by all accounts, the FBI dropped the whole thing at that point. As for the bills, I think even a forensic specialist would have had difficulty separating the bills, in a lab. Techniques should have been used. You can only imagine what must have gone on on the kitchen table. There is also no mention of the Ingrams turning in fragments per se. The Ingrams must still have them even after the Court settlement. And what did the FBI do to separate bills once it had the bundles? The auction people are still separating fragments from the wad of bills Brian gave to them! What has the insurance company done with their bills and what analysis, if any, have they performed. Lots of still unanswered qustions - One thing I can say: Its too bad they didnt bring the Smithsonian into this. This might have gone a different better direction - (edit) and if you add up all of the fragments in diffrent places, including those recovered during the excavation, how much money was there at Tina Bar? More than any $5800. Georger

Reply> This I do know. The FBI interviewed Crystal three times after she went public on Feb 13th (the morning after the Ingram-Himmelsbach press conference on the 12th). They interviewed Crystal on the 13th, the 14th the day she brought more bills in, and later on the 19th. If Crystal had not called Himmelsbach she very likely would have been bypassed completely. Himmeslbach had already rushed and given his press conference. Crystal gained nothing by any of this and it only further isolated her and her daughter from the rest of the Ingrams (Harold, Patricia, David...). Patricia and Harold were very angry because it attacked their credibility. Apparently, things moved so quickly on the 12th that Harold/Patricia did not communicate with Crystal before the press conference at 3:00pm was already happening. Harold & Patricia had gone in and turned in their money to H in the morning, and H then scheduled (or already had scheduled!) a press conference for 3:00pm. It seems strange Harold and Pat wouldnot have called Crystal and told her what was going on ... ? It appears Crystal was blinded sided. The next thing she knows a press conference has been held, Harold and Pat and Brian are famous and have given their story, and she (Crystal) and Denise have been left out completely - not even talked to. Who knows what transpired between Crystal and Harold and Pat the evening of the 12th. But, Crystal goes public first thing the next morning and winds up talking to Himmelsbach ... with Harold and Patricia suddenly silent. Crystal meets with Harold and Pat the evening of the 13th and gets their extra bills and then meets with 'H' the next morning (14th) and turns over the money to 'H' and is interviewed. One thing I have not mentioned is these four bills turned in by Crystal were sent in for analysis and became the basis for a report about the nature of the money found at Tina Bar. I believe, that things moved so quickly on the 12th with the focus on Harold and Patricia, that Crystal was bypassed. (Why Tosaw would take Harold and Patricia's side later, only Tosaw can answer). The money was wet when found. A limp stack of mushed together bills. If the money was just off the shoreline that condition is explainable - if the money was further up the bank the wetness is less explainable, potentially. Crystal's story seems totally consistent. Harold and Patricia's story seems less consistent and more tainted by greed. But, we all know there was more money on the bar than $5800. The question is how much more. Let me just drop this for discussion. PS* BTW, I have not read anything by Denise Ingram, or an interview with her about any of this.... I would like to if there is something out there? Georger

The Unamed adult was whoever Harold and Pat were staying with at the time, who helped separate and dry the money when Harold, Pat, Brian, Crystal, and Denise got back from Tina Bar. Himmlesbach did not need to rush to a press conference on Feb12th, before all of the facts were in and all of the principles had been interviewed. The reason this story is important is, it directly affects the nature of the money found at Tina Bar and its history in terms of Cooper bailing and landing. We already now there was more, perhaps much more, than $5800 at Tina Bar. If Crystal Ingram's account is true, that affects the whole nature and history of the money found at Tina Bar. (That is a issue far greater than Brian Ingram and his award). G.

QuoteWhere the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? Reply> Let me answer this directly. She turned in one bill each from Harold, Pat, herself, and a fourth adult unamed, each bill kept as a souvenier. She turned in these bills on Feb 14th, 1980 after calling the media and the FBI on Feb 13th with her version of the discovery at T_Bar. This followed the FBI- Ingram surprise Press Conference televised on Feb 12th which evidently caught Crystal Ingram by surprise. Crystal was of course omitted from this surprise Press Conference the afternoon of the 12th. Harold and Patricia had just turned in their money to the FBI that morning. Himmelsbach moved too quickly, as usual. He didnt even have the full story. He hadnt interviewed Crystal, or checked out Harold and Patricia, but just took everything Harold and Patricia said as true. It blind-sided Crystal who is suddenly standing watching Harold and Patricia giving a press conference, when she knows not all of the money has been turned in and she has a different account of how and where the money was found!. Crystal called the FBI the very next day, the 13th, to try and straightened matters out. Then she had to explain to Harold and Patricia: "The FBI wants ALL the money!" because I called them and told them the truth! Harold and Patrica were extremely angry but gave their remaining bills to Crystal who took them to the FBI. Then Harold and Patricia stayed silent until the 20th. Crystal contacted the press again on Feb 19th after the FBI interviewed her a second time earlier in the day. Immediately, on the 20th, Patricia called the FBI to inquire if Crystal was talking to the FBI, and if Crystal had in fact returned four extra bills, and if Brian was going to get a reward! Patricia then turned around and called a radio station complaining the FBI was not going to give Brian (or Harold and Pat) a reward which they were due. Those are the facts as I think they are - G.

There are no facts in your world - only searches. G.

What year is he talking about? 1980? 1971? Or 104BC?

Reply> This might have merit. But how do you get the money to Tina Bar in the "not moved very far" condition Tosaw cites? There is a flight path to consider. Why should Tosaw know more than the FBI does? Tosaw hasnt found squat! G.

Sorry.Now you have me confused. What does DAVID Ingram have to do with this? David has never made any claim on this money nor said he was even there. G. :) Exactly. That's why we would suspect him. I'm using Jo logic. Until you can prove someone's not guilty, you assume they are. Actually just throwing out the David thing because it was something I was musing about back in May, and the recent conversation just stirred it up again. I had been trying to work out a list of who was at Tina Bar. You're saying David wasn't? Just the people you mentioned? or are you not sure of the complete list either? whatever -

Sorry.Now you have me confused. What does DAVID Ingram have to do with this? David has never made any claim on this money nor said he was even there. G.

QuoteWhere the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? REPLY> Crystal and Denise were there! Crystal says it was Denise dug up the money partially then Brian started helping and finished it, while calling to his dad ... Crystal's account is very clear. The chronology of the events after the find; who said and did what, and when, is very clear. If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Reply> They took the money back to where Harold and Pat were living and separated the bundles on the kitchen table, to dry and separate the bundles. It was then or later than each took some before any money was turned over to the FBI.

amazing, Tosaw's involvement. Did he get some bills? and whose account of the location of the find was taken as the best or most truthful account, Harold's or Crystals? Crystal said "next to the river" ... and Tosaw is out immediately dragging the river right off Tina Bar, while also helping Brian get the money! I guess you work both sides of the river at once? G.

I can't find any Market St. in Vancouver. Reply> There is a 1500 market st in Portland. I dont know what to make of this. G.

I can't find any Market St. in Vancouver. HAROLD DWAYNE INGRAM 1500 MARKET STREET VANCOUVER WA .......... is the only address I have. G.

The bundles of money were wet when found near the water's edge; the campfire never touched the money. No evidence of charing from any cause. Quite obviously, after finding the money Harold and the others turned up sand everywhere looking for more. Apparently, nothing more was found. After Crystal Ingram went public more money was turned over to the FBI via Crystal Ingram, with Harold and Patricia Ingram remaining silent. Finally, around Feb 20th 1980, stress surfaced in the Ingram family. Patricia Ingram began voicing her contention and making calls to the effect that BRIAN should be given an award for finding the Cooper money. It is alleged, Patricia and Harold Ingram contacted a radio station trying to get the radio station to support Brian getting an award. (The FBI responded to inquiries, saying there was no reward.). Crystal Ingram surfaced in defense of herself and her daughter contending it was her daughter Denise who had actually found the money, while Brian was playing with the fire nearby. Crystal Ingram stated if anyone was going to get an award it should be shared between her daughter and Brian. Patricia Ingram rebutted saying Crystal's account was false, even as Crystal Ingram had already turned in more of the Cooper money to the FBI, in behalf everyone involved! Present when the money was found were Crytsal Ingram and her five year old daughter Denise, and Harold and Patricia Ingram (married) with their son Brian. Harold had built the fire. Brian was playing with the fire. Denise was off to Brian's side poking in the sand and she turned a bundle of something up. Brian looked over at Denise and saw she had turned something up and went over to finish turning the object up, and Brian called to his father to come look - who was off at some distance looking for firewood. Crystal and Patricia were away in another direction talking and looking for firewood. That in a nutshell is Crystal Ingram's account. Crystal Ingram was in fact, the divorced wife of David Ingram, Harold's brother. G.

so you get to test your theories. Lucky us! Better adjust your cushion.

Harold & Patricia lived at 1500 Market St Vancouver. They either lived with a brother or brother-in-law. (The accounts I have conflict). One account says they took the money home where they showed it to Ingram's brother-in-law who took the rest of the rubber bands off.. Mrs Crystal Ingram lived at 2714 K Street, Apt #2, Vancouver. Crystal's says the money was found by both children playing together near a fire that Harold had built near the water's edge, with Harold Ingram a good distance away exploring for firewood. When the children found the money, just below the surface, Brian called to his father to come see - Patricia and Crystal were together off looking for firewood and talking in another direction - Crystal Ingram's account is "near the water's edge", not 20-40 feet up the incline away from the water's edge. When the Patricia and Harold Ingram sued to claim the money I wonder what account they gave the Court, and who gave that account? To my knowledge Crystal Ingram was not part of that lawsuit? The money was discovered at approx 3:00-3:30pm on Sunday afternoon Feb 10 1980 after the Ingrams had been out in the area the entire afternoon. The Ingrams did not arrive home until after dark ~7:00pm at which time various members of the Ingram family handled and examined the money spread out on a kitchen table. Others were contacted to come look at the discovery. Some came, some didn't. It does appear nobody in the Ingrams associated the money with DB Cooper (that connection did not surface until the next day after Harold talked to people at his workplace, U-Cart Manufacturing Co at 63rd and Andersen, Vancouver WA). And yes, there were blackened bills, as found. G.

So this means it happens but do people get hurt doing it? Is jumping out of a plane at 200 and deploying head down at 200 similar? TK You need to compare "apples to apples". DBC was using a round canopy. Opening characteristics are different. You can't compare the openings of a modern square to his round. Also, you can't make the assumption that DBC deployed going 200mph. First, I have jumped out of 727 at 150mph. I waited until the air friction slowed me down to 115 before dumping. My guess is that he would have been quite unstable immediately after his exit (and lost both shoes). Then, he would have done a quick freefall to slow down and regain his stability. Most video of 727 jumps are comparatively recent (mid 90's), using modern gear and square canopies. This is a question that must be answered by a jumper with experience in rounds. These issues were thoroughly discussed by the old timers here early last year - around March 08? G.

hi georger that would be interesting. Where did you get that from? when asked by who? Its in at least two places: its in one newspaper interview with one of the Ingrams - it is also mentioned in an official account. My first reaction was that Harold? was making a general reference to the larger area they were in vs. naming Tina Bar specifically right from the start. Why mention Vancouver Lake at all if they werent there? Its a significant distance between Vcvr Lake and Tina Bar. I guess it would come down to where they parked and got out of the car and what their original purpose was, to pic nic at Tina Bar, or to explore starting at Vancouver Lake and they end up at Tina Bar and the 'alleged' fire building to cook hotdogs... only to find money. Then, discrepancies developed in the Ingram story. Significant witholding of facts. (This has already been mentioned & speculated about here, and it has foundation in the media accounts alone). Let's theorize the Ingrams don't tell the whole truth first time out. And they dont turn in all the money. Then one of the Ingrams wishes Brian to have a reward, but another Ingram calls and says "her child" is the one who found the money and she should have any reward being offered. This all leaks to the media! This sets up a competition within the Ingram family where the mother of the 5 year old is already divorcing Harold Ingram's brother and finally somebody calls and says: 'by the way, so-and-so did not turn in all the money - and we all kept some, as souveniers. ............ At length, one begins to wonder if the original story was correct and what was being concealed there? Since Harold first stated "Vancouver Lake" one can justifiably wonder: did the Ingram expedition begin at Vancouver Lake and they found some money or other articles there, and they then walked the whole shoreline looking for more (of something), and they came to Tina Bar and find money sticky out there? One thing that certifies Tina Bar is the fact the excavation there apparently did find find more fragments of money, so there was money at Tina Bar. Perhaps other things also certify Tina Bar, that I am not aware of. But, Harold Ingram referenced Vancouver Lake. Did they find something there and just keep it a secret? It's a theory. How long were they out that day and where? Why did the Ingram's bring Vancouver Lake up at all? Later, the FBI found an active warrant for Harold Ingram in (New Mexico?) and he had to clear that up. I believe people searched the Vancouver Lake area years ago (including Tosaw) on just such a theory, and found nothing. I believe Vancouver Lake was dragged because of this theory... This Ingram statement about Vancouver Lake is one of the reasons I have always been interested in the channel behind Catapillar Island, which connects the two areas. The problem with Vancouver Lake is it is out of the drop zone. However, Vancouver Lake is just off the railroad line which comes down from the Orchard's area. It offered concealment and shelter in '71. It is a catch basin and also used to flood regularly due to its position to the side of the Columbia Willamette confluence. (An object being dragged down river might divert toward this area due to the cross current from the Willamette?) G.

attached zoomed and cropped for reference. As noted before, the circle is probably from the FBI marking the money find location on each of the original pics. If you look closely at '79 photo you can see flow emerging from behind Catapillar Isle. G.

QuoteI've heard steerable canopy mentioned a few times to miss the water. It should be noted that parachutes of that time period were not very steerable, and had little forward speed. If Cooper openned high enough, he may have been able to steer away from the river. Seeing as how this was a night jump, I'd bet he didn't even know he was over the river until he hit water. REPLY> It sort of depends on when he pulls, doesnt it - I mean his chances of hitting the Columbia at all from 10k feet? The planes is traveling at 186 knots. The Columbia is n-number of feet wide. The window he must jump through to hit the Columbia v land is quite small. Maybe he was exceedingly unlucky, or we are looking at a land landing and some other scenario? Also and I hate to press you but, you know the Columbia and Tina Bar firsthand. How does debris generally get to Tina Bar, by what route. Forget hydraulics. Any common sense observation on your part would be helpful (to me). Thanks in advance -= Georger