georger

I just took the reports. I never know how representative those reports are. Contrary to some, I am not pushing an agenda. I just want the money facts whatever they are. The reason I keep this alive is that we had a prior solution, or I thought we had, involving Ckret and his work, but maybe not? From my point of view this is all very perplexing. Even vexing. The minute you think a problem is solved, then the next day it may not be solved! CC's interview of Grinnel is ambiguous to me. And I have no reason to doubt the agents I spoke with regarding their experiences with banks packaging ransoms in cases these agents worked. Both versions could be true - different practices in different parts of the country ? Ransoms historically have evidently been prepared in a number of ways. So far as I know, there is no law or policy which demands that bank ransoms must be prepared in a certain way ? On another note, Edwards has posted below regarding a Loadmaster that vanished - interesting! https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the C-124 connection 'My reason for telling this man’s story was that, sometime in the 1970s, one of his former classmates told the FBI that he was a dead ringer for the sketches of ‘D. B. Cooper’ that were then circulating in the press. The FBI never followed that up, and the man from Oregon disappeared from history. I have no reason to believe that he was the hijacker of Flight 305.' Hope you can make progress with this. Can you tell more ? Can anyone prove this suspect vanished for all time immediately after the Cooper hijacking ?

BTG: BATTLE GROUND VORTAC BATTLE GROUND, WA. Location. Lat/Long: 45-44-52.120N / 122-35-29.532W (45.7478111/-122.5915367) Elevation: 253.3 ft. sorry for the typo - are you happy now prick ?

Edwards invoking Occam's razor is a cop-out ! There is no evidence that Cooper money fell directly from the plane into the Columbia River. Or any river anywhere. That is the conundrum Occam's razor cannot solve. Occam's razor is not even germane to the issues involved! There is no evidence that Cooper bailed into the Columbia River and all known facts suggest that did not happen nor could it have happened. Invoking Occam's razor does not even apply! Occam's razor is a figure of speech that reminds us of the value of simplicity. But life and the real world are often not simple. When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras, or turtles, or frogs! Context matters. The context for money being at Tena Bar started somewhere back around BTL VOR or earlier, not over the Columbia minutes later. Cooper and the money were probably gone before the plane got near the Columbia. There is no substitute for evidence.

I agree. Cooper preparing early before they have even taken off at SEA almost guarantees that he wants to jump soon, between SEA and PDX, and probably as close to PDX as possible. I think the pilots expected that based on what Cooper was doing. I think this so-called uncertainty over him leaving, is myth. LE and the pilots in particular had lost control of the situation the minute the plane was airborne but they were reluctant to admit that openly. I think the 'uncertainty' is sour grapes! If Cooper landed alive and uninjured he has decisions to make or a plan to execute. But LE did not have the manpower to cover all possible options. It takes until 1980 for any evidence to surface whatever it tells us, which is nothing !

Also, as a practical matter, why in the world would Cooper have jumped right over, or even near, a city of 400k people? Cooper didn't know precisely where he was but if he still been on the aircraft as they passed over Vancouver he'd have known that it was Vancouver/Portland beneath him. If he knew the geography of Tacoma-Seattle from the air and relative time-distance, he sure as hell knew where the Columbia River and Portland-Vancouver was with some sense of ground time! Alliance Rubber points out that the bands on the money are a clock - recover the bands and you recover a clock and potential history of a place and time. It may sound far fetched but, there may be a piece of melt transition Crepe-Gold(R) band with a diatom from a specific place and time attached to it, waiting to be be discovered ? The money and bands got into the Columbia system somehow, at some specific place and time with some relationship to the flight path and time. It must have been a warm day 90+F on some beach, with lots of UV ? The flight path must put all of these ingredients together. The Brian Ingram and Globe Ins evidence folders they were given may have rubber band remnants in them just sitting waiting to be examined ? I tried to tell Brian Ingram that years ago but he didnt have the faintest idea what I was talking about...

Engineer, B.W. at Alliance Rubber has fielded many calls about rubber bands since his company was identified years ago as having supplied rubber bands to SeaFirst Bank, which may have been used to bundle Cooper bills. So he was prepared when I called today and we had a productive discussion. Bands supplied to Sea First by Alliance Rubber, presumably used to bundle bills in the Cooper hijacking, were probably Telecrepe Gold® bands (so named for their amber color). These bands come in three sizes: 31/2 ”L x 1/16, 1/8, or 1/4 inch wide. All of these sizes were being supplied to SeaFirst and used in their vault area for bundling bills at the time of the hijacking. These bands have a particular formulation with very high rubber content resulting in an ideal stretch vs strength combination as well as distinctive amber color. These bands are for office use and do not age well outside in nature. Alliance engineer B.W. said that Telecrepe Gold® bands enter a gooey stage (melt transition phase) when temperatures exceed 90F or due to UV exposure. They become very sticky (like Amber tree resin), and stick to paper money fibers, or anything else in their surroundings during their gooey stage, prior to crystallizing and drying out. I read the engineer Pat Ingram’s description of the bands and picking off pieces of bands stuck to some bills with some band fragments actually pulling pieces of bill paper off with them, and the engineer remarked: “This is exactly how Telecrepe Gold Bands would act after having gone through a melt transition phase, then dried adhering to the paper bill. ” BW added: "If you ever get a sample of those Cooper bands, I would love to analyze them, to confirm if they were our Telecrepe Gold® bands.

NEW GLITCH! Nobody knows the actual size of bands used on the Cooper money! Nobody asked the bank! So people make up whatever you want.

Ok. agents I spoke with wrong .... The Ingrams were wrong ... The size of the bands used on the Cooper bundles or packages is unknown and not recoverable ... what ? I dont think Tom ever published the actual size? Thanks OleMiss for the photo showing how the Cooper money was actually packaged ! Did the Cooper Thingy actually happen ? All that remains is for OleMiss to tell us who Cooper was if it really happened ?

The OleMiss photo of how the money was packaged - is 100% impossible based on the Ingram-FBI description of what was found and its description. The Ingrams found and picked off rubber bands from each of three 'packets'. 'As he did so, the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. ... The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it....' Each bundle,or packet as its sometimes called in the FBI documents, was held together by rubber bands. There were three such packets or bundles each with bands and remnants of bands around it. If each bundle is held together by rubber bands ... where are paper straps applied in this config? The only place left to apply paper straps would be to strap rubber banded bundles together ?? The OleMiss photo cannot be correct based on the FBI and Ingram testimony. Each of the three bundles found had rubber bands around each of them. So if there were paper straps where would they be? Around what ? The only option would be to have bands and straps around each bundle. The Ingrams were very specific about where bands were and what was picked off (and the time it consumed doing this) on the found money.

Good luck! They were shipped to a contact at Royal Globe in NYC by the Portland atty. He got a return receipt from someone signing for Royal Globe and never heard anything further. He doesnt have the faintest idea what happened to the money. A numismatic dealer on the east coast contacted many people trying to unravel this - he got nowhere. That was two years ago. Other people have tried and failed to get anywhere. I have the names of these people if you want them ?

I was also surprised when agents said they never encountered a ransom prepared by a bank that involved 'paper straps' but only 'rubber bands'. Does this reflect a blanket policy by banks or law enforcement ? I have no idea. Its extremely frustrating that Tina wasnt asked: what do you mean by 'bank type bands' ? I admit that could mean paper straps. One agent commented further saying: 'there are different types of bank straps' - some had threads going through them and were stronger than others'. We dont have FBI lab reports on the money! The forensic lab in the Treasury Dept where they deal with damaged money from countless sources with different histories, was bypassed, evidently. If that lab had been able to examine all of the 'groups' of bills the Ingrams turned in, that might have provided some educated opinions about the money's history ... but the US Treasury Forensic Lab was evidently bypassed in favor of the FBI Lab.

I am not envisioning anything. I am wanting to know how the money was packaged. This has become an example of how things become monstrosities on DB Cooper forums. Even the simplest question starts wars! Its obvious why Tina wants/needs her privacy.

Are you suggesting he could tell they had straps on them because of how the money FELT sitting in his lap?? Its WG's statement not mine. CC is questioning WG trying to get a simple answer - he saw the money or he didn't. WG wont give CC a simple direct answer - yes or no! CC asks: CC: Sure. So you never actually laid eyes on the money itself. WG responds: I had it sitting in my lap. CC asks further: CC: And, do you know if, um, in the organization or the packaging of the money to deliver to him if rubber bands we also used to kind of take 3 or 4 of those $2000 packets and kind of rubber band them together. You don’t have any knowledge of that? WG: Uh, no, I don’t. WG NEVER SAW THE MONEY! OR HE DOESNT REMEMBER.

Its unfortunate she wont answer, or someone answer for her. Maybe we will never know. But if nothing else, the issue does affect the physics of the money behavior. Its a simple question. Its a question that should have been asked in her original interview, for clarification.

I dont know, is she? Now you are stretching credulity. Tina and everyone else used multiple words for the money. Had Tina said 'bank type straps' vs 'bank type bands' then we would know, but she didnt say that. What is the big deal with asking her what she meant? I get the feeling you dont want her asked or people to know! You are now shoving this down our throats! This is not a morality play about school books - this is research.

Simple. He answers that question by saying: “When I saw it, it was already (packaged)” "Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps." "I could tell that they were in what we call straps" ....... because ....... "the money bag was in my lap! And "Denominations for twenties (at a bank) are wrapped with money straps." What he says is circular. He never answers the question. He never saw the money being prepared or in the bag. He arrived after the money had been packaged, and microfilmed, and he was presented with a sealed bag. That is what he says. He never answers CC directly! He continues and says "Denominations for twenties (at a bank) are wrapped with money straps." Therefore, the Cooper twenties must have been wrapped in straps! He is just assuming the Cooper twenties were wrapped with straps, like they are at a bank. The agents I spoke with today in all their years working hostage, ransom, and burglary cases say they never once saw a large payment given out by a bank with anything but rubber bands on the bundles of bills, (in cases involving hundreds of thousands even $400k in one case...) Grinnel never saw the money. He arrived after the money had already been prepared. He was presented with a bag to deliver. Beyond that he is conjecturing: the Cooper twenties must have been in straps because that is how twenties are kept at a bank - in straps! He avoids answering CC directly which is the same as not answering CC's question at all.

Since Tina never mentioned rubber bands once, a strict interpretation is: there were no rubber bands at all. The Ingrams made that up. I dont know where you are getting the above from the Grinnel file I read. You must have a different file. The file I have says only: (maybe I was not given the whole file?) Quoting: Grinnel interview – how the money was packaged: Portions of Interview verbatim. WG: I was, you know, a kid, and my boss - and you’ll see where I’m going with this - was a retired FBI agent. He had been a high ranking FBI agent. I mean he’d been in Washington, uh, DC, and so forth. … He hangs up and he turns to me and says, “I want you to head to the cash vault. When you get there, we’ll have more information.” “Hey, you head over to the Seattle Police Department. You will be escorted by a couple police officers out to the airport. Bill, you’re going to be going with them, but I need you to go down to the cash vault.” Obviously, that’s where we kept all of our money. “We got to get money out to the airport. There’s something going on out there.” WG: So, everybody’s scrambling for where they’re going to be. I’m down in the vault watching as they are counting all the cash. WG: Um, we’re calling my partner over at the police department…one of the things Cooper had demanded was, um, the money be packaged in currency bags and that no bills be new. He wanted all the bills to be older bills. CC: Were you actually present when they gathered that money together? Did you get to see that happen… WG: Yes. WG: Well, so, my partner, he’s over at the police department. He gets together with a couple plainclothes detectives who are assigned by the top guy from the FBI calling the Seattle Police Department saying, “We need some help” “Well, what do you need?” “Plainsclothes, car.” Because Cooper demanded that “I don’t want to see any police cars” and the police department had cars that looked like any cars out on the street. So, they brought their car, and we end up using their car to get out to the airport. Prior to that, we’re still kind of scrambling to get the money. When that larger pack was set up, it was really believed that that would be used for a hostage that was taken from the bank. CC: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. . . . WG: I believe, well, I know that when I got down there to take control of the money, that they had just completed what they called in those days a “microfiche” of the money. He had said no marked bills, but we had kind of “pre-thought” about that sort of an issue, so we were able…I mean when I went, like within three days of that robbery, we were able to and we did send out to all the SeaFirst branches and pretty much every bank in three or four counties of all the serial numbers of the money that had been taken. CC: Right. They had recorded those. Like you said, they used microfiche so all the bills were recorded. So, let me ask you…the money itself, do you recall how the money was packaged? Was it strapped with paper currency straps? Was it rubber banded together? Or was it kind of both? Do you remember how the money was sort of organized and packaged? WG: Well, I know that it was packaged, but I can’t say that it was done in anticipation of it. My feeling is that you gotta do something with it because you don’t want to hand him a block of money that they couldn’t comfortably open the package and take a look, but this is just based on other situations that I was in. We were able to…I was seeing it. I was watching it, but there were two or three others doing the same thing. CC: So, do you recall rubber bands on the money? Do you recall rubber bands on the money or it being rubber banded together or rubber banded into bundles? WG: When I saw it, it was already … I could tell that they were in what we called, um, straps. He wanted twenty dollar bills. Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps. CC: Right. [WG never saw the money being packaged. He never saw the money in the bag. He does not know how the money was packaged. He says: “When I saw it, it was already (packaged)” He just assumes it had to be in straps, because: "Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps." WG: I could tell that they were in what we called, um, straps. He wanted twenty dollar bills. Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps. (Therefore the Cooper money had to be in straps)!

Why dont you call her and ask her! I would in a second if I could!! I would have called her in ???????????????? 2008 ? 1972? Part of the problem is she uses other words for the money, packages, bundles .... she has never used the word straps which requires paper bank straps. BTW I do appreciate people responding to this! I wouldnt waste everyone's time if I didnt think there was an issue here - - -

I have no idea but, somebody could simply ask Tina and see what she says - what she meant. What is astounding is that no one has asked her what she meant by 'bank type bands' since 1972. Thats a little like failing to ask Einstein: "what does e=mc2 mean" ? Either she saw paper straps or she didn't, if thats what she meant by bank type bands! 'Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the bundle of money to her. Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.' How was he able to reach in a pull out 'one package' or 'single bundle' out if the bundles were bank strapped together? Wouldnt he have to unstrap the bundles first ?

Talked to three retired agents this afternoon who worked 20+ extortion,ransom, and bank robbery cases during their careers - where money was assembled or given by a bank in such cases. In none of these cases were paper bank straps ever involved. Groups of money were always prepared using rubber bands, usually in bundled amounts of $1-2k each. In every case either the banks or the FBI agents recorded the serial numbers of each bill. One of these agents worked on the Cooper case and he says the Cooper money was prepared by Sea First in rubber banded bundles, after recording the serial numbers. No paper straps were used on the Cooper money. He says that Mr. Grinnel was just a "young delivery boy" who never saw the money being prepared and was given a sealed bag and put in a car with two armed guards, and they sped to the airport to deliver the money bag to NWA official Al Lee in order to meet Cooper's deadline. Mr. Grinnel was merely handed a bag of money already prepared, and told to 'go with the guards ...' Grinnel never saw the money - period! Grinnel essentially says the same in his interview with CC. I dont know why anyone would be confused about this? Why does any of this matter? It matters because we need a forensic starting point ( facts ie. how the money was configured) in order to test theories about how the money got to Tena Bar and how other money evidence is explained. It is the facts that matter vs. people's theories and 'opinions'. We cant even agree on what Grinnel's interview says !

Using AI to Fight and Investigate Crime / How Police Use AI https://mindy-support.com/news-post/using-ai-to-fight-crime-how-police-use-ai/ Just the beginning. The ability of algorithms to process huge amounts of information and do massive amounts of comparative analysis quickly, offers analytical tools previously not available to researchers ... these new tools will make re-evaluation of old evidence in cold cases possible... In addition to getting at new-better evidence in cold cases, people could quickly sort through the endless claims and theories some people attach to high profile cold cases . . . that could save years and narrow the focus in some cold cases.

Saw an important story on CNN tonight about coupling word text prediction to brain scans, using AI algorithms to predict people's unique speech/thought patterns as a function of brain function and personal identity - like a new type of finger printing! . It struck me a few people might try to use Cooper text to predict Cooper's unique brain scans, ....., leading to his personal identity using AI technology. I can see a History Channel program exploiting this technology. Someone may decide to take this seriously ..... someone like Colbert ? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/researchers-use-ai-to-decode-words-from-brain-scans-180982097/ Cooper said 'get the show on the road' etc. For example: we could subject Ammerman to these tests to find out what he was actually thinking and knew as he conducted flight 305 along its flight! As a clue to where Ammerman 'actually knows' where 305 was when Cooper bailed ......... the possibilities are endless. We could get all kinds of people to submit to these tests to discover the truth of their claims. Jut typing words in a post or on Facebook could reveal one's brain function leading to truth! The possibilities boggle the mind. I would almost predict that someone will attempt to use AI to reformat the DB Cooper case to their advantage. Its just a matter of time. Maybe Flyjack will be first to 'mind print' his subject for criminology ? That would be a first. Can you guess what the person below was thinking/saying to himself based on these scans ? Given his unique brainprint, who is he? Where is he on Earth right now?

No problem. Hope your insight on the Cooper case is better than this! Roberts problem is years old in case you had not noticed. Nothing I can do about it - I cant change the course of the Columbia River either. Just give it some space. He will stop when he gets tired or finds something/someone else to fixate on. Maybe I will post something to change the subject .... but I am tired of 99's harassment. Sorry for the problem - beyond my control. Have you got any Cooper news to share ? Been a long time.

没人在乎！ Méi rén zàihū! Do you understand now ? Nobody cares, Robert. Your obsessions are not anyone's concern.

ok