SafecrackingPLF

Very strong possibility there. Certainly I think $$ was a huge motivator. The $200,000 might be significant. You can add this to your profile, Cooper was not greedy and was not a mean person. "Ah! The audicity! How could you say something like that?" Well, the flight attendants described him as such, and Cooper actually reached into his ransom and handed Tina $2,000. Cooper said he had a grudge. Was it just repartee or was he being truthful? Could be either. If he had a grudge, the people most harmed by this crime: NW Airlines: the experience itself, negative publicity Insurer: $200,000 FBI: they never caught him (for this crime anyway) Cowlitz/Clark Sheriffs: spent a lot of time & resources Flight crew: time wasted, possible nightmares Airline Industry: Installing Cooper Vane, Security Measures General Public: Security at Airports The question to ask about this list is what would be intentional and what would be unintentional? What's collateral and what's purposeful? If it was a form of revenge, then you'd expect Cooper to feel wronged by the party he was attempting to hurt. If he wanted to "show" or even more, make a statement by his actions, then he might actually "say" something to someone or might leave a message behind for people to find later. Did he leave a message behind? I Don't know.

A dissenting opinion every now and then never hurt anyone. Besides, do you really think sangiro would go for it? I think we're okay. A few people ought to post less often (I being one of them), but other than that, the thread has new life... great to see all the regulars posting here again and some new DZers like BigSky.

Would John Collins checking into a hotel down the street from PDX the night of Nov 23, 1971 add more weight?

Thanks for asking. When I revisit the drift analysis, I will get a hold of Kallend... I've just been too lazy/busy to do it yet. At some point in the next 3-4 months, I'm going to actually put some cash in a bag and see how long it can float. While it's not exactly the same as a river or creek (turbulence), it will still give some idea about a money bag's ability to float. The turbulence of the Columbia is not that strong in the areas we're talking about, and at the very least, it will shed some light on the LaCamas route. So, both... I hope to figure out both. One I can do on my own, the other I need some help.

Thanks for the article, that was great! "We don't want it to be too funny," said Burroughs. "It's a serious issue." I've got to say, when I saw the picture of Git-R-Done, I was on the floor laughing for at least five minutes. If Cooper wasn't so famous already, we'd have to come up with some crafty name.... Ckret, one last confirmation on this... it was a briefcase. Is there any specific notes or description of this case? Also, Hancock interview? [edit] I saw that article was from 06 and it mentioned the bag lady. I remember one day going down Madison and the whole block was quarantined off because Bag Lady hit either the Key or US right there, cops everywhere with guns drawn... good to know we've got a bonafide criminal catcher at the helm. Maybe we'll make some headway in this Cooper case afterall.[/edit]

OT, but Jessica Fletcher used to crack me up how she'd get confessions by "recalling" a statement someone said... Now I know where my investigative hunger came from... too much TV. My joke was in reference to a Seattle area bank robber that made MSNBC news last week.

By the way Sluggo, that stuff about bank robbery, it's no rumor. A Ginzu might be able to cut through a tin can, but it sure can't cut through a Carr. You can quote me on that one.

I was more trying to make the point that if this thing is going to get solved then we need to look at the facts more. I concur. The problem as I've seen it is that the minute you can 100% rule something out, people will immediately question the 'facts'. It's much easier to just hold onto a theory that doesn't fit than it is to widdle down the possibilities and actually make forward progress. I guess that's just how it is. It's fine because it's a fun mystery and people should be able to come up with all sorts of conclusions. But if you actually want to resolve the mystery, then you have to start taking a hard line with things that have been established. That means not disputing AFB radar, careful analysis of ATC recordings performed by NWA & the FBI, and pilot testimony without just cause. Sluggo, I answered your question several posts ago. There's no way I was Cooper.

How did it get there? Can we rule out that it got there by natural causes? If so how can we do this? Good questions. It's been the subject of debate since November. The "how did it get there" is the bigger mystery. The "natural causes" (if the facts are correct) is pretty certain; the money had some help getting there. The question is, how much help? I will mention, there are several who disagree with that conclusion, including Ckret. The reason I hold to it so tight is because no one has shown me a legit reason to think he jumped after 8:13 pm (calculated 8:11), and no one has shown me a legit reason to think the plane was way off course (east or west). The big reason I want to analyze float time is because I would like to figure out "how much" help that money had. It may be impossible to figure it out conclusively, I don't know... but I do know it's impossible if no one ever tries to figure it out. The post you're looking for is here: Cooper Myths Debunked If you need more explanation, let me know.

I suppose you're right. I chose the pen name for a specific purpose. The purpose was for marketing. I'm not sure how a criminal would select an alias, except for ease of getting IDs and such. In this particular crime, there was no need for ID so the name could come from anywhere. Who knows how or why he selected that particular name. To say he used his uncle's first name and his brother's middle name might be correct, but the odds are unbelievably against it. Find a legit suspect who's uncle's name was Dan and his brother's middle name was Cooper and maybe there's a theory. Otherwise, I take it for what its worth, drivel.

I have an alias that I use (also known as a pen name) and the initials have nothing to do with my real name. The only safe assumption a person could make would be that he probably used an alias. If he did, he may have used it before or used other aliases before.

Cossey sounds about as enthusiastic as some of our DZ community members... According to the AP just minutes ago: Cossey has been through the drill before; this is the third time the FBI has asked him to examine parachutes to see whether they might have been Cooper's. One chute found long ago — he couldn't remember when — was just a "pilot chute," used to pull the main chute out of the pack. The other time, in 1988, it was a parachute found by a Columbia River diver seeking clues to Cooper's fate. "They keep bringing me garbage," Cossey said. "Every time they find squat, they bring it out and open their trunk and say, 'Is that it?' and I say, 'Nope, go away.' Then a few years later they come back." Cossey, though sounding cantakerous, appeared to relish the spotlight Tuesday. He answered his cell phone with "D.B. Cooper" and said he got a kick out of telling some reporters that the parachute was, in fact, the hijacker's. One reporter called him back angrily, saying he could be fired for writing a false story, but another said the newsroom enjoyed the April Fool's joke. "I'm getting mixed reviews," Cossey said. "But I'm having fun with it; what the heck." You have to admit it. Cossey is a riot.

the missing briefcase and what happened to that. Yes, I'd like to figure this out as well... but first, I'd like to confirm what it was he was carrying. I've heard "pocketbook" (Simmonds), I've heard leather carrying case, I've heard briefcase (from TV). There's a huge difference between these. I'd like to know color, how many handles, if it was hard or soft, the likely material, how it opened... Knowing this will help us figure out the liklihood that he ALSO strapped it to himself. I have a feeling those contents were important to him and he thought they could come in handy.

I don't think there would be much to be gained from digging in the sand. How could you differentiate between layers? Someone who knows what's going on would need to do that. I wouldn't even know where to begin... but I could ask a geologist about sand accumulation and such, just general knowlegde type things. I mean, 28 years of accumulation, dredging, etc... no way. I'd get lost and so would pretty much anyone unless they KNEW what they were doing and knew the layers they were going through. Albert: But it would do them no good to know when he jumped, if they didn’t know where the plane was at the time. I think this only shows the mind set of the pilots. There were those chase planes and the goal was to see him jump. If the plane alerts them as to his jump time, they can be on the look-out. That's my guess. Well, in the end, they did log the time. They then had to backtrack with radar to get the jump point. Rataczak clearly said that he "quickly" got on with ATC and told them he felt he had jumped. This is why timeline would be tough to crack.

Do you want me to call up a geologist and ask for more information? I've thought about all this stuff, but it always helps to have someone on the sidelines begging the question. Rates of accumulation change over time. 3 inches probably wouldn't be a constant... there would be more accumulation there than out in the woods though. But, one thing I can tell you is that geologically speaking, strata is happening at all times and everywhere. The dirt you walk on today is not the dirt you walked on decades ago.

One thing I know about you is that you call them how you see them. If you say you do not think there's anyway those bills went through a dredge, then I'll concur. There are other reasons to think it was dredged, the least of which being the sand strata.

I'm really at a loss as to why the bag needs to float. If it doesn't float, then it would have been found at the bottom of the river, not in the river bank. The float can also eliminate LaCamas Lake as viable (although it might be ruled out regardless).

I can't speak to the mechanics of the dredge. I only know they did a dredge in 74 and that the layer in the sand was found. In the photo you can see him with his finger where the layer is (and the layer is clearly visible). There's a good 18 inches of regular sand that had accumulated over 6 years on top of it. I would think if there had been other dredge operations, the FBI would have looked into it. That's my whole spiel regarding the dredge. Ckret has said the dredge would chop up the money, I don't know anything about that (outside my expertise). Even if you thought it was dredged, it picked up 3 stacks off the bottom (they're all together down there?) and then coughs them all up at the same point on land? Then, they're not stained from river silt. If you believe Ingram, then the rubber bands "crumbled" to the touch (not turn to dust). If you buy into my idea of the money decomposing before arriving on the beach, then what allows the rubber bands to stay intact for 7+ yrs while the bills themselves get moldy? There's some serious kick-ass posts on here today. Thank you all... will PM some of you later tonight.

I'm looking for something to stand out, but nothing does. It appears to be consistent with washing up or being placed. I was hoping to see something that would sway it one way or the other. We've debated this before, but not too much depth... the decomp of the bills. See attached from same Corbis site. Any ideas on the decomp? Moisture levels, containment/no containment? How much of this decomp do you think happened while on the beach? Personally, I think the brittleness would happen on the beach and maybe some decomp (while under sand), but that a bulk of this decomp happened elsewhere... but that's my opinion. Orange, my comments about Tosaw are in jest... he wouldn't ask about serial numbers if he was Tosaw, but if he is, he should come clean so we all know. That's all. I don't think he is, I just think it's funny.

Not all the bills were L, only most of them. There were some F (Atlanta) as well. The entire list is in your Tosaw's book. Pictures of the dig are absolutely significant. In all these pictures that people keep posting (where are they coming from??) they're digging not too far from the water's edge. Just looking at that photo you posted, I can easily see how money could get washed up several feet from the edge. First, the water height does flucuate. Second, barges go through that area en route to Portland via the Williamette. All it takes is for a big barge to come by to create a sizable wake. Less than a mile south of that point, I was camping once with my friend. A yacht came by and literally sunk my friend's boat! No kidding, the wake came over the sides of the boat and sunk it, we had to bail water. All it takes is for one of these events to happen with $$ near the water's edge... and then it's on the sand where wind can move it further or cover it with sand.

Thank you! Do you happen to have a digital scale that measures grams or ounces? Guessing no (not everyone has them)... still, you may help solve the debate. What we'd need to do is weigh a fixed volume of water and compare it to the same volume of tap water. Of course, you have to account for the container itself (which would be weighed before the test). My guess is, the two would be pretty much equal. Pool water actually has a higher TDS than tap water (thus the $$ would float better). Temperature can have an affect, but seriously, we're talking about a fairly narrow temp range that wouldn't really have an impact one way or the other. Temp affects the viscosity of the water which of course affects buoyancy... it also affects things like pH (on a very small scale mind you). I know this stuff from, like I said, spent my whole life around the water... even had CPO and AFO certs.

Salinity is the #1 determinant of buoyant properties of water. That's why there's such a difference between salt and fresh. Fresh has a lot of particles in the water, but they aren't TDS... it's the TDS that changes the actual physical properties of water. Suspended particles tend to weigh the same as the water... and I've never heard of suspended particles keeping a boat or anything else afloat.

Great post BigSky. You touched on a few of the reasons I just can't fathom a 100% natural transport. First, you have to get past the timeline. Then you have to get past the location. Then you actually have to think it's possible. Then no one can ever see it. Then you have the time that has elapsed... and it keeps going and going. When you really start adding it up, it just doesn't seem likely, and very few theories fit through all the hoops and make sense. I know of one theory so far that would make sense. Most others don't pass the smell test with me, but I'm still willing to investigate them (which is why I'm even considering testing the float time). Sluggo, Tell you what I'll do Sluggo... After I test the float time of money, I will weigh water from the test tank (pool, or whatever water it happens to be) against water from the Columbia. It's still months and months away, and I need to know more about the bag before I do it. Sluggo, I like how you keep me honest. Keep it up buddy.

I think you're assigning way too much impact on the TDS of water. (total dissolved solids). Yes, it would be higher and yes it would affect buoyancy. The TDS of the water would be almost neglible though. The only significant differences in properties are from fresh to salt water (where TDS is enormously high). I can tell you that once the air in a stack of money is gone, cash sinks like a ROCK. It doesn't dangle, doesn't sort of float beneath the surface, it SINKS. Would additional TDS really rescue it that much? Undissolved solids (dirt, debris) wouldn't affect the water properties at all. I guess you can speculate if you want to. If you want me to conduct said test in the Columbia river, maybe I will, but I don't live down the street from it anymore. As to why it's so important? Well, water transport would essentially require the money to be at the surface. It would also require being at the surface in a way that allows three stacks to be found all together. I only know the money has to be at the surface to enjoy a surface deposit. The other factor is float time in the lake (if it went that way). My personal opinion is that the money could not float for enough time to support either lake or washougal routes, but I'd still like to find out. Float time may be able to help us figure out if the money was in its original bag or a different container if it washed up. I just can't believe three seperate packs got there all individually. Aside from the less than 11 minute float time, you also have unbelievable odds of three stacks there, with no other stacks found scattered about. How they were found would seem to suggest either placement or containment. I just don't see how a float test would be frivolous and I don't see how the water properties would change enough to significantly impact the buoyancy of money. Like skydivers are to air, safecrack is to water. I spent my entire life in the stuff... I understand what you're saying, I just don't see it as significant enough to really change things that much (maybe a few seconds at the very most). In the end, the more we know, the better our guesses will be.

Good question... I've been waiting to hear from your expert (or at least some info). snowmman, The only thing we can safely say about the configuration is that it appears to be in the same order. There's no way to verify that. Really, the only absolute conclusion you can reach is that those bills were not spent, and no non-Cooper bills were found among them. I guess it goes without saying, it's a safe assumption the bills were in the same order, it's just not proven. Proximity of the bills... you can see from Brian's statement for yourself close enough together that an 8 year old boy could smooth out the sand with his arm and find all three stacks.