georger

There is no event post drop that is uniquely Cooper and nobody or nothing else, to track. Cooper is a black hole. The money is different and traceable to an extent. The money winds up south of all possible dz's as part of the Columbia River system. A number of things can be eliminated immediately - the money did not drop from the plane on or even near Tena Bar! That is impossible. So the money was transported south by some means. Moreover, the money stayed intact as given to Cooper through the transportation and was found undisturbed by human hands in 1980. That may suggest the fate of the money (in a bag) and the fate of Cooper, may not be linked. Or, if they are linked, Cooper may have made it to the Columbia with the money bag in tact and thrown the whole bag into the Columbia, satisfied that his 'grudge' had accomplished its mission. Cooper doesnt have to follow the profile of any other hijacker. Cooper may be unique ?

My belief is the money probably arrived on TBar via an event that also buried it. Because nobody saw money at Tena Bar until the Ingram find and that did not happen because the Ingrams saw it, but because Brian and Denise were digging in the sand, as kids do. It was the kids moving sand around that exposed something curious - 'hey Daddy come and see!'. There are no credible accounts of anyone seeing money anywhere on Tena Bar at any time (1971-1980) prior to the Ingram digging. That leaves dredging, a flood, intentional burial, ... on a sandbar visited daily by thousands of people over the years? No tests were run to try and determine when the money was removed from exposure to the atmosphere by burial, to estimate a date when the money got buried. It has been so many years since, that such tests cannot be run with any degree of accuracy!

The bands were not intact. Impossible. They were remnants of bands which is the only possibility. I dont know what you mean by ' money arrived on TBAR as 3 separate packets' ? The wad of money was together, I think, but came out or was pulled out in three primary groups. There is no indication that those 3 groups were three distinct bundles just that the money was pulled out in 3 parts. Everything was put in a sandwich bag and it was at home that the total sorted out as socalled 'bundles' - each bundle defined by bills with band remnants on them, as Brian posts it. But then even that pseudo order was destroyed as the cleaning process went forward. The cleaning process left exactly what you see in the FBI press photo - groups of money the Ingrams delivered in another sandwich bag. The Ingram find did not come out of the ground with labels and instructions on it! I am not sure what Brian remembers or thinks he remembers after years of talking to other people except that his mother has played a primary role in Brian's current memory of everything. I wouldnt be surprised to find out that Pat and Harold themselves tried to sort this all out after the fact ...... with all kinds of people asking them questions or making comments not the least of which would have been Tosaw who had a personal stake in the whole matter. Brian's memory may be a collective memory born of years of people talking and trying to reconstruct everything. The only person who might remember what she saw is Tina Mucklow but nobody seems to want to ask her! I find that totally bizarre and strange! As crazy as the 'divorce trial' that split up the found Cooper money between three competing parties sending primary evidence in the Cooper case to the far ends of the Earth and God only knows where never to be recoverable again! Brian should have been given a reward without any strings attached! Globe Loan should have been told to wait. The Fed Govt should have been made custodian of the found money. And Mr. Tosaw should have been sent home ....

Suggest everyone hold on to their point of view, pending further evidence - which could be someone actually asking Tina what she saw ? Better late than never.

Lets get this over with. Information from Brian Ingram was posted, as quoted below. Brian refers to three packets and three bundles, as the same thing. So even Mr Ingram uses two different words for the same thing. He describes his found money as: black bills were what would have been on top and the bottom of each bundle ... and ... but there was evidence of rubber bands on the top and bottom bills of each three packets. From this it is clear Brian's found money does not fit the new proposed model FJ, OleMiss, and Chaucer have been pushing. Brian's money consisted of three bundles each bundle wrapped in rubber bands. That is the architecture previously suggested. Brian's comments posted are as follow - Doc1 Brian Ingram reply to Joe Halliday: The black bills were what would have been on top and the bottom of each bundle, yes, they were black when I found them. As far as the dark line, its hard for me to tell from the picture, but there was evidence of rubber bands on the top and bottom bills of each three packets. Each piece even fragments were inspected and dusted for fingerprints, they were done by an agent by the name of Max Jarrell. That’s (the) MJ initial on all of the bills and small pieces. Max passed two years ago due to Covid. He and his wife Roni became close friends with my family and I had the opportunity to ask him questions, and one of the questions “was each bill inspected for fingerprints and Max said yes, extensively.” Doc 2 Brian Ingram to Joe Halliday: The bills were stuck together, so my mother soaked one of them in fabric softener, which allowed them to come apart into individual bills. Then when separating them the bill became less dark as you got closer to the middle. The picture only shows three, but there were But there were several dark ones. She then took a couple of the less of darker bills and put them in bleach water solution for a few minutes, that brought it back to the original color. No Joe keep in mind. This is all done a few days prior to us, finding out the historical value of the find.

The Washougal is a metamorphic area where silver mining occurred for generations vs. the region further north including Tena Bar which is sedimentary. We thought if the money had spent time in the Washougal it might have picked up silver grains. Finding those Ag grains between the bills would have basically proved the money spent time in the Washougal basin/river. The Washougal River has a higher density of silver, copper, and gold particles vs the Columbia. The FBI Lab documented only Columbia river sand between the bills vs any Washougal type geology. The silver nitrate method usually sprays the item in question vs soaking it. A covered shielded vent hood is employed because the substance is poisonous. Early astronomers used silver nitrate to coat metal and glass optics and quickly learned the substance was toxic and dangerous! Silver nitrate reacts with the salts (chlorides) in body sweat and finger prints . Most crime labs still have strict protocols for handling silver nitrate ... There is an FBI information bulletin on silver nitrate testing, likewise this: https://knowledge.carolina.com/discipline/interdisciplinary/development-of-latent-fingerprints-with-silver-nitrate/

somebody chase Kaye down for answers to all of these questions! Tom had been looking for particles of Ag on the money due to the Washougal theory - Washougal silver bearing region. Then the whole bill lit up with Ag in eds tests. Something was going on ................... somebody told Tom about silver nitrate testing ........................ Gray was probing to find out what was going on and contacted me ................. I didnt know what to say so said something about possibly 'two types of silver' and Gray went nuts with that! ............................... I never did know the full story. But Gray was complicating everything for Tom trying to get a 'scoop' on the money news .............. silver nitrate testing by the FBI became the favored explanation for why some bills were black ... I dont know what further testing Tom did ? I backed out because of Gray to give Tom privacy and room to deal with Gray's intrusions....

wow - this is all new to me. Someone told Tom the blackness was silver nitrate testing for prints by the FBI Lab - that may have come from Carr? - Tom mentions that on his website. So all of that (silver nitrate testing by FBI) is wrong ? Wait a minute..... those black bills lit up like Christmas for Ag under Tom's eds testing ??? Thats a strong indication for silver (Ag) . There is no question about those black bills lighting up for Ag ........ thats no accident. Tom couldnt understand why at first until Carr? told him it was the FBI's silver nitrate finger print testing. Brian seems to have another story for print testing? I hope he knows what he's talking about - has Brian ever talked to Tom about this ? Has Tom seen these articles ????? This is all new so far as I know ? ......... Pat mentioned fabric softer, bleach, and dish soap to me. I laughed when she said that because it was obvious they were really doing a cleaning job on that money! Brian says there were bands on the top and bottom bills, of his 'bundles' his word? Here we go again. How big were his 'bundles' if thats the correct word? Is Brian saying there were six bills in his money with bands on them ? I have Toms eds work - have posted some of it before. That is Tom's personal proprietary work so I had to be careful what I posted... Tom didnt seem to object. No question that his black bill lit up like a roman candle for Ag ... that is where the silver nitrate saga in our lives began! Truth is we were a little embarrassed we didnt make the connection quicker... Its late... I hope Tom has seen what has been posted here ? Congratulations to you guys! wow! I had no idea Brian had been interviewed about these technical details before...

You seem to be in contact with Carr ? Did Carr ever interview Patrician Ingram about the money find ? I know he talked to her about rubber bands vs paper straps. What else did he ask her? Would Carr be willing to publish his interview of Pat Ingram?

This is a memo from ASAC Paul Bibler ? Who is ASAC Bibler? Why is he involved in the flight path issue? And why does this memo justify Ulis redrawing the whole flight path !? Does this memo prove anything? Did this memo cause anyone to alter the flight path in spite of others working on the flight path? This memo is only "rumor" ? Why should anyone take this seriously?

I am guessing that if paper straps had been part of the equation when Tom ran his rubber band-water tests on bills, he would have included tests using paper straps also. He didn't. My guess is Tom was operating under the assumption that rubber bands only bound the original money into bundles, given to Cooper. Guessing is all we have in this affair. I think its worth keeping in mind that paper straps and rubber bands could never have been long term restraints holding the money together against the forces of Nature. Some other factor contributes to the Ingram money being together to be found at all in 1980. Tom Kaye says the bands were, quote: "dollar bills still had intact rubber bands ..." BTW, my involvement in this case was only supposed to last six months - colleagues remind me!

So it appears nobody really knows how the money was packaged except that there were 'bank type bands' and rubber bands, in some configuration .... except Flyjack knows the exact form based on other documents which are the only authoritative source. Except that smaller bundles were bound with paper straps, and those bundles were rubber banded together in a larger stack of bundles. That still leaves only a few bills whose faces or backs could be exposed to rubber bands .... and the Ingram find includes at least one of those rare bills! Maybe one end of what was once a larger stack of bundles .... It seems doubtful the Ingrams could have picked bands off more than one one bill. I wish the Ingrams hadnt picked the bands off that bill, or bills! Does anyone know what the serial number of that bill was?

There it is! The FBI said it was in the same serial order as given to Cooper. I guess FJ's quotes from newspapers and files is the best that can be done. Unless Carr decides to break his silence. Whatever the case at least one bill the Ingram's found was a bill with a face side/rubber band interface. That's one out of 9,999 bills. Possibly 1/08 bills, or 1/20 bills, or who knows what. This is going nowhere. Tnx.

One more time. Is this the version of the money packaging you accept? Yes or No.

I am staying for the foreseeable future - answer my question about the money! ??? I am not alone here. Another is following this nonsense. He is versed in statistics. Odds of a bill-band interface are a function of the packaging of the money. In this new package format, what are the odds of a package getting to TBar that would include a bill-band interface? That may depend in part on how the money was packaged - that is why money packaging may be important. Odds may also be a function of method of arrival: washup, buried by someone, dredging, . . . Its been a long day .......... pse stop the flowers ........ answer the money questions? Anyone!

OK. please post a picture of your version of the money packages. (Is the Ole Miss picture I am attaching the same as your version) I want to know exactly what we are dealing with here. ? 5 bundles per rubber banded package? There would have been only 4 rubber banded packages equals $200,000.00. Correct? How many were there? How much per 'bundle' or package, or whatever word you use for the smallest packages! Is there any FBI document that clearly says it has the serial numbers for each package. Of the total list of serial numbers do we know the serial numbers of all Ingram bills that were found .... to a reasonable limit. I know the total list does not exist, and the auction company identified a few more serial numbers ... Do we have the serial numbers of all bills in each of the five or whatever number packages (strapped with paper bands and rubber bands) ? I want to know which of these packages the Ingrams found. Do we know,? Does FJ know? Does anyone know?

Tina and others used different words for the money packages. Surely you know that. The fact is until Tina is asked directly what she saw, everyone is guessing. I will say this again. The GENESIS of my issue about how the money was packaged, is Larry Carr, and to a lesser extent TK. That is my only stake in this whole matter ............... I have said this endlessly. Do you now understand ? Apparently FJ still does not understand or care. Had Carr and Kaye not researched this independently I would have no stake whatever in this matter! But I am not going to hold the forum back or make accusations at people because of it! That is ridiculous and a complete waste of time.

I dont want to see FJ leave or be forced out. He has too much to contribute. Its the research that matters! If we could just stay focused ????????

What a bunch of BS. You are an idiot FJ. What office are you running for that you feel compelled to attack others ? So tell us, FJ: why did Carr suddenly question the form of the money back in 2010 that compelled him to call Brian and Pat Ingram out of the blue, asking about paper vs rubber bands? Yes. Its common knowledge that the form of the money could have something to do with the means by which money wound up on TBar - or it could not. For example, dredges simply chew up anything in their path and the form of the money could be a mute point. It was Carr who set this issue up to solve back in 2010, not me! The issue has lingered to this very day, due to the lack of something definitive everyone could agree on. Tina gave other descriptions for the money using different words in addition to the phrase you cite. and you know that! Flyjack, who set you up to be the judge of people or anything, for any reason? This isn't Fklyjack Court! This is a discussion forum! Get over yourself. The issue is: banks normally follow set routines in packaging money. We were told by Agent Carr back in 2008-10 that the Cooper ransom was assembled hastily and used a nonstandard form of packaging due to security and time constraints. You say none of that is true! Tell us or show us where Carr went wrong ! This isnt even my personal problem! This is an historical problem and a Carr and a Kaye problem ... in case you havent noticed. Tell us how many Ingram bills had rubber bands pieces plucked off of them!? You can cite any passage you want! Find us something Tina said about that! Do you finally get it! ? ? ? [this is my class you asshole - if you dont like it, leave!]

I am tired of waiting on Cooper Cons. 50 years has already passed. OK, so we will take your description as gospel. Anything to stop the bickering.

You left out the word 'know' in your last sentence - your Holiness. I don't KNOW of anyone else in the Vortex who has just made up evidence and been so wrong.. it is though he is stuck in 2011.

Truth is I am not sure now. My problem is I thought the money packaging issue was settled clear back in 2010 ? I thought Carr settled the issue after interviewing a bank employee, and how the money was packaged (in roughly $2000 bundles), and paper straps or rubber bands, or both. I wont bore anyone by repeating the story. But I truly have been operating for years on the assumption that issue was resolved in favour of rubber bands vs paper straps_ until FLYJACK got involved with his word mining psycho clairvoyance examining two of Tina's words while ignoring every other utterance Tina ever said on the money subject! I am unsure today what Tom Kaye thinks, or believes. Likewise Larry Carr. Neither have stated what they believe currently, and any details they could share. It is the lack of critical people speaking on subjects like this that is a large part of the problem. It never has been that I am wedded to one theory vs another come hell or high water .... its that I thought this issue was resolved clear by in 2010 by Agent Carr. This was all based on not only what I thought Carr was saying back in 2010, but also on what Pat and Brian Ingram were telling me since it was Brian and Pat Ingram who told me directly that Carr had called them suddenly and was asking about paper vs rubber bands! I will say this to my friend Chaucer whom I respect. I would be very hard pressed to accept what some guy thinks he felt 'in his lap' as he carried a bag of money bound for the airport. Who could accept that as evidence? Seriously! I wish Carr or Kaye would finally just state what they know or dont know. That is my present stance on this whole matter. I have nothing better to offer. Thats the best I can do. I am willing to accept paper straps or whatever, if its based on real evidence like a statement from the bank employees who prepared the money ! Tina Mucklow saw the money. She has never been asked what she saw .... but she was able to describe Cooper's bomb down to the colors of wires and where they attached in his device! 50 years and counting! WTF is that!?

........................... nice work.

........................ nice work!

............. nice work