SafecrackingPLF

Welcome! Very happy to see you and others posting to this thread. According to the news, the find was about 2 weeks ago. I have no clue about the rest. I'm with you on the 45 minute thing. It takes 2 hours and 15 minutes to make the drive from Seattle to Vancouver. More if he left in the afternoon. Why not take the time to really search? Perhaps he was unprepared. Ckret, if you're reading, write me back and I'll arrange to get you some help in digging over the weekend. Some things don't add up, I agree. This seems to be a hasty move to the press without at least probing the DZ community. Further, if we could figure out the location of the find given his comments on TV, then locals could be there right now harassing the area. Valuable evidence needs to be secured. It's been well known that NO ONE is actually investigating the crime anymore. Despite the news reports, the scope of investigation was pretty much right here in his spare time. It's ashame. It will be even more tragic if they don't retrieve the container to at least verify if this is it or not.

The chute was deployed, not packed. If it was Cooper's chute, someone pulled the RC. Probably not a no-pull, which would then require that he died even though he pulled the RC. You're correct. If this is the area where Cooper landed, you're left with 2 choices: Somone found at least the $$ and then brought it to the river, or Cooper lived. All of this, of course, is speculation because no one has confirmed this is the chute.

Sluggo, I tried to figure out where Ckret was pointing. See attached where I think he's pointing to. There's a house and some clear cut area right about there. SCPLF

First, thank you much for joining the discussion. It's probably worth it to visit the thread every so often just to see what people are saying, and your opinions and insights are terrific, so keep posting. I notice what you're saying, he seems very elated. I would be cautiously optimistic if I were him. You're also right, it's ODD that he did not come here first to ask some simple questions. As for what he may have been thinking?? Hmmm... "Oh s***, this is unbelievable! I'm about to be world famous... uh oh, wait a second, if this is it, then that means.... ah dammit. Cooper lived" Okay okay, I'm stretching there... But if I feel like a kid on Christmas, just imagine how HE FEELS!!

Great post Sluggo! If the point you found is more accurate, then it's even a BETTER fit than the one I found. I was just eyeballing the KOIN graphic (and KOIN has been wrong before when it comes to this case)... The point you found is literally on line AB. For those that do not know, line AB refers to the January 1972 map constructed by the FBI in conjunction with a NW Pilot who had extensive skydiving experience and expertise. The findings were that line AB was the most probable drift path of Cooper. Point A was no-pull. Point B was if he pulled high. If Sluggo's parachute point is accurate, it's on the line which would imply (if this is the actual chute of course) that he pulled mid way (don't ask me to calculate the MSL on it) and that their original calculations of when/where he jumped were incredibly accurate. I have added the original FBI map that shows line AB. This is a scan of the actual map Ckret is pointing to in that Fox 13 screen shot Sluggo posted.

Could be a hoax. If so, it's a hoax that took some time before it came into fruition. The kids were playing around in a pile of dirt that was made when the property was scraped with a tractor to make way for a new road (or something to that effect). The dad evidently said he knew the tractor caught something but didn't know what it was. Then the kids were messing around and started yanking the chute out and pulled it all the way out of the mound. They then cut it and (apparently) phoned it into authorities (FBI). I'd spend a little more than 45 minutes going through that dirt. I'd get some people to help (hint) and I'd get the container and then make a reasonable effort to make sure there's no attache case or even a body.

Sorry for all the posts... I'm like a little kid opening Christmas gifts. I have pinpointed the approximate location of the Koin graphic I posted on #234. The graphic points to approximately N 45 56 15.00 W 122 32 42.35 That IS within the search zone. It's also smack dab in the center of the "most probable" landing point. The only thing I don't know is if the graphic is correct. This would be unbelievably coincidental if it's not his chute.... let's get the conatiner and find out!

No no... the kids/dad cut the chute. They could have, but did not, leave the chute intact. It was stuck in the dirt, so they cut it to free it. The rest of the container is in the ground. It's there. I'd volunteer to dig, but I'm thousands of miles away. I have a brother that could go help this weekend... Ckret, you should organize a dig so that it's not just you with a shovel out there. Plus, the kids would be on Spring Break and could point you in the right direction. With others, the container could be retrieved. This whole thing just goes to show you how big this case is in Clark County. It's one of the top 10 mysteries of the 20th century and it happened in little Clark County. It's in people's minds out there. Someone finds a parachute in any other area of the country and it's doubtful it makes it to the FBI... but here, it's the first thing people think of. Finding a body/money and then just doing nothing is almost infathomable to me.... if that turns out to be a probable occurance, then everyone will know who withheld the information (owner of the property). But, without a body attached to the container, then that scenario will be far fetched. If this turns out to be Cooper's chute, then we can say right now, it's not a no-pull. We can say that on two levels, the first is that the money can't get there by itself, and two (and more importantly) the chute was deployed, which is why they found it.

Carr basically said on national TV that the chute was found on the most "probable line" (line AB). I will add this, if that's true, then I would not, under any circumstances, completely rule out this chute without getting the container from the ground. It's just too coincidental. The reason it's so coincidental is that someone would have to jump there and leave their chute. Why jump there and why leave the chute? Not outside the scope of reason, but would be an odd find none the less if this wasn't Cooper's chute.

That's an EXCELLENT POINT. The only problem is, the dirt has already been disturbed from the tractor. The dirt is probably all mixed up now, so geologic layers wouldnt' be of much help. I have sent word to Ckret that he should have access to post and that there are countless DZ members with information and questions about the chute. I'm crossing my fingers that he'll open the email and come in when he gets a chance. I imagine his phone is ringing off the hook with this one.

I do not know how much time elapsed. I do know they were in a big hurry to get those to SeaTac. They were scrambling. No mention was ever made about them opening the chutes and repacking them. The dummy chute was seen as a hasty error by Ckret in his posts about the subject. Sluggo, in the picture you posted, his pen is pointing to Bald Mountain. The line he appears to point to is line AB. Line AB was the "most probable" drift line when Cooper jumped. Point A is at N 45 54 49.31 W 122 36 18.46 Point B is at N 45 56 46.40 W 122 32 56.32 without seeing the video you took this from, my guess is that he's showing how the find traces this line north and east, not necessarily "here's where the chute was found" The pen is approximately on Bald Mtn

Chest pack was a dummy training pack. Sluggo, I have a high res of the map he's pointing to. If I spend 5-10 minutes, I can give you an actual coordinate. You have my email, I would LOVE to get a high res sent to me. Jim, That was a question I was wondering... would the "serial" numbers appear on the canopy or the pack? Or both? And if they have a serial of the canopy, then they HAD to get it from Cossey, otherwise, they're doing like you said, opening it and repacking it (no way they did that).

I don't know how long the ban is in effect. I did send an email to him to let him know I had access... but I assumed, wrongly, that everyone would be back when I was.... There are others, such as Zing, who have zero access to the site. The whole thing was a big misunderstanding, and it was my fault for responding to people who were uninformed about the case to begin with.

I watched the video and two things really stood out to me... 1. They haven't even investigated this or retrieved the container and yet they're on TV. Part of me thinks it's irresponsible and part of me understands that it generates interest and tips from the public so it's understandable. 2. Where they're saying it was found is on the outer edge of the calculated LZ. Further, north-south wise, it would put the plane smack dab when they thought it most probable Cooper jumped. The video articulated that Carr was skeptical based on "other" stuff that he knows. I'm speculating that the other stuff he knows is that this location cannot explain the find in 1980 and that's the part that makes him skeptical. I'm skeptical, but for different reasons. I'm attaching the graphic that they showed on TV. It's not that clear, but fits what Jim already posted. Just so everyone here knows, I have never doubted the original FBI search area. There's no reason for me to believe he came down anywhere else.

People have said the serials do not match. I tried to find it, but could not. Ckret said the FBI had the serial numbers for the chutes. That was all I saw. Do the backpacks have serial numbers on them, or did Cossey give the FBI the numbers and then they figured out which one was missing?? Ckret said: The backback Cooper jumped with was an NB6 manufactured in 1959. If true, the chute that was found is too old. Ckret also said: In Cossey's statement to the FBI on 11/26/1971, 4th paragraph "...he described the missing back pack parachute as having a sage green nylon container, model NB6 with sage green nylon harness, which harness has no "D" rings to mount a chest pack." There was so much debate here whether it was a 28' round or a 26' conical.... wouldn't that debate be fairly pointless if Ckret posted the serial number of the chute? Wouldn't the serial number tell us what type of chute it was? I'm a little torn. Part of me wants to think this would be it, but the other part of me knows just because you find a chute doesn't mean it was Coopers. What makes me think is just how close this was to the LZ. If I were Ckret, I'd be double checking the facts... which it sounds like he's wanting to do, before actually going down there and doing some "real" work. The container is still in the ground.... why? How hard is it to spend half a day with some equipment and go through the piled dirt? Wouldn't it be more resposbible to do that then to go on TV and make national headlines if it's the wrong chute?

I take a day off and HOLY #$#$! From what I'm hearing regarding the location, it's not *exactly* in the FBI calculated LZ, but it's not that far away either. I need to know more about where this property is. Timeline does not seem to be an issue, and it's close enough to the LZ that it's not unquestionable or anything like that. The year of the chute... that's an old chute. Perhaps, just perhaps we know why someone was asking about Earl Cossey earlier this month! He's probably the first guy to talk to regarding the chute. It's still early, but this is the DZ community's baby now. Guys like me cannot determine if this is the chute. I will go on record though... if it turned out to be Cooper's chute, there's almost no doubt that he survived. That area feeds Merwin/Lewis River, and there's no way money would get to the 1980 location without help. If there's no bones near the chute, or teeth marks on the harness, then it would almost eliminate someone finding the money, which would then, in turn, mean that Cooper survived. Well, the phone calls I was going to make should be put on hold. I was going to call some people to find out why they were so sure of the timeline, but if this turns out to be the chute, it will match the timeline perfectly. Wow... guys, see what you can do... work your research magic. It may help if quade let's Ckret off early for "good behavior".

Ckret was kicked off. I was the only one who was let back on, but I was the only one who didn't address the mod. There are several people who are still not allowed to post, and I think Ckret would be one of them.

You're right, there is no evidence that Weber possessed such knowledge. She has said (from hearsay) that he worked as a ground crew for a few months. She has also said that his brother worked for Boeing in Renton. Hearsay for the first. More solid on the second... but neither necessarily equate to such knowledge. If he did do it, it sort of sucks that she got rid of almost all his belongings before a friend asked her if she ever thought he might be Cooper... If he didn't do it, then it doesn't make much difference I suppose.

ha ha ha... good one. I think, maybe he would have been. He was into ripping off "someone" but when it came to pay for his drinks, he did. He also offered cash to Tina. I just don't think he was THAT cheap, ha ha ha ha. 377, A guy quits his job telling his boss that his wife wants to move back south. Why would anyone suspect anything? More curious, why did he lie and make that move? From what skyjack posted, there was apparently no reason. No one will ever know for sure. Certainly not enough to make a conclusion one way or the other. But, certainly not inconsistent with his own confession that he later made in 1995 either.

Could be. Certainly looks consistent of the river. If someone said this was the sand bar, then I have no reason to question it. My question is where on the beach was it recovered? I'm going to put in a phone call to see if I can find out a little more info. I will say this, if your picture were actually the area where it was recovered, I'd have no problem concluding that the river is brought the money there. Right now, it's one of three possibilities... Excellent research Jim! Extremely helpful. Post anything else you can.

If the sign is actually from the area in question, then I'd say someone somewhere wrote an "e" instead of an "i". Ckret spelled it with an "e" and I've seen other Cooper enthusiasts spell it that way before he did. Someone must have written it down wrong. I will visit this area when I make it out there this summer. I will also try to get someone knowledgable on the phone this week and will ask copious questions. I've wondered why people purchase vacant land like that. The Fazio Bros owned a bunch of it in that area, none of it is useful for anything. There might a few structures there now, but nothing significant from what I can tell. Dropping some quarters into a box at least makes a little sense.

Jim, You're right on the money. No pun intended. It's actually called Tena's bar. I've never, ever heard that term outside Cooper discussion. I know the area, but *barely*. I've been through there once or twice. How I found it back at the beginning of the year was by looking at old property maps from the 70s. I found the parcels owned by the Fazio Bros and knew the money was recovered there. Your wiki map is centered pretty much in the exact location. It was somewhere on that beach. The last two photos appeared to be the same one, but if that's the place (and it does look like they're digging pretty deep) it is extremely helpful. I even had asked Ckret in a PM to find some photos of the find... we need as many of those type of pictures as we can get to really have an accurate understanding of what happpened and how the money got there. Thanks again! Excellent stuff!!!!!

I'm not here to write a book. If I were, I wouldn't write all that I know for free... All these people, Mayfield, Christiansen... they all want to write a book. But who in the world wants to buy a book? Very few. It's a losing proposition. I will send you a PM with more information about myself. Any opinions I express do not diminish anything from what I posted. Those conclusions can stand on their own.

Let me put your heart at ease my friend. Everything I've discussed on this board has, for the most part, been free of discussing why a particular person committed a crime. Sure, I made some summaries about Weber and Mayfield, but those were for the benefit of everyone else. If you look over pretty much the substance of what I've put down here, you'll see that it's independent of any particular person. Clark County can be looked at geographically to determine where streams and creeks flow. There are six major regions of clark county, each of which have a major waterway leading to the Columbia River. 4 of the regions force the water to adjoin the Columbia north of where the money was recovered in 1980. The other 2 regions have been major discussion points because they actually feed the Columbia in a way that actually could explain money washing up. The most likely of the two was LaCamas Lake. I can't rule it out entirely just yet, not until I get confirmation that the skimmers have been used for decades. Without the skimmers, one must still believe a bag of money was able to float from the north end into Round Lake and was never seen. This was discussed at length in some of my other posts. The other viable waterway is Washougal River. This was THE waterway that the FBI and countless others theorized about for decades. The problem is, it's region does not spread north enough or west enough to solve the mystery. Essentially, it can be ruled out entirely. The next set of parameters to look at is the 1974 layer in the sand. Anything above this layer was placed there afterwards. The money was found about 18 inches above the 1974 layer, and according to Ckret, experts concluded that the money had gotten there less than a year prior to being found. The next set of parameters to look at is the location of the plane at the time of the jump. It was east or northeast of LaCenter depending on the exact time you think the jump/oscillation occured. Along with that, the time of the jump is imperative. I will work on sealing this some in the next week. As it is now, we know the FBI was adamant about the landing area. There are reasons for this which would be nice for all of us to know. If you remove the timeline arbitarily and take the appropriate flight path, there are miles between the path itself and the outer boundry of the LaCamas Region. The calculated landing area is over 12 miles from where the money was found. I don't have to subscribe to any theory to derive these conclusions. Either someone found the money and planted it in 1979 (planted by physically dropping it or placing it or throwing it in the river), or Cooper himself did this. There's really no way around it. In addition, any theory that does not fit the parameters is literally, impossible. The only possible weaknesses in the conclusion are the float time of the money bag, the location of the plane, and timeline of the jump. Solve all three of those in a way that answers the 1974 layer in the sand, and you have a viable theory. Right now, to attack any of those would leave you on shaky ground. I plan on making some significant phone calls this week to shed some light on any remaining questions of the timeline, location, and the bag that was given to Cooper. If the bag given to Cooper was anything less than what was outlined by Guru, then there's going to be an issue with float time. If I can confirm the skimmers, there's going to be issues with LaCamas viability. If I can find out why the FBI was so convinced of the location of the plane and the timeline, then the entire debate will be frivolous. I do not care if Weber did it. I do not care if Christiansen did it. I do not care if Mayfield did it. I do not care if McCoy did it. I do not care if Cooper died. I do not care if Cooper lived. I do not care if the skydiving community is split 80/20 on the survivablity of the jump. I do not care if 174 pounds of force caused the bag to rip from Cooper's body. I care about staying true to the facts in the case. There's a complete delineation between fact and conjecture. The things I outlined above are fairly straightforward. They do not require conjecture. What requires conjecture is to argue with the facts. If anything, I've given you and everyone else a starting point for arguing. If you think the money was caught up in a tree for 7 years, that's great. You just have to place the bag in an appropriate place: timeline & location are the facts you need to dispute. If you think the money washed up naturally, you know where you have to argue. That's all. It doesn't take a conspiracy theory to draw the conclusions I've drawn. OTOH, to argue against them without any substance, sure sounds a lot of like a conspiracy theory. The sideburn question was just for fun Orange1. I only know about Weber because so much has been posted about him, including pictures up the ying yang. The other guys, I have very few photos of... sideburns will not solve the case. I was trying to make this debate a little more fun. Maybe that's not what's wanted here??? If I make a post as to why any particular person "may" have done it, it does not take away from the conclusions outlined above. Keep the debate on things that count. If you want to argue, let's argue facts. If you want to just shoot the breeze (like I was trying to do with the sideburns post and the if Cooper lived post) then let's do that. I don't care either way.

Here's a discussion I'd love for people to chime in on. If you can put your other hats on and venture down hypothetical lane, what type of behaviors and thoughts would you attribute to Cooper in the years following the crime? I'm curious about everyone's hypothesis, but for me, I'm mostly interested in what would have gone through Cooper's mind in the days, weeks, or months following Ingram's find. If Cooper lived, then he would have heard the news that some of the ransom would have been found. This case had not really made the news until that point. If Cooper lived, he would have paid close attention to the news reports regarding the recovered money. Most criminals keep up on what the media says about their crime. Some have been known to keep news clippings. Some have even interacted directly with the media as did some famed criminals around the time of the Cooper heist. My question surrounds this. If Cooper lived and he lived thousands of miles away from the NW, the Ingram find would have been the first media attention thrown at this case since 1971. This is significant because the AP reported as part of this story something that Cooper probably didn't know. He had been federally indicted to circumvent the statute of limitations. If Cooper lived, Ingram's find would have immediately informed him that he was forever on the hook for the Cooper crime, instead of the five years a person might normally think. What would go through Cooper's mind in the days, weeks, and months following Ingram's find? Suppose Cooper just found out that he'll never make it off of the wanted list for his 1971 extracurricular activities, do you think he'd just go about business as usual? Do you think he'd panic? Do you think he'd change his appearance? What do YOU think? Remember, it's hypothetical...