SafecrackingPLF

You made me laugh Ckret. I never knew you had such a strong sense of humor... I should have known before now, but maybe I'm a little "slow". Actually though, what's preventing the treasury from allowing the FBI to use old about-to-be-destroyed bills for testing decay in various conditions? Maybe they could stamp each bill with ink that says "void" on it... they must destroy hundreds of thousands of bills a day (or at least an awful lot). If worn bills wouldn't yield an accurate result, they could supply just the materials without the anti-counterfeit strips in them (thus they could never be used to successfully counterfeit bills)... they could print VOID on those too. I realize it's asking a lot... but on principle, it would seem like someone somewhere could make it happen. Well, there goes the "he had a car waiting for him at the landing area" theory. Can you imagine if they had gone out to sea? This would be a totally different case (and I don't think he'd have a snowball's chance at surviving in the middle of the Pacific)

With all due respect, we can only move the jump point so much. If the pressure bump was recorded prior to 2015, then a jump point of 2018 doesn't fit. Also, we went out on a limb with the 2015... the oscillation was recorded at 2012 and there's a high probability the two occured simultaneously. If we can get around the timeline and put the jump up to 2019, then we can get the money on/adjacent to the Columbia... so in that regard, you're correct. The jump point to get him right on the Columbia would actually be in Oregon due to the 225/235 winds, not that far into Oregon, but at least right on top of it (if he splattered)...

JohnRich, Thank you. That's very helpful. If the speed slows, it certainly makes it more possible for the bag to land intact if it hits solid ground (my comment about it ripping open assumed a ground landing since there aren't many trees in the area in question). If it did come off Cooper at exit, there might be cords flapping in the wind (knot around his waist came undone) which would increase the drag as well. The weight of the money was probably between 21 and 22 pounds depending on the weight of the canvas bag. I think it was packed fairly tight... I know it's not a bowling ball, but I figured it would drop about as fast as a human with their limbs outstretched... So if we slow it down two things happen: bag has more chance to stay intact on ground impact, and it has more time in the air... but since you're suggesting its wind resistence is high, that would mean it's forward throw would slow significantly, probably close to a dead stop by the time it hits the ground... it has to travel 2 miles forward and get pushed 1 mile east while in the air

I'm going to answer my own post a little... pieces of the money found on site, the money was breaking apart. The rubber bands crumbled to the touch. Therefore, the money was not crumbling nor were the rubber bands crumbling BEFORE arriving on the beach. The money was in the same order it was in when they handed it to Cooper, it's not like he restacked these... they were the original bundles. 7 years... no crumbling within 1 year, crumbling My question is, what causes stuff to get brittle so fast? We discussed ozone, but perhaps constant water/drying + warm/cold flucuations? I'm asking because the answer might provide a clue as to the prior 7 years.

The way I see it then, a better way to articulate the statement is that no bank teller ever matched a 20 with the list the FBI had handed out. It's likely a safe assumption that many people looked at first, but not too likely that a nationwide hunt for a matching serial number ever took place. Geographic location would also dictate the level of effort by bank tellers... while I'm sure if someone walked in with 200k in 20s, someone would look into it, if someone came in every other day with 5 notes to deposit and they live in Texas or something, maybe those tellers never check. If so, what from preventing him from setting up multiple bank accounts at different banks? I still don't think that's what happened, but it could have, and that's the important thing. In other words, the fact that no one ever matched a 20 they had in their hands with one on the list doesn't really prove that some bills did not make it into circulation. If today's average life span on those is 2 years, then certainly within 5 years, many of the bills that had entered circulation would have been destroyed... and by that time, perhaps the case wasn't really on people's mind? I agree with you 100%. I will start a summary of what we know so far, if I miss anything or get anything wrong, please post... other insights obviously welcome. 1. If Cooper spent ransom money, we know he at the very least did not spend all of it. 2. The jump occured 8:11-8:15pm Wednesday Nov 24, 1971, the money was found Sunday 2-10-1980. This span is 8 years, 2 months, and 18 days, or exactly 3,000 days excluding Sunday the 10th. 3. "Those in the know" said at the time that the money was there less than a year. Our range is therefore 2-10-79 to 2-10-80. 4. It's guaranteed the money arrived on the beach well after 1974 due to strata in the sand. 5. The rubber bands were still on the straps of cash, but they crumbled to the touch. 6. We've all seen pictures, the money was really weathered, a lot of it was brittle and the FBI actually went back to the location and found pieces of the money. Those pieces broke off while the money sat in the sand, not before. 7. According to the news reports, Harold Ingram was preparing a fire when little Brian ran up and said "wait a minute daddy"... he raked the sand and there was the money, three bundles. 8. Approximately 290 bills were recovered. 9. The FBI sealed off the area for days to comb the beach, but they never found more than the small pieces that had crumbled off the 3 stacks. 10. The bills appeared to be in the same order as when they gave them to Cooper but they could not verify this. 11. Most of the weathering was around the edges of the stacks, the bills on the inside were in the best condition. The edges of the bills were worn all the way around. 12. Because of the relatively good condition of the money considering 8 years in the elements and the less than a year timeline of it sitting on the beach, it's conceivable the money had some level of protection for up to 7 years. A picture of the money, along with several of the broken pieces that were recovered are pictured. Thanks to Ckret for providing the picture (which is available to the public).

Excellent points about the loot. Here's what we know: Cooper, assuming what I've shown here holds true to scrutiny, did not spend all of the money. Maybe he never spent any, maybe he spent some, but obviously a portion of that money went down the Columbia. Why? When? How? Those are questions we can work through over time. As for the serial numbers... if it were me, I know what I'd do... I'd go someplace where it's common for people to carry a lot of cash. Since I'm a Vegas guy, I'd go there... I'd buy a few black chips at a time, wander around, maybe play some $5 hands, then call it good and cash out and get untraceable bills. They didn't have video survelience back then, they only had cat walks and mirrors. Second, we assume that all banks across America had the capability to scan every bill that they came into contact with, and then take it one step further and run a search of that number against any known "ransom" serial numbers listed, Cooper ransom or any other ransom that had been tracked. I don't know the answer if this was possible or not. Third, tendered cash goes soft fairly shortly. 20s would fit this. 100s not so much, those tend to get stuck in bank vaults even today when a c note isn't that big of a deal. But the treasury routinely has to destroy currency when it reaches the end of its useful life. That time frame is usually within 5-7 years (now I could be off a bit here, I'm just going off of feel of what I know... I spent time on wheresgeorge.com). Most of the Cooper bills were 69 issue if I recall correctly. Would the treasury track these bills as they're destroyed? If so, would they flag bills that match ransoms? I'm sure they looked for counterfeit bills... what else, if anything, did they track in the 70s? If you combine the idea that Cooper could not have spent all of the money (how much or how little remains to be seen), with the idea that there are countless bills in circulation, and a time factor, geographic factor, and perhaps a limit of technology in the 70s, is it possible for money to be spent without it ever being flagged? I don't know. Further, if it is possible, how much could reasonably be spent before you start saying "surely by now they would have found at least one of these things!" I don't know that either. Total number of bills in the ransom: 10,000. Total number of bills in circulation in the 70s? I do not know. But there's a good start to figuring out probabilities.

Skyjack71, Yes, you're describing the Red Lion at the Quay. It's still there and it's still a premium hotel. Their Sunday brunch costs $20 a pop, but the view from the restaurant is terrific. Commercial area could be anywhere. Ckret, Not that I'm trying to ressurect the theory, but the only way this happened, using the information we have now, is that he'd have to travel and then die. Another option would be like what Sluggo_Monster suggested, that maybe someone actually found him, but then never reported it. Both ideas could have happened, though it's not that likely. First, if Cooper could hike up into the woods that feed Washougal, why go there? Why stop? That's a very long way to go no matter where we calculate the landing zone. If he can make it that far, then he can certainly make it the whole way. As for someone finding the body but not reporting it (or at least finding the money and not reporting it), it's pretty much the same argument you could make had one of the bills ever shown up in circulation (we would know someone spent the money, but couldn't be 100% Cooper spent it). If you want to revisit the flight path, then we might open some possibilities, but my gut says he's still landing on the west side to the "tributary zone" that feeds LaCamas lake, but that's more than we're able to logically say at this point in time, so maybe it's worth a shot? Sluggo_Monster, Perhaps I should have used the word "speed" instead of "rate". From what I've been told, the plane traveled between 170 to 180 kts. Without knowing for how long or where these velocities are maintained, we could never really "pinpoint" a jump location using calculations. We could use the radar to do that though. As for the search being "way" north, based on what we know right now (and maybe it can change with additional information) my guess is that the original timeline was closer to what happened. My guess is that the oscillation reported at 2012 occured simultaneously as the pressure bump, but maybe there's something in the files that would indicate this.

It's actually a screw up in how google earth displays it. The points are actually correct, it's just when it's zoomed out, they look mislabeled... I didn't know how to change this. Thanks, let me know if you see anything else... I know I did catch a slight difference in points I used in the target zone, but this was pointed out in the post.

I think that's a good idea, ask someone who would know more... if the NB6 was a emergency pilot rig, then I'm sure it could withstand an aweful lot. However, this sort of misses the point... The hypothetical situations that I'm posting aren't really to say "what" happened, but rather to explore the possibilty of these theories holding out. To do this, I try to take the most conservative approach I can... I do this because I'm not an expert. My personal opinion isn't that Cooper pulled his chute immediately... I really don't think that's what happened at all. My guess is, he took some serious time to stabalize, but he'd still have significant time to pull the cord. Once he's falling for 15 to 20 seconds, he's going as fast as he will vertically and his horizontal speed has likely diminished, if he pulls his cord between seconds 20 and 30, he's still okay, and aside from the nerves, there's probably not too much difference in pulling his chute at TV 30 seconds into the fall than there is pulling it at 10 seconds in. But for purposes of exploration, I used 10k to give him the most amount of drifting possible, which would then give us the most flexibilty and the highest probabilty of him landing near a tributary. Obviously if it would have shown him overshooting the target, that only proves it's possible; he just has to pull the cord a little later. Along this entire flight path, there's really no high elevations. I think the highest is around 1500 feet and that was Bald Mtn up near the Lewis River/Merwin Dam (and then of course those monsters up in Cowlitz). The two things I think will happen on this thread in the next few days are: there will be some discussion about the flight path. I think the other thing will be discussion about the timeline... and then maybe some corrections of some of the things I assumed. Maybe it will be enough to force us back to the drawing board, or maybe not... we'll see.

Yes, 90m/s. This is why I also ran the calculation at 50m/s. If you still think this is too high, then we can revisit this. But, if Kallend can give us some insight as to horizontal rate decay, that would be helpful too... I lack the skill to compute an accurate drift distance. I will say, even if I'm off and the 3.5 miles is closer to truth, it will still have to veer east, and we'd need to examine this as well. I can't pinpoint the exact "time"... it was a hypothetical example taken from the exact point where the plane is closest to the tributary zone. I do think what I posted deserves a further look from people who would know how to accurately calculate this. This would especially be true regarding falling money/falling Cooper. It's certainly the closest margin of all the theories. I think you're likely correct, I just have no way of calculating this, I don't know the coeffecient of friction, etc... but if what you're saying is correct, it will become even less likely to land in the tributary zone if the forward throw decreases rapidly. How fast do baseballs lose their speed? A baseball only travels 100 mph, now double that, I'd guess within a few seconds that bag of money has decelerated substantially... we need it to travel at least 2 miles but also get pushed by the wind to the east.

Good question... I don't know. I've seen Ckret reference MSL, but for calculations I still used a total fall of 10,000 feet... I figured I would cover the bases that way, but since I mentioned the elevation of WR 10 (a washougal tributary perimeter point I used), then I'm obviously assuming MSL to a large extent. I think it's time to look into this Don Broyles... or people who's names sound similar to Doyle Brunson, LOL. (sorry, it's the name that stands out to me when I saw the name)

Did Cooper land near a Washougal tributary? Did Cooper lose the money upon exit? Did Cooper die without pulling the ripcord? Did Cooper lose the money upon landing? These are the primary questions this post is about to answer. It's a continuation from posts that have been made in the last two weeks beginning on thread page 43 & 44. For those of you who are just now catching up, a quick refresher: It was determined that the original estimated landing zone for the notorios DB Cooper could not have feasibly explained money that was discovered along the Columbia river on 2-10-1980. The reason is because all of the streams in this vicinity eventually adjoin the Columbia several miles to the north, downstream from the found money. Further, it was determined to be impossible for Cooper to have landed near a suitable tributary if he jumped prior to 8:12 pm. This post examines these same questions by looking at Cooper's jump if it occured at or before 8:15pm. The Assumptions: Flight 305 traveled from point "F" on the FBI's landing zone map, to BTG-VOR, a navigation transponder that signifies a turning point on Victor 23. It then proceeded to the RAWER intersection. Using a +/- half mile buffer (I really only used the eastern half mile buffer), I was able to draw in an approximate route. The known winds have been adjusted upward. Ckret posted various wind velocities ranging from 23-29 mph upon descent, and winds of 17 mph at the surface. Cooper jumped using a NB-6. It was documented that Cooper had a 28' canopy, but the NB-6 typically is packed with a 26' conical. Nevertheless, the descent rate assumed is 1,000 feet per minute. Using this rate, if Cooper pulled his chute exactly at 10,000 feet & using the known winds at various altitudes, Cooper could have traveled 4.4 miles if he landed at 0 elevation, and 4.1 miles if he landed at an elevation of 1,000 feet. These numbers were derived by assuming no horizontal speed when the chute was deployed. In actuality, Cooper's horizontal speed would have reduced this distance simply because of the trajectory in question. First, did Cooper land near a Washougal tributary? To answer this, I outlined the perimeter of all Clark County Washougal tributaries. I came up with 16 points that I used. Instead of posting all of these, I will summarize instead. The two closest points from the flight path to the Washougal River perimeter were examined. Wind direction was not accounted for because the distances and elevation in question are deemed impossible. The closest possible point from the flight path to the Washougal River is 11.24 miles. In addition, Cooper would have to jump at approximately 8:17-8:18 and travel in a perfect easterly direction. Taking a straight line from the flight path to WR 10, Cooper would have to travel 12.27 miles in an easterly manner. In addition, WR 10 has an elevation of 1528 feet. If this was Cooper's landing point, he would have to travel over 12 miles in less than 8.5 minutes. This translates to 86.6 mph. Needless to say, if Cooper could have actually achieved this feat, then his death upon impact would be fairly explanatory. Please see WR Distance small for a graphical image of these points. Conclusion: If Cooper landed near a Washougal Tributary, then he certainly died. His lateral speed would be enough to kill him upon impact. However, even when disregarding wind direction, Cooper would need sustained winds of nearly 90 mph to land remotely close to a Washougal tributary. Therefore, the conclusion is a definite no. Did Cooper lose the money upon exit? To answer this, I looked at the flight path and compared it to the known tributaries. We can rule out the Columbia river as the sole travel mechanism simply because flight 305 crossed the Columbia far after the pressure bump was recorded. The third factor to consider is how far the money can travel during its fall. To calcuate a true answer, you would need to know where Cooper jumped to calculate elevation, the terminal velocity of the bag of money, and the deceleration rate of horizontal speed. For simplicity purposes, I'm assuming no deceleration of horizontal speed and a full 10,000 foot drop. The terminal velocity of the money bag is unknown, and therefore I used a wide range. The closest tributary is about 2 miles from the BTG-VOR turn point after factoring in a half mile buffer. If the terminal velocity is 90m/s, then the money bag will reach 0 elevation in about 38 seconds (+/- 1 sec). Because ground speed depends on where Cooper jumped along with several variables that are currently unknown (undisclosed or unrecorded), I cannot say for sure what the horizontal velocity of the bag was. On the high estimate, 200 mph of horizontal speed would yield a drift of 2.1 miles. If 90m/s seems a little fast for a canvas bag, then I also looked at a 50m/s terminal velocity. At this rate, the money would hit the ground in about 63 seconds. Because we're assuming a 50m/s terminal velocity, we must also assume that the money would slow down to at least this rate of speed during the fall. Without constant horizontal force, the bag would decelerate... I just cannot say how much and how quickly. Taking out all deceleration and any opposing winds, the money could theoretically travel 3.5 miles. The experienced DZ members could give us some insight as to horizontal speed decay, but my guess would be the total number of miles traveled would be cut at least in half, putting it outside of our target area. With our conservative assumptions, the money can feasibly travel far enough. The question then becomes, in what direction? The trajectory would follow the flight path. Taking our eastern most flight path, the money would miss our landing area by over a mile. Since we know there were winds of up to 30 mph, let's assume those constant winds and determine an eastward drift. With 63 seconds of fall time, the money could veer east half a mile. Keep in mind the area in question is a fringe border and if the money falls short of the border and then finds its way to water, it will adjoin the Columbia several miles north of where the money was found via Salmon Creek. Half a mile of wind drift will not push the money more than 1 mile it needs to land in the LaCamas tributary area. Please see LaCamas Fall for a visual description. Here's a few other things to consider: the area in question is comprised of farmlands. If the money had that level of horizontal and vertical speed, it's reasonable to conclude the bag would likely rip apart upon impact. It would certainly bounce and tumble, most likely spilling out the money encased inside. Since the money landed in farmlands, you have to assume no farmer ever saw any stacks of money. You also have to account for 3 stacks showing up in proximity to each other after traveling down some streams. Further, this scenario requires you to believe the money could float in LaCamas lake. Because of the trajectory, wind drift, and unlikely ancillary assumptions required to fit this theory, the conclusion is that Cooper could not have lost the money upon exit. Did Cooper die without pulling the ripcord? We've already determined that the money cannot find its way to the tributary zone by itself. Would money attached to Cooper make it more likely that it drifts into this zone? The short answer would be no. The horizontal speed deceleration would be greater, causing the drift distance to become shorter. Upon impact, the body might actually protect the money bag from ripping apart, so this aspect has improved. However, since the area in question happens to be farmlands, now you'd have to assume that no one ever saw a body and that the money bag stayed attached to Cooper upon landing but then detached itself over the years, tumbled into a stream, went down stream, into LaCamas Creek, into LaCamas Lake, made its way down into the mouth of the Washougal river, adjoined the Columbia river, and then washed up where the money was subsequently found. The trajectory doesn't support this, and the assumptions are great. All other jump points north of the Columbia river intersection will eventually feed the Columbia river north of where the money was found. Conclusion: Cooper did not die without pulling the ripcord. Did Cooper lose the money upon landing? Now that you've seen the areas in question, you know that we're dealing with a 2 mile distance from the closest tributary to the closest point on the flight path. However, now we're assuming that Cooper pulled his chute with the canvas bag still strung from his waist and that somehow, he still managed to lose the money. Because we're dealing with up to 10 minutes of canopy time, wind direction must be taken into account. We have SW to SSW winds. In fact, the winds are between 225 and 235 degrees. If Cooper free falls for 6 seconds before pulling his chute, he has already trimmed 675 feet or so from his canopy time. If he waits 8 seconds before pulling the ripcord, he has shaven more than a minute off his canopy time. Still, we're going to assume a full 10,000 feet. With ten minutes of canopy time, he can travel up to 4.4 miles if we disregard horizontal exit speed (which in this case, works against us). Using 4 to 4.4 miles and a wind of 225 to 235, along a flight path with a half mile buffer to either side, there is only one tributary area that Cooper can make it into. Please see Brush Prairie small jpg to see this area. You will see the distinct area outlined in blue. Each corner has a corresponding number. The three digit numbers you see within the encircled area are the elevations. Given our half mile buffer of flight path, it's essentially impossible for Cooper to land south of LC9 (LC means LaCamas, the pic only denotes the number 9). After looking at several derivative points, the only area within this particular zone that are feasible is north of point 9, and west of point 3 (in the brush prairie pic, it's point 3, in Target Area pic, it's point 4). This is truly a miniscule area when you consider the "theoretical" landing points were thought to be almost infinite. However, keep in mind, we're examining only this one theory: Cooper lost the money when he landed. Using the known coordinates of these LC points, I computed distance and bearing using FizzyCalc; navigation software that allows one to measure distances and angles. The 235 degree wind would have to be the predominant wind direction if Cooper were to make it into this area. The 225 degree path, in conjuction with the flight path, eliminates much of the feasible jump and landing points. Still, given what we know, it is feasible. Before we declare this theory true or not, we must examine all relevant factors. First, Cooper has to pull his chute almost immediately. As stated, if Cooper waits 6 to 8 seconds before pulling his ripcord, he has shaved up to 10% of his canopy time. In addition, in this time he has horizontal speed moving away from the target. Without knowing how fast his horizontal speed would decelerate, it's conceivable that he could travel up to a quarter mile the wrong way within 8 seconds. (180 mph likely ground speed = 1/20th of a mile per second X 6-8 seconds > .25 miles). While his horizontal exit speed does not disqualify the theory, it's something to take into consideration. The further he drifts, the further he has to travel under canopy to compensate and the less canopy time he has to do this. Also under this theory, the canvas bag must remain fully secured to Cooper's body during the entire descent. Upon landing, the bag must instantaneously detach itself from Cooper as he PLFs. Cooper would have to roll on the ground, get up, grab his chute in the dark, and then search endlessly for the money without finding it. He then has to give up entirely before morning. Sound likely? Before you answer yes, please look at the next picture, Target Area. Here you will see where Cooper must land. It's feasible for him to land anywhere within the boundaries, but his most likely area would be the west side of line 5-9 (this line is not drawn in on the pic). If have an aerial map of your own, you can zoom in on this area for yourself. You can actually see cows grazing in this pasture. If you believe Cooper lost the money upon landing, then you believe the money remained with him through exit, through canopy descent, and then detached in this farm area. You also believe that Cooper could not find the money bag and he left without it. Further, you believe that no local famers ever saw this money bag, even if they walked or tended to their fields with tractors. In addition, though the lands are generally flat, you believe the money somehow rolled down into one of the (very tiny) streams and eventually made its way into LaCamas Creek. You then believe the money was able to float in LaCamas Lake and drifted south without any fishermen ever seeing it. You then believe the money made its way to the Columbia, drifted downstream and deposited itself where it was found on 2-10-1980. Did it happen this way? Well, looking at what you must believe for this to occur, no. Conclusion: I have a better chance at winning the powerball lottery than of this scenario panning out. It's possible, but highly unlikely, and by highly unlikely, I mean 145 million to 1. (though I'm no statistician so don't quote me on that). Here's a bonus theory to explore: Did Cooper pull his chute and then die upon impact anyway? You already know where he must land for this to happen. You already know what you must accept about the money for this to have happened. Now we add a second variable which is that the money never detached from Cooper's body until some later point after his death. Assuming Cooper can land in this target zone (and that is an IF that we'll discuss in a moment), he has to enjoy sustained winds between 23 and 29 mph. The ground winds were 17 mph. His lateral speed would have slowed to 17 mph. Upon landing, we have to assume that this rate of speed is enough to kill him. There are hardly any trees in the target zone, and therefore, his death would be strictly from a bad landing. He'd have to PLF and break his neck. His canopy would be open, his body would lie on the ground. The general area is pasture lands owned by farmers. With news of the Cooper hijacking everywhere, you have to assume that no farmer ever saw the canopy or Cooper's dead body on their land. You then have to assume everything else covered in the last question. To quote a well known skydiver of the NW: "I'm just convinced that if he pulled the ripcord, he made it" ~ Earl Cossey in a 1979 interview I mentioned "if" Cooper can make it into the target area. The confounding variable that was not explored was the timeline. There were too many unknowns to calculate the ground speed, and even if I was successful, the plane did not fly at a constant rate. I can tell you that the distance between point F on Ckret's map that he posted (pg 47 I believe) to the transponder known as BTG-VOR is roughly 7.8 miles. If the plane was at point F at precisely 8:12, then as the plane is changing its header and venturing towards the RAWER intersection, it's precariously close to 8:15. As the plane moves south and intersects with present day I-205, we are certainly flirting with a post 8:15 timeline. Though the 205 was not there in 1971, this intersection is roughly where Cooper would have to jump inorder to make it into the "target zone". All other areas are impossible. Please see the next picture (distance to t zone sm). You will see the 225 degree angle quickly becomes unachievable as the plane travels south. This tributary "zone" only progresses east as you trace it south, thus, the distance increases drastically as the plane flies south (see distance increases jpg & tributary zone 2 sm). Simply put, if Cooper does not make it into the target zone, and if he jumps before the plane makes its way to the Columbia river, then someone moved the money by foot at some point. The only variable not fully accounted for is the "known" flight path utilzing radar information from McCord AFB. The plane would have had to venture significantly east, or failed to change headers by a substantial distance for a new target zone to emerge. Further, if a new target zone could be shown, you still have an issue of money floating in LaCamas lake for a period of time without any fishermen ever seeing it. For an idea on just how far the plane would have to venture east, on these pictures, the left white line denotes the actual assumed flight path, the line on the right is half a mile east. I did not create a line to the west since it really had little relevance to what we were measuring. Therefore, the likely conclusion: Cooper survived the jump.

I agree with all of these posts. I'm not Skyjack71, so I can't say regarding off the forum behavior, but of what I've seen on here, Ckret has been of tremendous help. This thread would be no where without him on here. The posts on this thread are about 4 times more when he's around then when he isn't. Even when I mistook his Kool Aid comment, I still wasn't really mad, I was just upset. Anyway... obviously we've made some and are making strides. Big thanks to all of DZ who is making this possible. I promised an updated post regarding flight path and possible landing areas. I have a lot of this work done and I'm being a little more detailed this time around... mostly because I've learned as I've gone, but also that we're actually dealing with "live" scenarios (ones that could theoretically have happened). I'm not sure when I'll be able to post everything, but it is coming soon, and it will hopefully give us more to talk about. Let's get back to the teletype... I want to see the additional pages. Plus, I used to be under the impression that the pressure bump and oscillation occured simultaneously, but since the oscillation was never mentioned, I started thinking maybe not... but then it was mentioned in the teletype conversation. Ckret, is there other corroborating testimony that would suggest the two happened at the same time?? I would think the aft stairs slamming into the fuselage would quickly alter the plane's aerodynamics and would cause such an oscillation...

It appears to me that these transcripts are from someone sitting in a room somewhere recording the main points discussed via radio. I don't think these are from the second officer, but just my impression. I'm looking forward to the next few pages. 377, I'm working on a revised analysis of the landing zone that will take the timeline out of consideration (at least for the most part). Perhaps it will get posted tonight some time.

Maybe we should all just compile a list of questions we have due to conflicting reports, such as the interphone word and then take the list of Q's to Himmelsbach to see if he knows the answer or to see if it was speculation or faulty information. Skyjack71, maybe you should visit a local DZ and talk to some old timers. Maybe someone would have an old harness that you actually look at and feel... just an idea. I've made some progress in the Washougal tributary study. Remember, with this one, we're isolating the washougal river from LaCamas. It was Washougal that flooded in 1977. I've always felt that LaCamas was a very weak tributary if we're going to try and argue for it... the reasons are because the money/body would have to float in the lake without ever being seen by fishermen, and there's been so much development in the areas that feed LaCamas, it's much harder to hide a body/open canopy in this area. Further, the areas that feed LaCamas tend to be a lot less wooded, it's much more pasture type areas. I now need to narrow down the flight path as it headed south. What I need to know, if possible, is how the plane routed itself compared to the various beacons. It would have traveled to the battle ground VOR and then headed for Rawler towards Salem. Not only do I need to figure out where these beacons are, I need to know how the plane would fly over/near these points. Plus, Captain Scott was flying by hand a lot and has admitted he may have "drifted off course" slightly to the east. Therefore, I'd say the radar from McCord would be the most accurate as to the flight path. But any information from those in the DZ community as to how a pilot uses the beacons to fly, that would be great. In other words, does he fly directly over the beacon and then just head towards the next one? Or does he use them as general guidelines?

Very good. I take it then they spread out all three bundles? If I understand the "knowns" regarding the money, we're looking at money that had some significant protection from the elements for a long period of time, possibly until the point when they washed up, and they washed up between Feb 10 1979 and Feb 10 1980. We can probably narrow this range somewhat in that some time obviously passed. If it were a year, perhaps the "people" in the know would have said it's about a year, but they said less than a year, and the wear would suggest more than a day, so it's likely a significant time after 2-10-79 and before 2-10-80. Is there anything in the reports that would give us a clue to possibly narrow this range further?

The collective IQ of the DZ forum has to be near a 1,000. You guys are geniuses! Okay... here's a thought. The rubber bands have to be enclosed in *something* for a period of time. From Ckret's post about them, he mentioned them crumbling to the touch... I think through time and being on the beach for however long it was, it would explain the wear. But how long could they last before just crumbling off without anyone touching? They also need to be strong enough at the time they flowed down the river and deposited on the beach. When I say *something* had to enclose the money, that assumes Cooper didn't have them stacked in his kitchen pantry before going out and "planting" them on a random beach. I've seen the melting you're referring to, it ruins things, but usually I've seen this as a result of heat, such as sitting in a car. I've never seen anything like this on money sitting in my safe... but then again, I haven't had the same bills in there for 8 years (and the conditions could hardly compare to what we're talking about). Would a damp, dark, and somewhat enclosed environment (such as canvas bag either buried or lying around in the woods) keep the rubber in pretty good condition for a long period of time? Ckret, do you have pictures of these bills? And by pictures, I mean pictures of the stacks before they're spread out, or did the ingrams already spread them out before the FBI got there?

The thing is, there's different types of "elements" we ought to be mindful of. 377 mentioned UV. Just speaking of money only, UV would fade the outer bills while the inner bills were protected. Then there's water... well, there's obviously water damage and there would be no matter what... the question is, what type of damage are we talking about? Does it look like stacks were just sitting at the bottom in silt of a river? How quickly would stacks rot from mold if they just sat out... sitting out would cause them to get wet, but also dry quicker. But then they'd be exposed to wind & rain. But, if it were in a bag, it would be protected from all sun, wind, and rain, along with most debris... but the moisture that could creep in would stay longer and linger, which would provide a nice environment for even more mold. I'd think wrapping the bag in a parachute would help to keep moisture out, and also keep it there more once it penetrated the fabrics. Burying under ground would act the same way, protecting it, but also locking moisture in... plus, in rainy season, if you bury something dry in the dirt, you may as well just throw it in a lake... I did this once as a kid in the NW and it was a disaster. Actually, I think it would be worse than a lake because a lake would at least keep air out, while the combination of air + water would equal destruction. The question we want to ask ourselves eventually, if it's even possible, is how much of the damage to the bills happend while it sat on the beach, and how much happened before it got there? The bills crumbling apart definitely sound like post-beach... while the rot could be from either. I think Ckret is right in looking at the rubber bands for more clues.... I think the crumbling rubber bands also seems post-beach, due to wild swings in humidity, possible UV damage, and dramatic changes in temperature.

Very useful post. It would appear that the FBI agent who made the report errored in either the "6" part of NB6 or the "8" part in 28'. I'm guessing you're right, that it wasn't a 28 stuffed into a 26 container. What would be the main differences between the 26' conical and the 28' that many have spoke of on this thread? It sounds like both were very common. We mentioned the 28 cannot steer and I'd guess that would go for the 26 as well? I'd also guess the 26 gives a slightly faster descend rate than the 28, yes? But then perhaps Cooper can theoretically pull the ripcord faster even though he has all that horizontal speed? As for Cooper opening the Chute... we know he opened the other main, this is the one Ckret shows on TV all the time, it's a pink canopy and the pack appears to be green.

I hear what you're saying. I was speaking in general terms... you're speaking specifically. The condition of the money absolutely shows some level of protection from the elements. Sure, they were weathered bills, but they were also out there somewhere for about 8 years. EIGHT YEARS! This isn't the desert, folks. This is the NW where you drive around and see roof tops and siding riddled with moss, and where real estate contracts almost always have "mold" disclosures. The very fact that any of those bills were legible only shows how miraculous the find was. Therefore, the likely conclusion is that the money was protected by the money bag itself. Personally, I'm open to the idea that it could be sheltered by more than just a money bag. It would depend on where it's stored, but if the money bag is out in the elements, water would soak through to the money and it would be rotting almost immediately... but this is a better theory than a money bag sinking to the bottom of a river and then trying to explain how it suddenly floats to the surface. If the "protection" is only the canvas bag, I think the money would fare better if it were suspended from a tree limb than if it were sitting on the ground somewhere, simply because the bag can dry out easier. Plus, a tree would give it some additional shelter from the rain.

Exactly. Or anyone else that has some military experience and would have that particular frame of reference. I'd say of course this sounds viable. Until we bumped out the timeline of the jump I thought it was not possible that he "lost" money in the air... but if this happened or not, the money that turned up, at the very least would be money left behind or lost.... if not just part of the entire loot if Cooper really died.

I don't know what material it was made of... all I know is what the person who found it said, that he folded it up and put it in his shirt pocket. Sounds more like a sticker to me if this is the case, unless flat tin can bend easily. I'm unaware of prior jumps or similar heists, other than McCoy's. I've seen the same pages on the internet that you're referring to, and I don't know anything more than you do. Maybe Cooper was a copycat, but I would think he spent more than 2 weeks thinking about this. If something similar happened two weeks earlier, then I'm guessing it's pure coincidence. There were hijackings before Cooper, but my understanding was that Cooper's was the first in U.S. airspace, which, if my understanding is correct, would mean that internet page has their facts wrong... but what do I know? Conspiracy angle: Well, I'm shooting from the hip here... McCoy was in college. He was involved somewhere in the military, so if there was a "conspiracy" that's where I'd expect to see it... military associates. Cooper himself, from the sounds of it, was of military background somewhere in his life. McCoy's jump was much more thought out than Coopers, but if they knew each other, then maybe McCoy really did "learn"from Cooper (and I'm sure he did, it was a pretty good blue print to follow)... McCoy, I believe, brought his own gear. He grew out his facial hair and then shaved in the lavratory before he jumped. I'm not sure, but I think he had a specific escape route planned out. If these things are true, they're all improvements.... Now we don't know anything about this alledged first jump two weeks prior to Cooper's, but if we had more info, maybe we could look into the "conspiracy" angle more. Military buddies... that's the only I way I think.

That's an impressive post. If we can bank on what you're saying, then it would certainly point towards military jumper and not a pilot (as has been theorized) nor a sport jumper (which has also been theorized). Another thing that would point away from a sport jumper is that he did not request any particular type of chute, and the one he got could not steer... and apparently, he was okay with this when Tina mistakenly told him his chutes were coming from McCord. This would also tend to point AWAY from help on the ground or a very detailed & planned escape route. Frankly, your post, if we can rely on what you're saying (and it would sound that way, but I'm totally blind to this stuff), then we've narrowed Cooper's profile significantly.

377, That's a good idea. Unfortunately my knowledge of the placard is fairly limited: It was found somewhere in Cowlitz County, up in the woods (it's very hilly in some parts there). The person who found it was out hunting with some friends (I believe) and one of their habits was to collect trash that they'd find while out. Well, he found the placard but didn't think about it much, he folded it up like it was a candy wrapper and put it in his flannel shirt pocket. When they were done for the day, they went to throw away any trash and he unfolded it and read what it said: (it was torn) "ERGENCY IT HANDLE Aft Airstair To Operate Access Door, Pull on R dle. Lock wire will bre hen handle is pulled" He thought it looked important, especially since almost everyone in this area was familiar with the Cooper case. I don't know about NWA confirming it, but from what I know, the FBI confirmed it to be from flight 305. Maybe Ckret can give us a map location for this find... all I have is that it was "near" Toutle.

It was the north face of the mountain that blew. Mt. St. Helens is also well to the NE of the areas we're talking about. If Mt. St. Helens erupting destroyed Cooper or evidence, then we're way off... and by way off, I actually mean he would have landed at minimum 20 to 30 miles to the north, and thus, the money would only be explained by him moving it... which would lead us back to him not dying, which would make the whole Mt. St. Helens thing circular and impossible. Sorry for the mental stretching on that, I guess the simple answer is no, St. Helens could not have harmed the remains. Interesting though that the money showed up about 2 months before it erupted. Ckret, I wouldn't worry about energy sucking out. I was only hoping that we could find something that would give us more reliable information. Anything that you can find would be helpful... anything. I'm in the middle of outlining the Washougal tributaries for you... don't know when I will finish.