SafecrackingPLF

For what it's worth, I agree with you... but I don't just rule stuff out because I don't agree with it. I can only rule stuff out when there's cause to. Everything I've done on here has been process of elimination. That doesn't get me to "one" answer, it just eliminates almost all of them. Okay, add two more: no suspension line found at site, none reported no money bag found at site, not reported

Thanks... I saw that last night. He put one on eBay and didn't get a high enough price (3 or 4k)... the minute the parachute makes big news and plasters the case everywhere, the iron is hot... time to strike it rich from Cooper... again (he already got a bike when he was a kid). I think his ex-wife might have some bills too (settlement).

Thanks Ryoder! Got to make sure I phrase things correctly. Yes, extremely low probability of finding a bill (even if all were put into circulation). The odds are pushing 1 in a million... not likely. Money not found in circulation means almost nothing. snowmman... I've been told the packs were in random sizes. However, I can't picture that. They took 200k from a stack of 500k... random bundles wouldn't make that an easy task. (they didn't have digital scales to weigh money back then) did they have their triple beam scale out to divide the money? As it was, three bundles, 288 bills. Were 12 of them missing, or was that the entire amount? No one knows. We can safely assume that it's reasonable to say some bills may have decomposed totally... so even if there were 12 missing bills, it wouldn't mean much.

Why would I need to quantify no body being found? I simply stated, no body was reported... ever. If you want to qualify it, go ahead. Regarding rot time of a money bag... that's not really something I'm dealing with right now. If you want to add it, go ahead. rot time of canvas bag is unknown I'm more interested in the float time of the bag because it will be quicker to determine and will provide immediate parameters. For example, if the float time is 2 hours, then you know the bag (if it made its way to the final location) was less than 2 hours of creek/stream/river time away. Trust me, there's an extremely valid reason I'm after that float time... and it's a lot more than just LaCamas lake. You could also look at decomp and begin to ask if the money bag idea supports the decomp. Maybe... I don't know. My parrot started saying a new word today. "Tosaw! Tosaw!" Then I realized it was reading over my shoulder.

I don't live there now, but I have lived there before. I've put some thought into what you've said, because I've thought about it myself. If I understand the strata, there's 3 inches of deposit per year (average from 74-80). Yeah, that's a lot. But, it's also a major river. You will find river rock near high velocity portions of a river and you will find finer sand near lower velocity portions of a river. That's just how it gets sorted naturally, because the moment the energy disspates, the river deposits the heavier items first. The sand comes from alluvium. 75% of alluvium winds up on the river path. If you think about how much alluvium (particled rock) the Columbia would be producing, it's quite a bit. These pieces of sand start off in the mountains and work their way to creeks, streams, and rivers. The Columbia is carrying sediment from all over the NW. I'm not sure how the dam mechanisms would work to thwart alluvium. At the very least, dam operators would have to make sure their dam is clear of build up (or else the dam would stop working). The "high and dry" aspect of where the money was found, I cannot comment on. There have been people who have claimed a lot of things... but someone would really need pictures to make a definite conclusion. The water levels flucuate a lot. I've seen that river go up or down as much as ten feet in height. Sluggo found a website that had historical data on river flow, but I couldn't figure out how to find river levels for the Columbia in the 70s.

As most can tell, I see things in a very mathematical way. It's not because I like it, but because I find it most useful for me. Everyone has their style, and all the styles have merit and are helpful. While people argue back and forth about Cooper's skydiving experience, for example, I try to work on solving the equation. When there's resolution in the arguments (his experience) we can add it into the equation... but some stuff like that is just too difficult to come to a reliable conclusion. And I think that's what you were trying to say... deductions do not equate to facts. I would remind you, it works both ways... conjecture does not trump facts when working probabilities. It's all good Orange. There's no reason to continue debating with me on meaningless stuff that will have no affect on obtaining a solution. The way I see it, the equation goes something like this: money found 2-10-1980 = Variables: Deposited within one year of being found. Factors include strata in the sand rubber bands survived the journey (7+ yrs) Money was not stained. Money was decomposed. Decomposition occurs only under certain environments. (air + moisture, but not too much air or it counters the moisture and not too much moisture that it counters the air) Staining occurs with prolonged submersion in dirty water. Rubber bands suggest "protection" from UV. Location of the money would favor transport from the River, but would not preclude a purposeful drop. Timeline of the jump was 8:11 Flight path was V-23 Water transport is limited to 2 regions: LaCamas & Washougal LaCamas has possible viability issues (dam, skimmers, it's a big lake) that have not been determined yet. Additional region would be entire Columbia River South & East of where money was found. Other water regions require relocation No body ever reported No other money ever reported No bills in circulation ever matched to 34 page S/N list Crime occured Nov 24, 1971 Cash becomes brittle with constant wet/dry and hot/cold cycles. Cash becomes "stiff" after even one wet/dry cycle (I know this from drying off my sunken cash) Found money had crumbles where it lay. 3 stacks of cash found in proximity to each other. 1 stack of dry bills w/ rubberbands (100 bills) floats in undisturbed fresh water for approximately 10 minutes 25 seconds. Float time of money bag currently unknown. The college I went to hired tutors to make sure I achieved grades. They gave me a guy getting his phd in mathematics. This guy helped me 4.0 several classes. He once told me something I'll always remember... I could give him 20 points (on a graph) and he could develop an equation that would fit all 20. He told me it wouldn't mean the equation would be the "solution", only that it could be done. If one or more of the "variables" are wrong, that's okay, let's figure it out and make some forward progress.

Ckret, I was going to speak to Himmelsbach about this, perhaps I will later on this week... there's one more piece of the puzzle I need to figure out. Suppose the money does wash up (as opposed to being placed there), we need to know how long the money bag can float. We cannot figure that out without a very strong understanding of the bag itself. I've heard that it was canvas, no top, two handles. I have such a bag, but the dimensions are exact which would mean the cash would be brimming. It's also a thick guage... if possible, is there a way to get a better description besides "handles, no zipper?" I probably won't be able to do a float test until I have access to a swimming pool (memorial day, maybe just prior if I get permission). I know we assume it can float for a really long time, but it would be nice to know exactly so that we get some parameters. Orange.. I don't get mad when people don't accept my reasoning, I get frustrated when people throw facts to the wind for lofty theories. 377 & Ckret, for example, agree with my reasoning and therefore believe the plane was in a different location. That's legit thinking.

Thanks Ckret. Funny story... we had a career day when I was at UW. It was for the athletic dept. We got to pick out which person we'd eat dinner with. Of course, I pick out the FBI agent. When it came time for each person to introduce themself to the room, (for the life of me, I can't remember who it was) says his name, followed by FBI. Well, then the geologist I mentioned earlier goes next and he says "Stan, CIA". The whole room busts up laughing. Regarding the parachute. I said it before and I'll say it again... would not rule it out completely without the harness. If you need help, I now have two family members out there that are turning into Cooper fantantics. They aren't at the "freak" level like me, but they'd probably help. Short of it is, get the harness!

“When the guy left on Friday, he said, ‘Don’t say anything for a couple of days,’” Cossey said. “I said, ‘That’s ridiculous. It’s not the right parachute. It’s not even close.’” Well Ckret, I can't really blame you. It did create quite the media sensation. I can tell you just from my own family, the mystery has been given a new birth. I'd still get the harness, just to bring some closure to this "mystery". The kids could have pointed the way. I'll say this much, when given an real location in the search zone, the reporters actually took the time to look and see if the streams and creeks explained the money & they do not. I feel somewhat vindicated. Now just to move the plane 12 miles, the timeline 5 minutes, and get the bag to float long enough to travel 20+ miles and we'll be home. Cossey Says No Way

I think that was the point 377, Albert18, and myself made... there were chase jets running clover patterns. I chalk it up to either chase fighters or reverb. I believe they heard something, but I don't think it trumps AFB radar.

Have you finished reading the old thread yet? If you hadn't asked some questions that he'd know, I'd suspect you were Richard Tosaw. Your First post, Am I Dead or Alive... Tosaw's book "Dead or Alive?" Your insistence on river dredging. Tosaw's insistence on river dredging that he hires divers to find more of the loot. Posts that come off really strong. Tosaw's reputation of being hard nosed and arrogant. Like I said, you seem very well read. Much further than a typical first time visitor here... but if I didn't see you ask questions that Tosaw would have known, I'd guess you were him.

I don't care about the layer analysis. Well, I guess that conversation is over. I take it for granted sometimes that people understand earth science. I can look at that picture and identify the strata in the sand immediately. I wasn't born that way, I learned from the guy who wrote the book, literally. He was a friend and a mentor to me in my college days. I can post a picture and refer to the findings, but if people want to overrule science with indisputable conjecture, then I guess I'm just left dumbfounded.

Sluggo... walkie talkie man fits the sketch! I just ran a facial comparison and he beat everyone... Okay, just kidding. But curious what radio station he was listening to.

Let me get this straight. Your theory is that the money landed at/near where the parachute was found, it then gradually made its way down Cedar Creek into the Lewis River and then made its way to the Columbia River at which point it had sunk. It would have sunk before this, but I'll let that go. Next, you think "the dredging operation" began north and made its way UPSTREAM as it went. You then think the cash got stuck in the machine for 10 miles. Meanwhile, the machine continues to spit river sludge the whole time until finally at mile 10, it yaks up the money. The money would have been "in" the 1974 layer, not above it. As it was, the money was found about 18 inches above the 1974 layer. The money was not muddy or browned from hanging out on the river bottom. The money was, however, moldy and decomposed. The rubber bands survived the travel but then quickly became brittle once the cash was on the sand. Individual stacks of cash can only float for about 10 minutes and 30 seconds. Sunken cash at the bottom of the river will not float its way miraculously to the top for a sand bar deposit. You took care of that one. The rest of it does not fit. See attached photo, you will see the "layer" in the sand about 18 inches down. There's a distinct difference between river silt and normal sand. Great try grasshopper. Sluggo, That picture ran in the Reno (gazette?) I believe, and it was taken in Reno if I'm not mistaken. It would appear it was taken after the stairs were repaired. I've had that picture in my files for months... thank you for posting.

A lot of your questions would be answered if you were to read the posts. I just posted a statement from Rataczak (the only living pilot). He explicitly stated that the demand for 15 degree flaps came later. He also said Cooper requested two front, two back. Himmelsbach has also stated this. Rataczak pretty much paraphrased the original note given to Schaffner. A line going from Heisson to the recovered money? Like I said, Heisson is 7 miles east of where the radar put the plane, and the route you specify would be fairly "wild"... not to mention, the notion that the money simply flew out the back of the plane and landed in the sand does not explain the recovered money... there's much, much more to it than that (such as condition and timeline of deposit). You seem to be well-read, but you'd be better served pouring over the old thread and then this one before posting loads of questions (that have already been answered).

ha ha ha... yep, got to get to work! I will be back online later. Am eagerly awaiting some new discoveries... It's either: eye witness testimony placing the plane east forensic analysis on the money showing it had to come from Washougal absolute verification that the timeline was off Something along those lines. Any one of them would be fairly significant... well, the eyewitness stuff has been known for decades and I take it for what it's worth.

Didn't the chopper come in later? (further south) And then it was a lose-lose... the fighters were too fast and the chopper was too slow. Thank you for the opinion. One other factor would be that the McChord radar would have had to been way off as well.

I have added a pic that shows where the money was discovered. You will see it marked with an "X". There are no "drift lines" on the map, only drew a proposed flight path next to the "known" path. The "WR___" numbers are actual boundary points to the Washougal watershed. Anything within those points feeds the Washougal River. The points extend further south, I only used the north western most points in that particular map. Point "H" refers to the 1972 landing zone map. Just updated that post again, and added the approximate canopy location. It's labled as "Carr points to here"

Oh trust me, I remember the chase planes. I've wondered what these eye witnesses heard. They all describe a large/slow jet. I can tell the difference between a commercial jet and a fighter just by the sound, and I'm not an aviation guy. Therefore, I'd expect the witnesses to be able to distinguish the difference as well. Not that I don't think it could have been a chase plane, but perhaps reverberation throughout the mountains. Simply put, I just don't know. I believe the witnesses (they have no reason to lie), I just don't know what to make of them.

Ckret requested that I calculate a new line AB based on the Washougal watershed. The original line AB was derived by taking the known coordinates of the plane and backing into a probable jump location. This first part would be required to calculate a drift line. If all we're looking for is a drift line that's within the Washougal region, we could do it. In my "myths debunked" post on the old thread, I stated that the drift vector would be between 225 and 235 degrees. The people who put together that 1972 landing zone map calculated a resultant vector of 233.54 deg. Points A & B are roughly 3.78 miles apart. I could therefore use their work to draw some lines near the Washougal watershed. The lines would be at 233.54 degrees. The length of the line would be dependent upon the elevation. The elevation in that area is much greater than the original landing area. Further, the flight path would need to be adjusted. Attached you will see a proposed flight path if I drew a straight line from the eye witness who said the plane flew over her house to the Washougal boundary and then over to RAWER. At its widest point, the plane would be over 13 miles off course. Sluggo the pilot could give us an idea of how likely this proposed flight path would be in terms of route, off course, radar mislocation, etc. Keep in mind, this proposed route flies east of PDX and not west of PDX like V-23 would dictate. It goes without saying, but the timeline would absolutely have to be after 8:11.

Sounds like a fertile imagination to me. It's still right on line AB (barely north), so it's not as though the location would be without merit. It also looks a lot like the clear cut area depicted in the KOIN news piece from last week. I think the anonymous person was just using conjecture based on "likely" tractor work in the area. But, we shall know soon enough whenever Ckret gets the okay to share the location.

Speedy, Interesting thought. I will be interested to read the Hancock statement to see if Cooper was harnessing up BEFORE speaking to Rataczak... that would play directly into that idea. Well, I was going to post on this anyway, but someone new already touched on it. There are witnesses who swear the plane was on a different flight path that night. Witnesses meaning people who either heard or saw the plane in a totally different location. I know of one witness, someone I've spoken to personally, who was reading a book that night between 8-8:30 and heard an enormous roar from a slow moving jet go over her house. What made it so odd was that this person lived in Cougar at the time and it's extremely quiet out there. Cougar meaning west side of Yale Lake! If I go off of her testimony, it would mean the plane was 13.5 miles off course to the East. Apparently this witness knows of another family that lived close by who corroborated hearing the same thing. Incidentally, some Portland FBI agents interviewed this woman and her husband a few days later because the husband witnessed a man dressed in a business suit heading west on Lewis River Road, but the location of the spotting was literally on the north side of Yale Lake... implying that he was coming from the east! This husband claimed to think it was odd clothing for the location (this is way up in the mountains) and was expecting to see a broken down car, which he never saw. The husband was working construction on the east side of Swift Resevoir. As posted already, in Friday's Columbian, Dennis Levanen was quoted as saying the plane was in the wrong location as well. He places the plane in Heisson, 7 miles east of point F on the Jan 72 landing zone map. If you actually thought the parachute was found in Amboy, then you could trace a line between Cougar, Amboy and Heisson and have them all line up. The problem is, this jet would be coming from Mt. St. Helens, not MALAY. Further, it should be noted, there were several witnesses in Ariel who vividly remember the roar of the jet flying over their town Thanksgiving Eve. Therefore, we have witnesses who swear the jet was East and witnesses who swear the jet was right where McChord AFB said it was.

Just finished watching the show... yep, no mention of our good ole friend Dan Cooper. However, the rumors have been circulating that Mark Fuhrman is taking an interest in this case. I had heard that well before Ckret posted. Ckret might have some first hand knowledge as to the depth of the rumor. Judging from Furhman's appearance tonight, he seems to be more of an opinion type of guy with maybe a cursory understanding of cases. However, he usually calls them as he sees them and does tend to come up with reasonable conclusions. It would be interesting to see what he comes up with since the details of this case are so involved. Look at how much time we spend mulling over every little detail just to uncover a clue that could lead to a breakthrough... Fuhrman simply hasn't had that much time (unless he's on this board reading everything). But that's just my two cents. I feel like it's Christmas Eve Ckret.... can't wait to open a new present. Just promise you'll fill us in on any breaking news (yea or nea) when you have a chance.

Mark Fuhrman will steal your thunder Ckret. He has a knack for taking a cold case and analyzing it to death. He will look at exonnerated suspects to verify that there's really adequate information to exonnerate them. When I thought about likely authors for the Cooper case, I obviously thought Mark Fuhrman would be one of the better authors. However, I never actually thought he'd take an interest... I'm left to ponder if the events of this past week had anything to do with him emerging on the Cooper scene. If so, I cannot fathom him being much further than any of us regarding the case (unless he's privy to information the rest of us are not). Knowing Mark Fuhrman's style, he will find the needle in the haystack and will give the logical conclusion. If he studied the facts (without being predisposed to a particular theory) then he'll conclude that either: 1. Someone moved the money, or 2. The "facts" are unreliable I don't see how he'd come up with #2 without really pouring over your file... so I'm thinking #1. You did mention there was some breakthroughs in the case and that any suspect who was alive after 11-24-71 could be counted out... so I'm expecting a bombshell... "bones & harness recovered at the site prove Cooper died"... which again, would lead us to #1. Thanks for the heads up, I will program my DVR!

Great story. I'm eager to read the details, thank you for posting. It pretty much confirms what I already (was fairly)confident about; that Cooper was putting on the harness while the plane was still grounded and that he tied the money to himself afterwards. ltdiver, Nice thinking. I personally don't believe it happened that way because why wait to put on the Long Johns?? Would he really be that hot sitting there with them on? I'd say if he had special undergarments on, then he had them on when he boarded. But, pure conjecture of course. The contents of the little paper sack... oh how it has baffled the best of us. I wonder if he would have left us a clue as to its contents?