VectorBoy

If you want to peddle your services, sell your t-shirts, pack chutes, sell coffee, etc you need to go through the DZ. SDA and many other DZ's do not allow people to willy nilly set up shop and sell products or services without their consent. Yes most of the bigger DZ have consession "agreements" on all of the services provided and who is allowed as part of those consessions. I would be interested to hear the sentiment to someone doing free organizing , training & coaching there considering the fact that there is a wingsuit school. How an exception would be provided for? Is a wingsuit instructor readily available?

I agree with getting a little instruction. Its always better not to stumble along in a vacuum. But the first jump course is simply that one jump, about a minute of flight time. This does very little for subsequent jump learning curve. meanwhile I find that the guys that are "giving back" to the sport spend the whole day and are on those subsequent jumps helping with that learning curve. Few " this is what I do for living" types could afford to spend the whole rest of the day and be there on follow up jumps for free. Because the mentors are trying to develope a safe, local flock culture, one could almost describe it as an ongoing program. Don't get me wrong. Everybodys time is worth something. Nobody should feel they have to give it away. If there are costs in travel, equiptment, and time spent. Then it is fair to get a return. I don't expect anyone to work for free. I see plenty of organizers in all disciplines RW,FF and CReW is a supreme example, donating time and energy. Working very hard in scheduling logistics, cordination and yes even training to some degree. Sometimes their compensation is a slot covered and sometimes its nothing more than a groovy time with a bunch of locals that they wish to be an ongoing thing.

But then why wouldnt you just rent a C182 and borrow a rig, remove the door and jump? It would probably take you sometime, but you eventually get it right. And you probably think being a packer isn't either .... Not only is it a job its one of the hardest jobs on the DZ you earn every dollar. When it comes to packing for a living some people are hacks and others masters at their crafts with incomes that reflect this. But their services are again optional to the individual skydiver, who could....... should learn to pack their own gear. Who are you an apprentice to Glen? Just about everybody I fly with even if I'm teaching them something I'm usually learning something in the process...... And I never consider myself as their resident regional expert of the day.

We wouldn't need it if we jumped the parachutes as we did before you were even jumping. And who would this be? Quote I'll even be generous and go Five hours. The who would be most as in most of the instructor cadre ( I know you personnaly have quite a bit more- plus, you know others that I refer to are not as fortunate as you ) Definatly not the guy that got the rating without even owning his own suit. And not anybody that only does wingsuits on rare occasion.

In BASE, we've relatively recently had some wacko just start offering the formal instruction for free. Is this the equivalent of free FFC's? But I'm wondering if the two types can't coexist? This individual isn't Wacko unles the course is truelly unsafe and wacky, I doubt it is. I believe that both forms can ( and must, for the time being ) coexist. For the simple reason of accesability. Lack of uniformity in manufacturer recommendations. And lack of governing body intervention or involvement . The last sentence may not apply to all governing bodies. Yet this isn't good enough for some people. Its easy to say somebody else's program is unsafe but its damn hard to prove because of very exceptable( not perfect) historic incedent data. One side claims the other " outside the program" methods are unsafe. Factions outside this team claim this as a marketing ploys and not a safety concern. Which BTW is easier to prove considering we have a safe and steady healthy growth in wingsuiters coming newly trained from both areas. Yet its an exceptable practice for this faction to qualify low experience " instructors". In some cases very low in wingsuiting experience. Not really a sign of a "safety driven" protocal but more of a marketing pyramid sceme.

As far as the "its not your real job" arguement . If I chose my "real job" to be telemarketing would you be forced to float me a sale? If I chose my real job to be the guy in the mens bathroom with an array of colognes and linen towels, would you be compelled to drop a few coin in my tray because a chose to make that my "real" job? If I need an AFF instructor or tandem master, then yes I need to pay for that rated individual's organizational fees. Few ways around that . Wingsuiting instruction isn't a job. And there is is less than a handful of individuals that are true experts at it! When people start to realise we are all just a bunch of apprentices this forum will have a much better flow.

True, they aren't very hard to fly, but not teaching what to do when things go wrong can be ugly. Keepin' it safe... Ed We need mandatory canopy survival training. Very bad statistics, many excellent coaches available to make a positive effect. Still these services are optional. But we don't need mandatory wingsuit instruction. Damn near perfect record in the skydiving environment, very few skilled at the pay me a days wages for what would be the experience of a 10,000- 7,000- 5,000 or even 2,000 jumps in that exact discipline kind of instruction. How many people have even 2,000 wingsuit jumps.... not very many! Some instructors have less than a hundred jumps in wingsuits. Less than two hours in freefall with a wingsuit and now they want to be regarded as some kind of regional expert on wingsuit flight and its instruction? What would you say to a skilled craftsman that was charging you for their services when he told you that he has been doing this for two hours? How about a lawyer with that much court time? A dentist? A doctor, a brainsurgeon? Expert my ass! I AIN'T PAYING YOU jack is what you would say. You name them: Dave brown, Clint Clauson, Dan BC. ( insert famous name here ) they all have many , many thousands of jumps in their fields and can say they deserve the fees that their level or quality of instruction should get them. And their services are STILL optional, you can do it yourself through the school of the 10,000 jumps and hard knocks. Plus its just not legislation its still optional.

and Eloy, with a structured school and a ban on 'freelance mentoring'. This would work at Perris to but there is no structured wingsuit school or regularly available, dedicated wingsuit instructor there. This exact thing has been requested by Too many visitors who come to get top notch coaching in RW,FF and canopy flight but still can't get a first flight course. Years later nothing has changed. I heard of a guy that waited months for a jump with an individual from a recognized wingsuit program only to settle on a wingsuit "hook-up" from a loose band of traveling mentors with unquantifiable safety standards.

Well who doesn't? In fact now that I own his old suit I dress up like him all the time. Its close...well... except for the hair.

My wife said she'd be happy to discuss your opinions outside of this public forum Glen? Ed Attention, Attention ALL wingsuit forum shoppers: The proceding posts by Vectorboy were a mearly a tease, only a tease. Had this been actual personal attacks or gay bashing you would have been instructed to contact your moderator locally with your complaints. But this was only a tease, strictly a tease. We appologize for the interuption and now return you to your regular wingsuit forum shopping. Have a nice day.

If you want to give me the rundown on what you don't like here, send me a PM or email. No punch lists, no negative complaints by me. I'm pretty much outside the loop here. Where I belong. This forum is an ongoing discussion by many players ( some qualified and some NOT ) with twice as many opinions. The Majority see it one way and some others see it different hence I liberally use the word opinion instead of refering to it as hard and fast legislation or rocket science. BUT I know there is heated discussion behind the scenes based on tidbits that get floated my way on all kinds of related topics, none of the bulk though. I know some people take their slice of contribution in the expansion of wingsuit knowledge and excepted practices for the growth of our small niche in a dangerous sport "way too serious"! And themselves equally so " way too seriously"! The reality is there are precious few contributers on that level. Please don't let this infer that I am anti- establishment. I have my own small personal establishment to manage and absolutly no time whatsoever to be anti anything else or pro anything else. I "smell" the fear of advances and growth outside of what some consider the current excepted practices and beliefs. I know there is bias (* human nature, isn't it?) and disatisfaction ( refer back to *)BUT it still pains me to loose a cast member that has an opinion and something to contribute to this here wingsuit forum because said cast member is not happy because their opinion is that of the minority and they were made to feel exactly thus. Das all. Disclaimer: BTW I have no Idea what the issues were in the this case and can only speculate. BUT if i had to guess.......

Trying to keep the politics out of the forum seems pretty reasonable to me. It is a noble mission unless the suppression is one sided and some people believe it is. I imagine we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg and most of the hyjinx is happening via PMs behind the scenes. I'm sorry we are loosing any cast members. Collect 'em all be loyal to none and here for the fun! Glen.

Again, sorry for my lack of knowledge... Ed Bottoms usually play the innocent angel approach Ed. You've said too much already.

Ed. You are so much weirder than I ever imagined. I'll second that! First he's got that post with the straight jacket and black urethane restraining gear found in dark corners of Frisco's other,other nightlife just a few miles to the west. And now a post about cartoon boys dressing up as girls. Its all fun and games until he grows a mustache and dresses up like a motorcycle cop.

I have one friend that does jump a pull-out system with a wingsuit and another that wanted to try it with his pull-out for more flexibility on rig choice. Both had thousands of jumps at the time and were experienced. I stated that it is frowned apon BUT friend #1 says it works for him, your millage may vary. Friend #2 had a pilot chute in tow on the very first attempt. He had to reach back and pull the bridle at the apex of the PC to avoid a reserve ride. Imediatly after Friend # 2 proceded to modify his rig with a BOC for use with convertable system. Last I heard friend #1 has gone back to using his convertable system when using wingsuits and does not advocate the use of pull-outs with wingsuit despite it worked 100% of the time for him.

Max 220 while not trying to max just trying to catch somebody average is in the 140-150 range.

You forgot the category: I love my new job! BTW just got a new job and it rocks! I tell the the bosses I'm SOOO happy to be there just about everyday.

Well Perry are both of those your suits? Or is there a midget in the House?

Got a question, The S-3 in the overlay shot is not sized for the same owner of the V-1 is it? If its not its cheating from a planform size does matter prospective. If those wingsuits are sized for the same owner, well Dayum.

How many wingsuits do you need? Quote IMO one of each should cover it. The more you buy, the more "they" make. If we don't buy the wingsuits they will just go back to making RW suits or something. That won't do any of us any good. Silly question. Besides having a personnal fleet of extra suits is sometimes better than being the DZ's low cost "dealer".

Glen Who is "he"? Ed Why Ed I would say he is one lucky sumbitch! Seriously though, he is a nice guy, a visiting competent wingsuit pilot from the UK. He just made a mistake in donning his suit. Probably due to doing predominantly other types of jumps ( wingsuit currency ) for a period of time before coming out to Perris and hooking up with our group for some flocks. I wasn't there the day it happened but a very good friend of mine was up with him when the event took place. I talked to our visiting friend a few days later in depth about it in between our flocks. Its something we can all learn from. I can't recall his name exactly without double checking in my logbook. But then again enough has been said in regards to safety and training that a name isn't needed. He was not fond of the way the near incedent was reported, low lights without a complete understanding.

I know in the case of the one about a year ago he felt something strange after his bag was extracted and he gorilla gripped his risers, hanging with both hands until landing. The suit didn't take the stress one would think it would have been exposed to after pitching and just waiting.

Nice! Perry if you would be so kind to post a ton of picks for all of us lads that don't have the scratch to get one just yet ( and to tease the lucky bastards that have a few more weeks of wait time on their orders) I would be your buddy for life! And a special request for a V-1- S-3 overlay shot to compare planform since you will have a finalized production model. Let the games begin!

Nice job, Jump as many craft as you can I always say but I think Grey semi-based in Eloy did an ultralight exit. A low one too. Movie clip link is on this forum a few months back.

There is a large (bigger than S3) 'tail wing' at the bottom of the rig. Can you go into more detail here. Do you mean to say that this suits leg wings are vented ,like the Skyflyers and vampire, with a pass through to the back?