georger

The radio at at 3B8 was probably sitting on a counter in the work area? Maybe a vertical ant at its side? Something like the old VHF-WX radios of the time? What comes to my mind as much as antenna heights would be reflection patterns along the path - VHF sigs often get propogated by reflection beyond their theoretical limit (straight-line). M's story sounds like they were listening to 305 while it was still in the air (after C's note had been read and the cockpit was passing ransom demands along to seatac) - befoe 305 had landed. So what I want to know is when did M first hear about the hijacking that she walked in and turned the radio on ? M says: " The DB Cooper skyjacking was underway as she got home from school. When Marianne got home that day she went straight to her father’s workshop in the hangar and turned on his VHF radio. She called family friends at the Thun Field Tower (Pierce County Airport, now) and got the radio frequency for the Sea-Tac Tower. She tuned in and listened for the next four hours. " How did M already know about the hijacking that she went straight to and turned on the VHF radio to listen to the HJ events? Had the HJacking already been announced on the news that she heard it at school? Is the time sequence factually possible? Did Bruce supply the: "went straight to " ? Is this what M said, without any elaboration? This has come up before and it is important in guaging any of these firsthand reports. When did news break in WA/OR on the 305 Hijacking? Had news stations broken the story before 305 even landed at SEATAC, or when? M's report is given 38 years after the fact. She was 14 years old at the time. Her report involves a lot of technical details.

I have a stupid "woman" question. If these communication were in fact broadcast by VHF (did anyone record them). I would think if Cooper talked to the forward crew - that conversation could have been transmitted by and picked up by VHF radio. No pictures of Cooper and no voice recordings! If they had just one or two words from Cooper on tape - I would provide a particial recording of a conversation I had with Duane when he was irrational after going on dialysis in 1990. Explanation of the tape: For your information and for those who know little about renal dialysis - the chemistry within the body can cause them to act irrationally when first starting diaylsis - his voice at that time (2000) was raspy because of a procedure he they had done on him, but it is still his voice and the is there is anger involved, because he was still emotionally trying to handle the fact that his life depended on a machine. (This was within the 1st three months of diaylsis). Impossible according to your own info - Duane was fresh home from Bu Dop and was skiing with the Kennedy's and Frank Sinatra in Colorado at the time. You should consult the Denver office for any recordings they have re- 11-24-71. Coide Name: Soggy Mountain Boys Go Skiing. [SMBGS-11-24-71.]

Seatac elevation: 450ft. Seatac Tower Ht: ? #305 VHF antenna height: ? Shady Acrs Apt Elevation: 432.5ft antenna Ht at Shady acres: ? Reflection pattern between the two points?

I found what I was looking for: Bruce's interview with Interview with Marianne Scott Lincoln re- listening to transmissions from #305; below - BruceSmith Jumps License In sport : : : Aug 10, 2009, 4:45 PM Post #12190 of 17735 (2821 views) Copy Shortcut Registered: Mar 3, 2009 Posts: 212 A new angle - from out of the blue [In reply to] Can't Post ________________________________________ Back at Y'all, I had two fasciating interviews over the weeks that reveal a possible whole new wrinkle in the DB Cooper story that could change everything, at least as how I understand the basic story line. Here's what I got: Interview with Marianne Scott Lincoln, August 8, 9, 2009. Marianne Scott Lincoln is currently running for the School Board in a Pierce County WA district, and I interviewed her for the local newspaper. In the course of our conversation we began talking about my work on the DB Cooper case. When I mentioned that DB Cooper had demanded $200,000, Marianne interjected and said adamantly, “Not he didn’t. He asked for $400,000 at first." Startled, I asked her how she knew that. “I know because I was listening to the radio transmissions from the cockpit to Sea-Tac tower.” Here’s Marianne’s story. The DB Cooper skyjacking was underway as she got home from school. Marianne was 14 years old at the time, and lived with her family in a home at Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA. The home was right on the runway and had a hangar. Her family had several aircraft and was part of a very active and large flying community. When Marianne got home that day she went straight to her father’s workshop in the hangar and turned on his VHF radio. She called family friends at the Thun Field Tower (Pierce County Airport, now) and got the radio frequency for the Sea-Tac Tower. She tuned in and listened for the next four hours. At first the transmission were garbled as the Tower had many flights to re-direct, but within 10-20 minutes the radio chatter quieted and for the next few hours she just listened to the transmissions: one voice from the plane (Rataczak’s), and one voice from the Tower. She said that the plane voice relayed the message that Cooper wanted $400,000. She said that a series of negotiations began then and the radio transmissions were brief and had long pauses of empty quiet. She could only hear one side of the discussion, meaning that the plane voice relayed information back to Cooper or whomever on the plane, then reported back to the Tower. She never heard any of the discussions. The Tower voice in turn was reporting to others in the Tower, who discussed counter-offers, and the Tower voice then reported the offer to the plane voice. At no time did the plane voice and the Tower voice participate in the negotiations or discussion. They merely acted as mouth-pieces for others. Marianne never heard what the others were saying, either in the Tower or on the plane. Also, at no time did anyone from the FBI or CIA get on the radio, as far as Marianne heard. Marianne listened for hours and said it often got boring. She turned on a TV set and had a second source of information coming in. Her father (named William Scott, BTW, another piece of synchronicity!) also came in, as did a couple other family members. Marianne doesn’t fully remember if she was still listening when 305 took off from Sea-Tac at 7:30, or when Cooper jumped in the 8:10-8:30 time frame. She thinks she was, but she was also eating dinner with her family, listening to family discussion about Cooper and their speculations on what was happening and what was going to happen. However, Marianne strongly believes that she heard that 305 turned east, away from Victor 23, over Gresham, Oregon, just after crossing the Columbia River, and continued over the Columbia between Mt. Hood and Mt. Adams. I’ve had two interviews with Marianne on this subject, and her memory is unclear. At first she was adamant that 305 turned east over Gresham, mentioning it several times. But in the second interview, when we tried to piece together other aspects – such as if the plane voice was different out-bound from Sea-Tac as opposed to the voice in-bound to Sea-Tac as Rataczak told me it was (R. said he handled comm. in-bound and Scotty did out-bound). I’ve suggested to Marianne that she try some self-hypnosis or candle focus to clear her mind and focus in on these issues, and she said she might. She also made one more chaneg in the second interview. She said she as listening to Seattle Center, broadcasting out of Auburn, WA, not Sea-Tac Tower itself. Also: Her neighbor at Shady Acres was a NWO pilot, whom she suggested I call to get more background info. I talked with him today and he said Rataczak ‘was one of the good guys.” Never flew with him, but he knew him. He didn’t know Scott too well, though. (This post was edited by BruceSmith on Aug 10, 2009, 5:01 PM)

The manual says ZERO about in flight stair deployment. Not even a hint. 378 There had to be many manuals for the 727 used by different parties? Its almost inconceivable that the flight crew (including a flight engineer) wouldnt know something about the operation of the rear door & stairs. I know exactly what sentiment Orange is expressing in her read of the transcript. The flight crew seems totally uninformed and in need of help?. Dont forget this crew also had to get escape instructions (ideas) from the outside - Every time we go over these things I have the feeling we are missing important context - maybe the facts were a lot simpler. Maybe except for basic flight ops they didnt know the plane? (Just bus drivers). That could account for them not knowing where they were at 8:15 either!

Did he hear the communication? I know that it's common for crews while on the ground to switch the comm to cockpit speaker. I have always wondered about that. Every person Ive ever asked (who is supposed to know, like Ckret) said flat-out no, but I still wonder ...

Ive wondered the same thing. Ive also wondered about this 20 minute gap in the transcript immediately after Cooper bailed ... which has been explained away as a comunication problem (perfectly timed). That 20 minute gap is a dead giveaway. Rosemary Woods must have been working at NWA Dispatch that night. I am the one who found the evidence of Air Americas 727 jumps by corresponding with a University of Texas professor who has chronicled the history of covert air ops in SE Asia. I must admit that it was Jo Webers insistance that 727s were used for air drops during the Nam war that spurred my inquiry. The videos are pretty cool. Snowmman posted some stills. The canopies squidded dramatically reducing opening shock. That was unexpected by me. I thought an out the door deployment would produce a horrific opening shock. I was a jumper and airplane nut. I had manuals for most Boeing airliners. I never would have thought you could lower the stairs in flight. I thought the airloads would push it back up with high forces. I think Cooper KNEW that wouldn't happen. 377 L If Weber knew about it, what does that tell you? Is it covered in any of Bernard Fall's works? I dont think it was any BIG secret. Why did Cooper want Tina to open the door? Couldnt he have done it himself. In the end they worked together to get it open? So much for intimate knowledge of the rear stairs and door ?

Ah ... so Cooper was a subscriber to Popular Mechanics?

Ive wondered the same thing. Ive also wondered about this 20 minute gap in the transcript immediately after Cooper bailed ... which has been explained away as a communication problem (perfectly timed). They flew through the alien 'tractor beam'... ...that's why DB was never found! something like that ... what continually nags me is I dont think we are in a good position to judge many of these things, for lack of data. It could be exactly as Orange says, but we don;t know. We can;t know due to lack of context. These questions may never be settled. Remember what Labrys said: OUTLINES and possibly never anything else. Its a viscious cycle of uncertainty...

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic? Ive wondered the same thing. Ive also wondered about this 20 minute gap in the transcript immediately after Cooper bailed ... which has been explained away as a comunication problem (perfectly timed).

could not or should not ? I dont think it had come up for this crew before - Rat could comment about that today.

Some of your assertions are broad sweeping generalisations which you have no data to support or answer: (1) NWA since they didn't know that the rear steps could even be lowered in flight until Boeing personnel told them. (2) How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking? (3) How did Cooper know that only the rear steps on the 727 could be lowered in flight and not the steps on other aircraft such as the DC-9? [Cooper said nothing about DC9's ???] (4) According to Tosaw, Cooper told Tina Mucklow that he knew that the 727 could take off with those steps down. [Rat told Cooper this was not possible and Cooper did not question this and backed down. So why would Cooper tell Tina this and then elt Rat talk him out of it? ] (5) How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking? [Answer: 50431.3 ... Gallup did a survey for CBS news! ?] Because: if what you say is true it would have been a fairly short path to digging Cooper out, and that we know did not happen in spite of investigations along the very lines you suggest. Now what? I could make an equal or more compelling argument based on actual evidence (simple as it is!) that Cooper was from the Salt Lake area and heard of McCoy's intentions to hijack a 727 (off the rear stairs), stayed quiet, and beat McCoy to the punch after a hijacking had already occurred a short time earlier. (McCoy waited several months for things to quiet down before going through with his plan ... McCoy then "refused" any comment about the Cooper hijacking, according to Agent Calame. Refused? You can read a lot into "refused" just as you have read a lot of assumptions into yours, above)

I'm looking at a 727 manual that was my wife's when she was a 727 driver...from the information contained within, were I suitably motivated I could easily author a usable checklist to facilitate an in-air op such as was done by Cooper. Since each 727 flight crew has 3 people in it all with a manual, and each 727 has several crews, and each airline flying 727's had several of them in the fleet...I would offer that the 'knowledge' of how to do this was actually QUITE available. ...not to mention the multitude of maintenance manuals at every FBO at every airport in the world serviced by 727's...both flight crew and maintenance manuals that were being used at the time, and the discarded ones that were constantly being updated, add up to literally thousands of possible sources to reference. One really only needed to have the idea & will to research possible ways. Hmm. All Wilbur and Orville did was go down and look at seagulls! I just cant figure out WHERE you techy guys get all of these TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS WHEN the average 3 year old raises spoons to the mouth just fine without a MANUAL!

which technical info did he & only 500 have? Any fool could put 2+2 together and realise you could jump off those rear stairs, IFF you could get SOMEBODY to lower them for you (which is where Tina came in).

Jo states; I like the remark - "completing" versus "actually". Lots of military and non military where trained to jump but were never considered rangers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 377 stated: I don't condone beating up mentally ill posers, but that's what happens. At least afterwards the poser can truthfully claim that he fought with the Army Rangers or Special Forces. Jo states just for the record:

Thanks Robert.

Does anyone have a link or copy of the article listed below - this appeared in the Nov 2003 Parachutist. "The Mystery of D.B. Cooper," by Musika Farnsworth, Parachutist, November 2003. Is the long post at the Lexus Forums the same article? Url is: http://www.clublexus.com/forums/the-clubhouse/368041-the-d-b-cooper-story-a-mystery.html any help appreciated. I can find nor eference to this article having ever been mentioned in this forum? perhaps I am wrong. Likewise, the Lexus Clubs article on DB Cooper is worth reading if you dont know about it - see attached - so far as I can determine, the Parachutist Magazine has no archive on its homepage to download past articles from ... ?

Turns out he wasn't a pilot and never served in the military. I busted him but just socially. No need to call the FBI even though he violated the Stolen Valor Act. Thats the whole problem - you cant just 'bust them socially'. It doesnt work. Guys who track some of these cases say that 99% of the cases involve repeat offenders ... they get busted socially once or twice and just move to the next venue/ opportunity. Sure there is a mental issue involved but quite often these cases need to be handled formally to get it "stopped". The situations themselves require decisive action, in the end. Even with a law most of the cases will continue! Thats the sad fact. Here's a fact you probably wont accept without verifying it for yourself. If my facts are correct, there is no Dept under the DOD, no Dept in the FBI, etc etc which handles false claims cases. There are only a few small organisations and committees under separate Branches of the Military which handles/investigates flse claims issues, then may or maynot report back to the FBI, DOD, etc. Some of these organisations are staffed by overworked unpaid retired military people. Moreover, even with the Stolen Honor Act it is my understanding there was no funding allocated for a Dept or committe or panel to take over what private groups are doing today - If there wasnt a problem there would be no need for a solution? I have a son who feels exactly like you do. My advice to him is "by the time you are my age you might start to think differently". He concedes he might. He hopes he wont have to!

I have never and would not spend one second looking for Cooper, unless of course someone handed me some dna and finger prints, or other physical evidence. Straightening out some elements of the case and enriching the factual history - that I am interested in. I actually looked your town up on the map today. Somehow I thought you were in another area of Florida, I was shocked to see where you are! I would do everything in my power to get someone to block the inlet. I wish Obama would do something decisive and put Lt. Gen. Russel Honore in charge.

will call when I get a chance later this week. Still finishing up in Seattle. Will call you after I have talked to a few more people. Hope all OK your end... and ... bun is still in the oven. G. [edit] Jerry has asked I post the attached. F16s at approx 500 and 3000 feet.

Senator Orin Hatch of Utah today proposed as follows: AMENDMENT NO.llll TO STOLEN HONOR ACT Calendar No.lll Purpose: To prohibit the fraudulent representation of military service to obtain employment or other benefits. IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES—111th Cong., 2d Sess. H. R. 4899 Making emergency supplemental appropriations for disaster relief and summer jobs for the fiscal year ending Sep- tember 30, 2010, and for other purposes. Referred to the Committee onllllllllll and ordered to be printed Ordered to lie on the table and to be printed AMENDMENTintended to be proposed by Mr. HATCH Viz: On page 81, between lines 22 and 23, insert the fol- 1 lowing: 2 PROHIBITION ON FRAUDULENT REPRESENTATION OF MILITARY SERVICE TO OBTAIN EMPLOYMENT OR OTHER BENEFITS 5 SEC. 3008. (a) CRIMINALOFFENSE.—Section 704 of 6 title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the 7 end the following new subsection: 8 ‘‘(c) FRAUDULENT REPRESENTATION OF MILITARY SERVICE OR AFFILIATION.—Whoever knowingly makes a fraudulent statement . . . 10 : Tues June 01 2010 Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) is attempting to amend the 2005 Stolen Honor Act, which criminalized false claims of military service, in order to seek False gain by fraud. Sen. Orrin Hatch’s (R-Utah) bill would make it illegal to air misleading public statements about anyone’s military service or the service of another ... Hatch's amendment defines an offender as "whoever knowingly makes a fraudulent statement or representation, verbally or in writing, regarding the military service of any citizen of the United States vis-a-vis service in the United States Armed Forces, including but not limited to, participation in combat operations, or affiliation with United States Armed Forces, for the purpose of gaining recognition, honorarium, official office or titles, a position of authority, or any other fraudulent purpose seeking gain or recognition or recompense." [edit] Sen Hatch's bill has strong support from a cross section of the American public and organisations. Sen Hatch's bill would cover instances of fraudulent assertions of military service occurring on the internet.

I haven't been keeping up with this thread the way I used to, but I have to chime in here. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's no way she could have been able to pick out a person standing on the lowered rear stairs from 10k. I spend way too much time looking up at a Cessna 182 at 10,000 feet. With years of practice, under optimum conditions, I can tell when the door is opened (hinged at the top, the inside of the door is black, the bottom of the wing is white). The inexperienced spectators need to be guided to the plane (I bring them under the opened hangar door and use it as a reference) and they often refuse to believe that I can see that the door is opened. At night, in cloudy weather, with a darkened cabin... With little or no experience looking for opened doors on planes. Yeah, riiiiiight. The physics supports you. again from several pages back: " The physical facts of human vision remain the same, regardless of anyone's story: * Angular resolution: about 0.02°-0.03°), which corresponds to 30–60 cm at a 1 km distance = 0.625mi = 3300ft. Translated this means that people with normal vision can usually resolve objects no closer apart than 30-60cm (1-2 feet) at a distance of 3300 feet or 1 km. (see Wiki Vision Acuity; other sources convey the same standard data on human vision)." attached - [a camera may be considered a perfect eye] [edit] The problem is: the physics requires Jan's report was of a plane below 10,000 feet and more likely 2500 feet or less. And secondly, Jan's was not the only report of this kind which surfaced by 1972. That is documented fact. Stories like Jan's are of the type which one might expect after a highly publicised hijacking of this nature (in your own back yard). Lots of Washingtons and Oregonians surfaced with all kinds of "stories" and "claims" following the highjacking. Obviously not all made into the news. Jan's apparently didnt. Norma's didnt. Emma's didnt. Evene a few LE people surfaced with stories .... all of which proves, we have only scratched the surface of the Cooper hijacking. Imagine for one moment the catalog of stories and anecdotes LE and the FBI could tell! They could write a book! (did I say that again?) [edit] one story I want to hear more about is the story from the woman in Washington who said 'they all listened to flight #305 on their radio'. Finally distance and interferenece washed out the signal. This story was mentioned in this forum, once long ago. The story involves multiple witnesses some of whom may still be alive. maybe they belonged to Emma's church group too! Meanwhile, the "Coopre researchers and book writers" (whoever ithey are!) would have you believe there is some some secret information or some edge on this case only they have, and never mind the thousands of people from professionals to lay-people who actually had some real part of this case, unimagined and real as it actually happened. Why in that context was Cooper never found? Why did the man pick the name Cooper? What was the real flight path and drop zone? How did the money get to Tina Bar? The Cooper hijacking happened in the real world. I think its time to start reminding ourselves of that small fact in order to avoid more of the same old unproductive nonsense people have dispensing and trying to sell ...

Along these lines, I had a brief conversation with Lt. Ray Luney of the San Mateo County Sheriff's Department today, and he told me a packet of court documents is on its way to me. He confirmed that Burnworth had been arrested, but "not for anything having to do with airplanes." The arrest was for a contempt of court citation, and I presume it has to do with taking his kids out of the country. When I get the details, I'll post a comprehensive view of what happened with Donny B. This is about what I suspected, and previously posted. That leaves one to wonder what Mr. X, Burnworth, and Galen Cook are up to. On the other hand children often build myths for missing or deficient significant others - Don't be too surprised if the myth continues. Don't be surprised either if someday the FBI surfaces to say the Burnworth story was not true. The Janet story may be a horse of a different shade. Where there is one witness, there are potentially two (or more), or at least the rumor of another witness. The rumor was communicated in a church circle in Vancouver in 1972. The rumor may have made its way to Portland or even began in Portland for all I know. Janet may be the source of it all - I literally don't know (in spite of spending hours on the phone trying in vain to recover the rumor and people who heard it and passed it along). If nothing else, the rumor was real and passed on. A number of people eventually heard the rumor. I have no idea what Janet's church affiliation was, (if any), but I would very much like to know! I communicated part of this to Sluggo some time ago. Beyond this, there isn't much I want to say right now.

Uhh... I believe DARPA and probably PARC*, but SRI was too busy with goofy-guys staring at goats! * Don't forget Al Gore who probably is Satan (that is, unless Janet Reno is Satan, which would make Gore a JAFMI (Just Another F%$king Minor Imp). Come to think of it... I think Janet Reno is/was Michael Jackson. I never saw them together... that's how I figured out that Clark Kent was Superman! georger said: Bravo georger! Now we need to convince them that others just don't care how they feel about each other. Sluggo Have a good holiday.

Jerry Thomas did not begin this work. I began this work, with others, months ago. If you've got any questions address them to me. Jerry is a recent addition because we felt his experience was needed and valuable. In case you forgot, Jerry has been working the Cooper case in Washington since approximately 1985-88. I do not approve or condone this ongoing debate between Mr. Thomas and Jo Weber. I see this as pointless-in-the-extreme and I have voiced this to Jerry many many times. From my vantage point, I think this debate should never have started in the first place, and I doubt it will ever be settled to Jo Weber's satisfaction. I can do nothing about that any more than I can stop BP's broken oil well. Everyone is departing Washington on Friday for the holiday so there will be a propracted lull which I am personally looking forward to - Have a good holiday.