SafecrackingPLF

Warm wet parachute to zero F? I don't think it got as low as 0 that night, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Generally, at that time of year, it might get a little below freezing, but not 32 degrees worth unless there's an artic blast. Also, wet parachute? Do you mean it was raining hard? Raining hard or not... what makes you think Cooper would sit around trying to get warm? Wouldn't he be better served by getting on the move to increase his body temp? Plus, if it were me, I'd have too much adrenaline... I just jumped off a freakin airliner and I have 200k of cash. I think it would be a bit tough to stand still. Here's another thing to ponder... unless someone later came around and found his dead body with the money, Cooper had to move a minimum of 10 miles (this based on landing area verses where the money was found, see pg 47)... if he moves 10 miles, then wouldn't it make sense that he'd do this sooner rather than later? After all, it's not like it's getting warmer and he's better off by waiting. I'm not sure how many lunches he packed in that paper sack of his.

377, I love your enthusiasm. However, using the facts of the case, it's been proven that Cooper could not have died "in the jump". If Cooper died, he died after he traveled at least 10 to 12 miles with the money. Please see pages 43 & 44 of this thread along with page, I believe it's 47 after Ckret posted the FBI map showing radar information, drift estimates from Boeing, and the calculated landing area. Now, if we want to argue the known facts, such as how captain Scott recorded a pressure bump at 8:11, then we can all debate it. Personally, I think we can give it an honest range of 8:10-8:12 but I think this is already accounted for on Ckret's map. There were three lines on it, and IMO it would seem each line represeted 2010, 2011, and 2012. Captain Scott noted the pressure bump both on his instruments and in a "ear's popping experience" and he noted the time but did not note his location. The location was later determined using radar from McCord Air Force Base.

Good questions whuffo (though, you're not really a whuffo, are you?) I certainly do not have a proper answer for you, I can only speculate... perhaps there was a pressure bump or perhaps the pressure bump wasn't quite as profound since it was a larger 727 (though I wouldn't count on that). They also caught McCoy, so maybe the location of his jump was of less significance in the larger scheme of reporting and so we never hear of a pressure bump. I don't know... Ckret, any information here? No. The pressure bump was the stairs slamming back into the fuselage. It never locked itself shut. It slammed but remained open.

Once it's accepted that the money did not get there simply by falling from the plane, with or without a body attached to it, then your question is obviously the next one to consider. You can re-enact the jump, and I think this would be a good idea, but it will not provide you with any further answers to this question, it will only support the answer to the previous question (ie, can the money get to where it was found by falling from the plane?). I already answered that last question and the answer is no. The way I see it, the next question of how the money got there is much harder to answer. The reason is because it's not a simple yes or no answer. Now that you've told us they processed the boarding pass for fingerprints, can you tell us if this was the carbonized copy, the top copy, or if there was even a copy at all? No offense, but if the FBI never figured this out back in 71/72, then we've been wasting our time here. This would mean he could have jumped anywhere! However, isn't it odd that the FBI concluded through testing and radar information from a US Air Force base that the probable jump zone just so happened to be in the region where money turned up in 1980? In other words, the guy didn't jump in Reno. Now, if you want to argue that he threw some wads out the back as the plane flew over the Columbia (which can only happen if the pressure bump was NOT Cooper, and Cooper remained on the plane)... you still have to explain how the money only washed up 8 years later and it was well above the 1974 layer in the sand. Now this is a legitimate question. I think the best answer is as follows... I cannot take credit for it because Duane Weber gave me the idea. You will remember that while he was reading the only book he ever read in front of skyjack71 while they were married, he began to chuckle to himself and then mumbled something about the bomb actually being road flares. If I'm not mistaken, he may have actually said this on a seperate occasion to Skyjack71 (that normal people cannot tell the difference between dynamite and road flares). Regardless of if Duane was Cooper or not, I think his idea is likely the correct hypothesis for your question. Let's assume the bomb was road flares surrounding a large battery... he probably does not have a flashlight to go with the battery... not unless he's great at hiding things, but he does have 6 to 8 road flares. Because he's unaware of the pressure bump, he's also unaware that anyone would be looking for him in that area. For all he knows, they have no clue where he jumped. He lights up a road flare to see where he's going and is able to at least make his way through the woods. He'd have a general idea of N-S-E-W simply from when he landed and seeing the lights of Portland and the lights of Merwin Dam (which were very bright and close to where he landed). Edited to add this next paragraph: If Duane Weber's idea were to be true (bomb was roadflares), then he lands right around 8:20 pm. Even if he spends two hours gathering his composure, he would have about 7 hours until daybreak the following morning to get himself out of the search zone. Even if he traveled a paltry 1 mile per hour, he's moved 7 miles before daybreak. Now a question for Ckret... were they able to get prints from the ticket or not? You stated they were processed, but not if anything viable was retrieved from them.

Couldn't they also have pulled prints from said ticket?

Solving the case is a VERY, VERY long ways away. Whatever it is, keep your composure, the case is 36+ yrs old & I'm sure some patience would go a long ways. Whatever it is, I wish you luck.

doh! Minute, of course.

The river was dredged in 74 and the silt from the river was placed onto the beach. This silt formed a layer. A geologist identified this layer while looking at the beach where the money was found. They dug a channel to inspect the cross section of layers. Anything above this layer is post 1974. If I recall, the layer was about 18 inches down.

I've spent some time REALLY going over that landing zone map that Ckret posted. I was able to find points J & N looking really close at the topography and figuring out where streams would be based on that topography. I had to eyeball the points where the flight path(s) cross the Lewis River. Then, using La Center and Merwin as guides, I isolated the area on a google map. The flight path isn't exact, but it's damned close. I then spent some extra time (a few hours) pinpointing the exact boundaries of the tributaries. I was then able to take the southern most jump point and compare it to the furthest NW point that can feed a proper tributary. Now, this point I used, IMO is not viable because it happens to be located on a farm, and I think the stream isn't even a stream... BUT, since I'm not a professional, I'm giving the most amount of leeway by selecting this point. I then used two landmarks on I-5 to calculate a driving distance using mapquest. The lines between the two points I used (Jumping & Tributary) are only a fraction smaller. It's roughly 9.0 miles from the SE most jump point to the closest (NW) tributary point. 9 miles. The elevation at the NW corner of the tributary range is 290 ft. That leaves us with a possible jump of 9710 feet. NickDG was kind enough to tell me that a 28' round canopy like this one drops at a rate about 1,000 feet per minute. That would mean he has just under 10 minutes, IF (and that's a big if) he pulls his chute immediately. We know from one of Ckret's post that the winds that night were between 13.8 & 16.1 mph (using a knotical conversion). The landing zone map of Ckret's shows a SW wind. However, we need a NNW wind. Putting this aside, with 10 minutes of canopy time, he has to drift 9 miles. That's roughly winds of 54mph. In no place within the landing zone are there creeks or streams that feed south of where the money was found. To the north, the creeks there feed the Lewis River. To the south, those creeks also feed the Lewis River with the very southern most area feeding the east fork of Lewis. These all adjoin the Columbia in Map 50 of my post on page 44. The question we can now ask ourselves is, was all the information the FBI got from McCord, Boeing, and the flight crew accurate? From the looks of it, they were fairly certain. It was only after the money was discovered that people second guessed. In 71, they put a lot of time and effort into searching that landing area... would they have done this if they were't sure of their facts? In a statistical measure, looking at the variation of the landing zone... I'd venture to guess the standard deviation of 9 miles in the wrong direction to be around 6; essentially impossible. Cooper could not have drowned in Lake Merwin. If he does, the money cannot float upstream. Remember these waters form the Lewis River. Tosaw at least had a somewhat plausible idea... that Cooper landed in the Columbia River. Personally, I think this is impossible.... that is unless Ckret wants to go in and single handedly re-investigate all the radar information that was given to the FBI that night. The Columbia River theory also has some significant weaknesses if we can get beyond this... Cooper, his chute, and the bag of money have to sink. They have to lie at the bottom of the river for 7+ years and then the money magically float to the top and wash up just downstream. Yes, many people have theories, but if we work through them one by one, we might be able to demonstrate if the theory is plausible. Right now, unless Ckret wants to re-examine the facts and double check them... Cooper did not die in Lake Merwin Cooper did not drift to the Columbia River Cooper did not land near a tributary that would explain the money found in 1980. The only explanation is that someone moved the money at some point. If you want to debate the likliness of someone other than Cooper moving the money, then have it. I submit, the likely outcome was that Cooper himself moved the money. Where he moved it to is a different question than the one I'm answering. Please see the attached (distance). The red line on it is the effective drift line Cooper would have had to go on if he were to land on that farm, which is the closest tributary. Incidentally, it feeds LaCamas, and IMO, LaCamas is the weakest of all tributaries simply because the money has to float in the lake & float all the way to the southern most point of the lake... and it is/was highly used by fishermen who would have had to never see it. Incidentally, if you think he may have landed exactly where the money landed, it's at least 9 miles in the opposite direction... he needs NNE winds of 54+mph, and he has to lie there, out in the open, for years without anyone ever seeing him. The money has to get there relatively shortly before it's found. The 1974 layer in the sand, from my recollection (and Ckret, correct me please if I'm wrong) was a foot and a half down. There's just no way this happens either. Orange1, there's nothing wrong with everyone having their opinion... it's a GOOD thing. It's just some opinions are more viable than others, and truly, a viable theory should fit the "facts". What I've outlined above here, is as close to factual as it gets. Now if McCord has their radar wrong, the known winds are wrong, the altitude is wrong, or the crew felt the bump at 8:16 instead of 8:11... maybe we can argue as to the fact that someone has to move the money. Edited to correct feet per second to feet per minute... no parachutist drops as fast as a speeding bullet, LOL.

My apologies, it was actually a 28'... I shot from the hip the other day without looking back at Ckret's post about the canopy size. I second the question... was it steerable? My guess is yes, but more information would be terrific!

I think you have a good idea, do like a mythbusters episode. There's one problem though... And that is, right now, *something* is incorrect. It could be a number of things: The altitude of the jet The time under the canopy The flight path The time of the pressure bump The location of the plane when the bump occured The known winds that night The theory that Cooper died I will dig deeper when I have some time, but without really looking, I can tell you if the map Ckret provided is anywhere near accurate, we have a problem.

Thank you... this is why we're on this DZ forum, I would have just "ass"umed the wind to his back, but then I just made an ass out of me. Google Long/Lat? I don't... but you can see in his map, the area in question. I don't have time now to figure out all the landmarks on his map and put it into a google map, but you can see the flight path lines are all west of Lake Merwin (which is in the upper right of his map), the bottom right shows a creek that appears to be traveling SW but I'd have to look and find this creek. Just above the lower left, La Center is clearly labeled. I can't make out anything in the upper left.

Absolutely excellent! I will scour this over when I have some time. But in looking briefly, it appears that Cooper would have to drift NE once he jumped... in other words, NE winds. The descriptions were good. It seemed Tina actually took a closer look (more time with him? Less stress and more attention to detail?). Was there anything in the follow up regarding his hairline, thinning hair? I ask only because people have postulated on this. Plus, we've heard that Rose was working with witnesses to fine-tune his picture (though I think Skyjack was going to confirm this or not). If Rose did fine-tune his picture, is there any record of other comments that may have been made while working with artist rendering? Thank you much. This stuff is fantastic! That's a hell of a map!

I happen to disagree regarding the "everyman" sketch, but I see what you're saying... there aren't any obvious characteristics on it. Maybe Cooper himself didn't have anything that really stood out? I don't know, let's find out... Ckret, you have stated that Florence & Tina gave nearly identical descriptions of Cooper despite being interviewed in different cities. Is there a way for us to be able to read these descriptions? Did Cooper have a receeding hair-line? Did Cooper have a strong widows peak? Anything else that stood out about Cooper that we may not get in the final sketch?

Please see pages 40-42 for the recent discussion of Mayfield. You were making posts in those pages, so I don't understand the confusion. In 1988, Florence Schaffner helped to create a new composite sketch of Dan Cooper. This was filmed by Unsolved Mysteries. This sketch was posted on this forum in late November/early December. Interesting theories regarding the different sketches. "stick" figure sketch and "anyone" sketch. I always thought the sketch that could fit almost anyone was the less detailed one, known as the Bing Crosby sketch but I learn something new everyday! Skyjack71, didn't you mention on several occasions in this forum & in others that Pasternak met with Roy Rose to discuss the sketch of Cooper? You also said that he specifically told Pasternak of a facial feature that he was attempting to depict, and before Pasternak could tell you what this feature was, you jumped the gun and told Pasternak what Rose had said? Do I understand you well?

I didn't put a post on YouTube... I went there to watch interviews by two guys who studied Mayfield. Based on those interviews, I came up with 8 reasons why it was Mayfield and then added that he matched the 88 composite for a total of 9. Of the 9 items, we've only had confirmation of one of them... and it plainly disputed what I had written. Thanks LowPull... will wait for Ckret to give us more information and then figure it all out like you outlined.

Thank you! You were making your post right as I was editing to ask the hang time estimate. I think that's an easier place to start... how long he's up in the air. The 10,000 feet figure makes it simple... if it turns out to be close, then we can debate the liklihood of 10,000 feet (because it's obviously less than this). Looks like Ckret was just out catching criminals and he's stated he will have to correct the flight path... good, that's all we can ask. In the meantime, figuring out his time under the canopy will be helpful for when we do figure out the precise location of the jet. Edit: FYI, I can't go back and fix this, but the first two maps on the tributary study, the lake pictured is actually Yale, not Merwin... but the water feeds into Merwin anyway further west. Just wanted to correct this error.

Thanks BGill, Orange1, and Rainman. I wasn't meaning to criticize the Mayfield theory, but maybe you were referring to the other poster who did. If I tell you that I think it was my uncle, then I'm also going to say WHY I think this way. No one, other than myself, has ever said why they think it was Mayfield... at least not on this forum. BGill, From memory I can approximate some of the response... I believe the canopy was 26', Cooper was between 170 and 180lbs, the money alone weighed I think 21 lbs, they used a 200lb sled to approximate Cooper's total weight, so I'd guess somewhere around 200lbs. As for weather conditions, from what I recall on this thread, I've gotten mixed opinions. Ckret described a cloud cover at 5,000 feet. How thick this cloud cover is, I don't know... was it where he jumped, I don't know. We'll probably never know. The only ones who would know are the two captains. But, before we dig into the "problems" of assuming the FBI theory is incorrect, let's at least determine what has to be true if the theory were to also be true. I agree, Carr is probably on vacation or apprehending bank robbers. He will have some catching up to do... Thanks to those who have responded and to those who will respond further. Edit: Follow up question... what would be a likely hang time if someone pulled the ripcord at 10,000 feet with a 26' round canopy and weighed roughly 200 pounds? Hang time... how many minutes do you think it would take to reach the ground? For simplicity sake, let's assume he lands at sea level (even though he'd have to actually land higher than this)

WTF? Tom & Jerry? I realize that without Ckret on here, figuring out whatever portions of the crime we might be able to figure out become more challenging... BUT, the question I posted about how far someone can drift between 10,000 feet and ground 0 is a reasonable question for experienced jumpers. I don't see why that has to be made fun of. I spent time figuring out where the money has to land if it indeed did as the FBI has theorized for decades and I just want to confirm or deny if it's possible, and if possible, determine the most likely place it would have landed.

Thank you, that's what I thought. Please look at the following map. You will see the estimated timeline along the flight path. If we only take 8:11-8:12, then the distance from the jump point to what I referred to as the hot zone appears (eyeballing it) to be 14-17 miles if traveling in a straight line into the closest corner of the hot zone. My question is this... let's assume Cooper does this SL style and pulls the chute as quickly as he can. If he pulls his chute close to 10,000 feet, what speed, if any, do the crosswinds needs to be in order for him to land in this zone? Now, I just asked this question under the guise of Cooper pulling the rip cord... I realize if he pulls his rip cord and THEN dies upon impact, that creates some issues as well (deployed chute attached to a dead body that no one ever finds). I don't want to deal with that, I *only* want to know what has to be true for the theory of the floating money to also be true. Rough estimates? Approximations? Calculated answers? They're all welcome. Thank you!!!

Am I the only one that found it a little disheartening... I had just made that monster post on Saturday night regarding the tributaries... on the face of it, it would appear the official theory that Cooper died and the money found its way harmlessly into Ingram's hands would be debunked, but then we never did get a response on that flight path, the groundspeed and such and so we're still left with what we had before... Cooper lost control, Cooper didn't pull the chute, Cooper lost the money on the way down, Cooper's shoes came off, the Cooper case has been solved, etc etc We still have work to do. I was unaware everything had been solved, experts figured out the money was buried, etc. The minute I made that post, all these claims are made with no substance. I for one am growing a little weary. Thank you to the DZ community. Groundspeed, I didn't even think of this... which is why I need to get out there and get some jumps under my belt. What kind of wind was there that night? Let me confirm... if he pulls the chute, he can drift a lot further than if he freefalls? If we determine that he absolutely MUST drift... or I should say the MONEY has to drift into the hot zone, then Cooper pulled his chute okay? Does this seem reasonable? If you haven't seen my six posts regarding streams, it's a few pages back bottom of pg 43 to top of pg 44, and the last attachment shows the zone & flight path.

My apologies, I went to YouTube to figure out the reasons Mayfield may have committed the crime, and then I came here and made a post because a few people kept saying he did it, he did it, but no one would post a single reason. I made a post with 9 reasons, including that he matched the 88 composite (of which I have no proof of this because I've never seen the 1974 picture and it has never been posted here). I guess Ed Bradley, along with the "two" that you speak of, have finally solved the Cooper case. I just wish someone could fill us in on some of the details.

I think every single person on this board is willing to listen. The Case has been solved!!! Hallelujah! Okay, now let's hear the details. I went to YouTube and then made a post with 9 reasons why Mayfield did it. One of those reasons was shot to hell without an utterance from anyone who solved this case. We're all listening... in fact, BEGGING, PLEADING... Please, for the Love of God, tell us the details! The case has been solved, then let's hear the solution. Please, please... I'm begging you please.

Agreed SkydiveJack. I appreciate a diversion to make a point, but let's do our best to keep this thread somewhat related to Cooper. Send a PM back and forth if you want to debate TWA 800. We have not heard from Ckret in a while. I hope he's okay... he's probably just out traveling or busy locking up a high profile bank robber.

As far as I can tell, you're spot on. From my standpoint, the reason to continue to theorize and hunt for information on suspects is simply because we can hope to one day find a piece of hard evidence... I'm holding to that hope that somewhere there's something that will tie a suspect to the crime.