georger

Sluggo says the NWA 727-51 is a 727-100. So I guess the seating chart I posted would apply. I guess. I dont know anything about thes aircraft. One reson I thought Kaye's photo shows a seat at the very back of the aircraft, in a last row of seats?, is because behind the seat with the #6 sticker on it, is a space with a door, a closet or lav, but no more seats show behind that row of seats? I guess there could be more seats behind that door space ???? But I assume this seats are at the back of the plane. And I definately see only two seats -not three in the row. There is more than enough space in the photo for another seat, if one was there, in a row of three seats as per the 727-100 seating plan ??? Again: Ckrets evidence location profile is as follows: "tie laying in seat 18E - empty belly container laying on the floor in front of 18D - unaltered backpack (Pioneer) sitting in seat 18B -pink chute laying across seats 17c and 17b - " Three items found in row 18 at 18B, D, and E. So it looks as if there was activity in and around the 18B-E area. Ckret got his info from the 302's, just like Kaye. Unlike Kaye, however, just because evidence was found in seats 18D, 18B, 17C and 17B, Ckret does not assume or say Cooper sat in any of these seats at any time, even if he did. My supposition is Cooper took off the tie as he was preparing to put on a chute, in the same area. But mine is just a guess, not a statement of fact.

That is very plausible imo.

I think it likely that Almstad actually said, "I think it was a man,". Note that the statement is nonsense as it stands. The reporter or typist or typesetter probably just left out a word. I think, Almstad was saying (in effect) that he couldn't tell whether it was a man or a woman he saw carrying the bag. I saw that missprint (??) also. I cant mind meld with it -

Whoever wrote Toms website says verbatum: (a) "Cooper sat in seat 18E (Fig. 1), all the way in the back on the right side of the plane. (b) ""According to the FBI 302's, the black tie was found on his seat cushion - 18E." Tom/Carol do not say: "According to the FBI 302's, Cooper sat is seat 18E." If it matters, Ckret said: Ckret Jun 9, 2008, 4:23 PM Post #2319 of 32296 (5639 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 522 Re: [bigway] More tie details? placement/location? [In reply to] ________________________________________ Evidence as it was found on the plane: Clip-on tie with tie clasp on the tie, laying in seat 18E. Empty belly container laying on the floor in front of 18D. Pink chute laying across seats 17c and 17b. Unaltered backpack (Pioneer) sitting in seat 18B. _________________________________________ The only proof I can find on Tom Kaye's Science Team website, that Cooper sat in 18E, is the statemenL "It would seem obvious that Cooper left his tie on his seat (he sat in)," That may seem obvious to Tom & Carol, but that is not proof or a source ... I think we are justifiably entitled at this point to assume Tom and Coral have no proof of their assertion Cooper sat in 18E. Its nothing more than an assumption they make. The probability analysis they include does not even address this point - In the meantime there are numerous official and semi-official sources which say Cooper sat in 18C. Neither Tom or anyone else say that any FBI 302 says that Cooper sat in 18E, that Tina or Flo specified that ... ? Im just curious why its so obvious to Tom and Carol? As before, I doubt they will even answer - It is worth noting, the back of that plane was a very tight space, relatively speaking. Not a lot of room to move around in - most the space occupied by seats. Ckret's listing of seats where evidence was found tends to illustrate that fact. Maybe the lack of space is one reason Tom speculates: "It would seem obvious that Cooper left his tie on his seat (he sat in),". Who knows and does it even matter?

We have been saying Cooper sat is 18C. Most of the socalled official publications and the FBI including Larry Carr have been saying, 18C. Tom Kaye says it was 18E. based on FBI 302's he has read ! Quote: "2. Cooper sat in seat 18E (Fig. 1), all the way in the back on the right side of the plane. According to the FBI 302's, the black tie was found on his seat cushion - 18E." http://www.citizensleuths.com/coopers-tie.html Kaye even has a photo of the seat - notice there is no window next to his seat as per allegations Cooper moved over to look out "his" window' while on the ground at SEA? Must have been some other window because there is no window close to his seat, on his side of the plane. And right side of the plane now means 'right' looking forward from the back, which contradicts another socalled official account. The photo of his seat is not like the seating plan I previously posted - notice the number 18 on the AC dispenser just above the seat which identifies the row of these two seats ... Maybe Kaye really does have an edge on this case and the rest of us are just wasting our time ? I assume the photo of seat 18E Tom has put up on his website is an FBI photo? Look at that cheezy paneling and formica - talk about 'cut rate'! Who was their interior designer?

Did or…. do or…… have…… you ever, read anything that you link, Here is a link to the 'brought money on' claim - http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/08/04/bay- area-man-on-d-b-cooper-flight-recalls-hijacking/ Quote: The plane then landed and taxied to a remote part of the airport. According to Almstad, a refueling truck pulled up, along with a bus, and people came on board. “Then a guy, I it was a man, came walking down the aisle with a white sack. To me, it looked like a pillow slip, and it had all these jagged points in it. And I remember the thought I had, that looks like bricks in it, or a bag of money, I thought,” Almstad said." So according to Almstad, Tina did not bring the money on, and it came on before the passengers were off. ???

Source? What source? He didn't give one. I took a guess he was talking about passenger Labissoniere, due to the bathroom reference. He's one of the witnesses mentioned in Gray's book, page 94 or so. My first reaction was, JT was talking about Simons - but I was wrong. The fact is there must have been a line at the rear just before landing at SEA, all headed to the lav.. Funny. Simons, Almstad, Labissoniere ... thats a nice bunch of prints to confirm and sort out (from Coop's, in one location) for that flight alone. Gray says little about the printing ...? I wonder why.

I have copies of your photos also. My United Airlines (versions) come from: http://boardingarea.com/blogs/frequentlyflying/2011 /10/12/vintage-airline-seat-map-united-airlines- boeing-727-100-from-1978/ and a related url. I dug deeper and found the two versions I posted. Cooper's plane was a 727-100, not 727-200 (doc Sluggo/Snowmman). However, it appears different airlines installed different seating patterns according to their needs. I have found many NWA 727-200 seating charts, but not any for a NWA 727-100, especially for n467us Cooper's plane. The UA 727-100 charts come as close as anything I have ever found to the FBI's description of Cooper's seat, its location, etc ... That is all I know.

Quote Is the chart UA727-100-II correct so far as you know? Or was there another row behind as in chart UA727-100 ? Where is the galley that was in shambles?

Hmmm, Jerry's comment said Jack was sitting across from Cooper, the video interview Jack says he was one row behind him on the right side? I thought the "painter" was sitting across from Cooper able to get a good look at him? It was light rain.....it was heavy rain. winds from the east...winds from the west? Cooper is 35...no 45....Cooper is in his 50's? 36 passengers? nope 37? Wikipedia Cooper was in seat 18-c Yahoo news The last row, 18, starboard side. The hijacker sat here, in seat 18-E. Here ya go - hot off the Franco-Pamadjeon press, as it were. Quote: : The passenger in seat 15D On the day before Thanksgiving in 1971, a man who identified himself as Dan Cooper (a journalist erred in reporting his name as “D. B.,” and it was never cleared up) was one of thirty-six passengers who boarded Northwest Airlines flight 305. The plane, a Boeing 727, was headed from Portland, Oregon, to Seattle, Washington—a flight that would normally take less than one hour. Shortly after takeoff, when the plane had climbed to thirty thousand feet, the passenger in seat 15D gave one of the two stewardesses a note. As purloined from: http://www.bookrags.com/research/d-b-cooper-omc/ On the other hand one of the attached may depicts Cooper's plane and seat. Im not sure. Maybe an expert could finally confirm ad post a chart? Oh! Cooper sat in 18C. Correction* quote: "Taking the middle seat in the last row on the right side of the plane was, seat 18c, that was the seat identified as Cooper's seat ... right as you are facing the back of the plane... " good luck -

I caught that too - hmmmmmm.

You're good, unless your waist is bigger than your chest. Then a wide tie will have a slimming effect. Matt or a thin tie will provide an incentive ?

I kept all my broad wool ties, inherited from my Dad. You never know when you might be called upon to bomb Germany and Japan again, in a B17 or B29! or sell them on eBay to buy food! (or pay Col Sanders' inflated baby chicken prices) Go into a men's clothing store today and see what you find ...

Skinny, black ties being unusual in 1971 is one such example. Skinny ties were probably the norm here in 1971- just further proof that leCoopre was Franco- DesMoinian or PrarieduChen with no accent. Definately Franco-Midwestern, with a copy of Tom Sawyer in his brown paper bag. Huck Finn never wore no stinkin tye! You could have separated the generations in 1971 (around here) by thin vs wide old ties - WWII & older vs. Post WWII generation ...

That sounds like a confirmation to me. It didn't take a brainiac to figure out which witness, Jerry. Only SOME people on the plane actually noticed Cooper. The FBI took statements from everybody and printed everybody. Only a certain number were able to give any description of the hijacker. When you mentioned the bathroom, there was only ONE witness who said he saw Cooper either coming or going...Labissoniere. His info is totally public. Personally, I think Jack Almstad is a better witness. He says Cooper actually smiled at him after he made a joke about if they stayed in the air much longer (circling Seattle) that they might have to serve Thanksgiving dinner. His info is freely available. Phone and address in Livermore, CA are listed. This is really getting complicated, with latter day revisionist recantations, of the Franco-Pamadjeon kind. Maybe someday you folks will read the thread? From former post, quoted: georger Jun 10, 2008, 12:46 AM Post #2337 of 32264 (5457 views) Registered: May 25, 2008 Posts: 4826 Re: [Ckret] Interview with Tina's stepmom on 11/26/71 [In reply to] Quote | Reply ------------------------------------------------------------ In Reply To ------------------------------------------------------------ When the passengers were taken off of the plane they were escorted to a VIP lounge. Only five of the 35 passengers took notice of Cooper or that there may be a problem other than what was announced by the crew. They are as follows: Mr Gregory Mr Labissoniere Mr Spreckel Mr Williams Mrs House The remaining 30, to include the Simons, stated they knew of nothing other than what the crew had advised them nor did they notice Cooper. I guess a few minutes a fame changed the Simons' mind. ------------------------------------------------------------ Maybe the dna of Mr. Simons should have been taken from the Lav to refresh his mind! [end of quotation] Simons recanted and had a lot to say later (not in his original testimony even remotely!) - Almstad is now recanting with the able help of JT and EVicki and Mr Shutter all of who have a BIG AGENDA too!? Gray supposedly gets his quotes from the files of the FBI as to what each witness said or did not say. How does that match with what Agent Carr said? Tom and Carol read the same files - What say yee Tom? Are we HOT or COLD? Or just fucked? Morever Tom wants to mix and match now, compare former testimony with current testimony. That he assumes will yield a reliable .... something-er-other. Well, it wont pass statistical muster! Finger prints were taken from the lav. Were the finger prints of those who visited the lav found? What about that in the files? Are all the previous original files on this case even at the Seattle office to be searched today? Researcher, Geoff Gray, would literally have us believe there was such inconsistency in physiscal reports by witnesses that no physical profile ever existed, in reality, or is possible at this late date. That is the clear force of Gray's testimony in his book, having read the FBI files he found. So what, precisely, does Gray propose be done? What is his solution? Tom can you speak for Gray. Of course not. Gray can ride four Clydales abreast. He just cant tell us what it feels like, or what it means !

Your recitation of Gray impressed me - you nailed it. I think you are probaby correct about the rest. Others needed a refresher course, I guess.

Are we back on track ?

Ok, thanks. I have received a message of clarification, from someone I believe to be trustworthy. I will simply take a back seat and let you folks proceed, as you wish. I appreciate the message. Thanks. G. [edit] One caveat. You folks surely underdstand the pressure which will be on you now, since JT posted about this last night. Unless you folks are prepared to give a new description (revised descrption) of Cooper based on the new witness, or something useful from this witness which is germane to this thread, I cant quite underdstand why you posted at all about this matter here. But I just work here! ]

it's not Mrs Hutter it's Mr Shutter (long story) Dave Very good. You and Jerry Thomas (of Cooper folklore, fame, and claims) announced last night here, a brand new Rosetta Stone in the DB Cooper case. May we see it? Hear it? Touch it? Come to know its marvels and special message? Tom Kaye has even broken his secret silence to ask you & Jerry bring us back on the right track ? How any asses do we have to kiss to get you and Jerry to say something now that you have yelled "FIRE" in this theatre, which is well-covered by national news media? Pardon my skepticism but Ive been through this kind of 'marvel' with Mr. Thomas many times before. Where's the beef? (or even a bean sprout) Do you know the correct equations to apply when trying to calculate the aeuronautical paramaters of an hypothetical snail phart, in F#? And most importantly of all! Is it covered in one of Weinberg's Dan Cooper comics, on Franco-Shemya? But of even more importantia! Now that Ive set the stage and given you the introduction you wanted- expected, please continue. Dont slink back into triple dread-naught Level-12 KFC Col. Sanders secrecy... Ive made an ass out of myself precisely so y'awl can now be heroes and look smart. Please continue -

Oh gorsh! Is Simmons still alive! ? How many more cheap thrills can we stand? Mrs Hutter finds missing link!

Yes. I believe he has been interviewed before ... but ok. I will go back and read it again. does he look like Col. Sanders?

ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. ok. I will go back and read it again. . . .

vat info you talkingsh? you always have info - somewhere - nowhere - everywhere - nowhere - hidden - only you know.

Ok. Here is a new candidate. Im serious. This candidate is not a suspect but a person claiming "I was there. I knew Cooper". Send this photo to your guy, and let's see if "this guy" is "the guy" or what, as he claims? Photo atached - [Col Sanders]: was in charge of maintenance at his local KFC. Let go when they downsized their chicken.

I guess the thread has ended.