georger

wow - this is all new to me. Someone told Tom the blackness was silver nitrate testing for prints by the FBI Lab - that may have come from Carr? - Tom mentions that on his website. So all of that (silver nitrate testing by FBI) is wrong ? Wait a minute..... those black bills lit up like Christmas for Ag under Tom's eds testing ??? Thats a strong indication for silver (Ag) . There is no question about those black bills lighting up for Ag ........ thats no accident. Tom couldnt understand why at first until Carr? told him it was the FBI's silver nitrate finger print testing. Brian seems to have another story for print testing? I hope he knows what he's talking about - has Brian ever talked to Tom about this ? Has Tom seen these articles ????? This is all new so far as I know ? ......... Pat mentioned fabric softer, bleach, and dish soap to me. I laughed when she said that because it was obvious they were really doing a cleaning job on that money! Brian says there were bands on the top and bottom bills, of his 'bundles' his word? Here we go again. How big were his 'bundles' if thats the correct word? Is Brian saying there were six bills in his money with bands on them ? I have Toms eds work - have posted some of it before. That is Tom's personal proprietary work so I had to be careful what I posted... Tom didnt seem to object. No question that his black bill lit up like a roman candle for Ag ... that is where the silver nitrate saga in our lives began! Truth is we were a little embarrassed we didnt make the connection quicker... Its late... I hope Tom has seen what has been posted here ? Congratulations to you guys! wow! I had no idea Brian had been interviewed about these technical details before...

You seem to be in contact with Carr ? Did Carr ever interview Patrician Ingram about the money find ? I know he talked to her about rubber bands vs paper straps. What else did he ask her? Would Carr be willing to publish his interview of Pat Ingram?

This is a memo from ASAC Paul Bibler ? Who is ASAC Bibler? Why is he involved in the flight path issue? And why does this memo justify Ulis redrawing the whole flight path !? Does this memo prove anything? Did this memo cause anyone to alter the flight path in spite of others working on the flight path? This memo is only "rumor" ? Why should anyone take this seriously?

I am guessing that if paper straps had been part of the equation when Tom ran his rubber band-water tests on bills, he would have included tests using paper straps also. He didn't. My guess is Tom was operating under the assumption that rubber bands only bound the original money into bundles, given to Cooper. Guessing is all we have in this affair. I think its worth keeping in mind that paper straps and rubber bands could never have been long term restraints holding the money together against the forces of Nature. Some other factor contributes to the Ingram money being together to be found at all in 1980. Tom Kaye says the bands were, quote: "dollar bills still had intact rubber bands ..." BTW, my involvement in this case was only supposed to last six months - colleagues remind me!

So it appears nobody really knows how the money was packaged except that there were 'bank type bands' and rubber bands, in some configuration .... except Flyjack knows the exact form based on other documents which are the only authoritative source. Except that smaller bundles were bound with paper straps, and those bundles were rubber banded together in a larger stack of bundles. That still leaves only a few bills whose faces or backs could be exposed to rubber bands .... and the Ingram find includes at least one of those rare bills! Maybe one end of what was once a larger stack of bundles .... It seems doubtful the Ingrams could have picked bands off more than one one bill. I wish the Ingrams hadnt picked the bands off that bill, or bills! Does anyone know what the serial number of that bill was?

There it is! The FBI said it was in the same serial order as given to Cooper. I guess FJ's quotes from newspapers and files is the best that can be done. Unless Carr decides to break his silence. Whatever the case at least one bill the Ingram's found was a bill with a face side/rubber band interface. That's one out of 9,999 bills. Possibly 1/08 bills, or 1/20 bills, or who knows what. This is going nowhere. Tnx.

One more time. Is this the version of the money packaging you accept? Yes or No.

I am staying for the foreseeable future - answer my question about the money! ??? I am not alone here. Another is following this nonsense. He is versed in statistics. Odds of a bill-band interface are a function of the packaging of the money. In this new package format, what are the odds of a package getting to TBar that would include a bill-band interface? That may depend in part on how the money was packaged - that is why money packaging may be important. Odds may also be a function of method of arrival: washup, buried by someone, dredging, . . . Its been a long day .......... pse stop the flowers ........ answer the money questions? Anyone!

OK. please post a picture of your version of the money packages. (Is the Ole Miss picture I am attaching the same as your version) I want to know exactly what we are dealing with here. ? 5 bundles per rubber banded package? There would have been only 4 rubber banded packages equals $200,000.00. Correct? How many were there? How much per 'bundle' or package, or whatever word you use for the smallest packages! Is there any FBI document that clearly says it has the serial numbers for each package. Of the total list of serial numbers do we know the serial numbers of all Ingram bills that were found .... to a reasonable limit. I know the total list does not exist, and the auction company identified a few more serial numbers ... Do we have the serial numbers of all bills in each of the five or whatever number packages (strapped with paper bands and rubber bands) ? I want to know which of these packages the Ingrams found. Do we know,? Does FJ know? Does anyone know?

Tina and others used different words for the money packages. Surely you know that. The fact is until Tina is asked directly what she saw, everyone is guessing. I will say this again. The GENESIS of my issue about how the money was packaged, is Larry Carr, and to a lesser extent TK. That is my only stake in this whole matter ............... I have said this endlessly. Do you now understand ? Apparently FJ still does not understand or care. Had Carr and Kaye not researched this independently I would have no stake whatever in this matter! But I am not going to hold the forum back or make accusations at people because of it! That is ridiculous and a complete waste of time.

I dont want to see FJ leave or be forced out. He has too much to contribute. Its the research that matters! If we could just stay focused ????????

What a bunch of BS. You are an idiot FJ. What office are you running for that you feel compelled to attack others ? So tell us, FJ: why did Carr suddenly question the form of the money back in 2010 that compelled him to call Brian and Pat Ingram out of the blue, asking about paper vs rubber bands? Yes. Its common knowledge that the form of the money could have something to do with the means by which money wound up on TBar - or it could not. For example, dredges simply chew up anything in their path and the form of the money could be a mute point. It was Carr who set this issue up to solve back in 2010, not me! The issue has lingered to this very day, due to the lack of something definitive everyone could agree on. Tina gave other descriptions for the money using different words in addition to the phrase you cite. and you know that! Flyjack, who set you up to be the judge of people or anything, for any reason? This isn't Fklyjack Court! This is a discussion forum! Get over yourself. The issue is: banks normally follow set routines in packaging money. We were told by Agent Carr back in 2008-10 that the Cooper ransom was assembled hastily and used a nonstandard form of packaging due to security and time constraints. You say none of that is true! Tell us or show us where Carr went wrong ! This isnt even my personal problem! This is an historical problem and a Carr and a Kaye problem ... in case you havent noticed. Tell us how many Ingram bills had rubber bands pieces plucked off of them!? You can cite any passage you want! Find us something Tina said about that! Do you finally get it! ? ? ? [this is my class you asshole - if you dont like it, leave!]

I am tired of waiting on Cooper Cons. 50 years has already passed. OK, so we will take your description as gospel. Anything to stop the bickering.

You left out the word 'know' in your last sentence - your Holiness. I don't KNOW of anyone else in the Vortex who has just made up evidence and been so wrong.. it is though he is stuck in 2011.

Truth is I am not sure now. My problem is I thought the money packaging issue was settled clear back in 2010 ? I thought Carr settled the issue after interviewing a bank employee, and how the money was packaged (in roughly $2000 bundles), and paper straps or rubber bands, or both. I wont bore anyone by repeating the story. But I truly have been operating for years on the assumption that issue was resolved in favour of rubber bands vs paper straps_ until FLYJACK got involved with his word mining psycho clairvoyance examining two of Tina's words while ignoring every other utterance Tina ever said on the money subject! I am unsure today what Tom Kaye thinks, or believes. Likewise Larry Carr. Neither have stated what they believe currently, and any details they could share. It is the lack of critical people speaking on subjects like this that is a large part of the problem. It never has been that I am wedded to one theory vs another come hell or high water .... its that I thought this issue was resolved clear by in 2010 by Agent Carr. This was all based on not only what I thought Carr was saying back in 2010, but also on what Pat and Brian Ingram were telling me since it was Brian and Pat Ingram who told me directly that Carr had called them suddenly and was asking about paper vs rubber bands! I will say this to my friend Chaucer whom I respect. I would be very hard pressed to accept what some guy thinks he felt 'in his lap' as he carried a bag of money bound for the airport. Who could accept that as evidence? Seriously! I wish Carr or Kaye would finally just state what they know or dont know. That is my present stance on this whole matter. I have nothing better to offer. Thats the best I can do. I am willing to accept paper straps or whatever, if its based on real evidence like a statement from the bank employees who prepared the money ! Tina Mucklow saw the money. She has never been asked what she saw .... but she was able to describe Cooper's bomb down to the colors of wires and where they attached in his device! 50 years and counting! WTF is that!?

........................... nice work.

........................ nice work!

............. nice work

............. nice work.

............... nice work!

................ nice work!

typo last paragraph ?

Yes, Ive heard and read this story before about the fist sized clump. But I forget who or where it came from. I know Dorwin confirmed it years ago. As far as I understand Dorwin, he has always believed the Ingram find was simply part of a larger surviving deposit across an area at Tena Bar. That is where his comment to Smith about there being thousands of pieces/shards comes from. And I know Dorwin hasnt changed his mind about any of this. Many people have called him and tried to argue with him about it ... but Dorwin is a very conservative-introspective guy and I believe he would not come to the view he has without there being evidence for it. It was Dorwin who decided to approach the dig from an archaeologist's point of view, based on his background and personal interests. It's too bad that fist sized clump and others like it werent saved. Tosaw had a similar view and he bugged the hell out of Dorwin and H at Portland - so much they finally assigned someone to 'handle' all of Tosaw's calls. But, Tosaw thought Cooper had dropped into the Columbia just south of Caterpillar Island. Based partly on the 'fist sized clump' story Tosaw hired guys to rototill a good part of Tena Bar. There were witnesses who called the Portland office and gave reports - several humorous accounts but nothing was found or Tosaw would have called reporters immediately. Pat told me directly that pieces of paper cane off when several pieces of the band were removed. They were concerned! They told the brother to stop at first. The whole point at the time was to clean the money up as best they could for presentation to a bank for redemption. The Cooper case wasn't even in their thoughts. They wondered if the money was a part of some burglary and Harold expressed that concern to others at his work who told Harold to call the Sherriff's office, which he finally did, but he was then told to call the FBI, which at length he did! The FBI asked him for serial numbers but didnt commit to anything. Hearing nothing Harold called the FBI back .... and suddenly he had an appointment with them - it was a shock! Had Harold not called back the FBI would have gone out and found him. I have no idea where Tom got his version of the Ingram money. I dont even know if Tom ever talked to Pat Ingram. He talked to Brian multiple times but he said Brian didnt know anything. Go back and view the press conference photo of the Ingrams with H at the Portland office. That money spread out on the table and photographed is literally what the Ingrams presented the FBI in a sandwich bag, literally. You are seeing exactly what the Ingrams presented in the form they presented it in ......... brought in in a sandwich bag! That minus four bills they held back as souvenirs, until Crystal Ingram called H and arranged to bring in four more bills for the Ingrams! So, in addition to the groups of bills shown in the press photo, the Ingrams had managed to separate four single bills which they kept for themselves until Crystal Ingram made H aware. Its late.

Pat never mentioned clumps of anything. BTW I asked Brian if he remembered anything about this, he didnt, he referred me to his mother... The important point is: the number of bills surfaces that can have bands touching the bill surface at all ... is a direct function of how the bills are packaged. Thats just an immutable fact. For the Ingram to have encountered any bill that had bands stuck to its surface, is remarkable at all! The Probability plummets as more bundles are stacked on top of each other. Remember, part of the story is as pieces of band were pulled off, bill paper came with it in some cases. That is surface of bills not sides of stacked bills.

Surfaces of bills only .... sides of bills was never mentioned or brought up. There wouldnt be much of a 'side' to work with. They found 3 groups of bills each group stuck or cemented (Kaye language) together. Read Kayes website....