mccordia

We are not talking about that jump in particular.. This is more on defening a formation/flock in general, and coming up with some hard criterea to judge the results by.... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Then dont read it? Thats 100% what this discussion is NOT about. This is a search for a set of definitions/rules which will help us outline what a formation is, both to ourselves and to the public (be it whuffos or FAI). Thus meaning you can actually name something 'a formation' by a set of standards. Otherwise we'll always stay at the levels of 'messy group jumps' counted only by the number of people who exited the airplane. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Its bad weather...foregive us The used reviews from the previous Ghost will probably still be accurate, with the addition of improved inflation on all #2 models of the PF fleet. So its probably safe to say its a good and stable platform for the flocker keen on long freefalls, and nice relaxed flying with people of all sizes. We should have some demo Ghost2's with us in Empuria Brava coming May (if you want to give the suit a try yourself). JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Carefull..he's like one of those Nigerian scam artists... I know he's succesfully tried that one with other people already Remember: first put em on a cup of steamy hot tea for about 2 minutes. Then, once the sirup has started to soften/melt..eat! JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Though indeed another (atm very emotional) subject we should not delve into. With regards to validating 'what' a formation is, its INDEED a good subject we should try and sort out. Imagine somewhere in the dark backcountries of Kazachstan, some funny man with a big mustache organises and flies a '75 way'. Not completely perfect, yet they do claim the worlds biggest formation* I think that will cause a lot of uproar with the previous 71 way record crowd. Especialy if it doesnt come anywhere near what the current 71 way flock showed in terms of precision and flying. When such a situation arrises. I know a lot of people then WILL be trying to define exactly WHAT was done in terms of flying/formation, to be able to validate (be it for our own limited crowd, with un-official status) what made the previous formation a record (perfect formation/close to slot perfect formation) So defining WHAT we see as a formation, and by which standards to look at it for validation..its important. Once we set up a decent standard/way of judging, we could even go as far as 'electing' our own judges and form a 'wingsuit record organision' with a website and pix of all previous and current records. Maybe even in different catagories in terms of slot specific flying or 'wild' flocks. But before we're at that stage...lets try and see what we're looking at...completely agree with ya there JB.. Cheers, the Jellyman! *claiming a record in the media, and claiming (or we as a group acknowledging) it within the world of skydiving are two different things...if I call a newspaper and mail em pix and tell em I just did a record jump over my hometown. I have a media-record..dont give media-records too much thought, and focus on the ackowledgement within the discipline.. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Last time I checked you had a DUTCH passport Hans.... Whats this world coming to. Tristan pretending to be Dutch, Hans pretending to be Belgian...*snif* Belgium is nothing more than a bastard country, created when Holland and France got sick of that piece of land (with the French and Dutch parts STILL bitching to this day which language to speak) Holland! We're a proud nation damnit! All these great things we've done! We killed the Dodo's and made em extinct! We started slavery! Errh...em..wait...Can I be Belgian too? JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Then clearly you should have played with this more often in the 'several years you've been doing this' Its dependant of the side of your subject you are flying on. Ive had a bracket tilted 90 degrees left, which ment a subject on my right would be framed normaly. The bracket I had was actually ment for my stills cam, but played with a bit for wingsuit video in the beginning. But the resulting video wasnt really on level, as my head would usually be cranked sideways at +- 45 degrees. Meanig the bracket only tilted the video 45% the other direction in most cases.. Most wingsuit video you see is shot at a 45 degree angle. Making a bracket for that amount of tilt would be a better idea.. For me personaly..Ive learnt to tilt my head in scary un-natural ways over the past few years, and usually only have 15 to 20 degrees of tilt. Not enough to warrent using a tilted camera-setup (giving the implications for other forms of flying, and not wanting to have to adjust the setup with every jump I make) JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

I think Id qualify the Lodi 16 way, TopGun 7 way, TopGun 6 way as completed flocks, with no real improvents possible in terms of even spacing and symetry in all directions. The Empuria 8 way would also count as a completed flock in my book, only with a minor comment on the spacing near the base. But still complete. On all these, Im just using my eyeball as the judge. Are people all in their slot or not. If a formation slightly stretches in one direction, but all slots are still flown properly. Id still count it as a complete formation. I think a simple way of saying it would be: you should just be able to recognize the complete (intended) formation at first glance. And not have to puzzle for even one second on who should be where. Everyone should be in slot, and the spacing should be (quite) even throughout the formation. With clear defined lines/slots flown. The Deland 23 way, though a nice flock, wouldnt count as a completed formation to me. Few people clearly out, and some issues with symetry/allignment in the different rows. The Stupino formation, though nicely crowded, not really a clear recognisable formation. Quite clear there are more than a few ppl out. The Z flock 16 way. Really nice in the 9 way base (though ever so slightly sqewered/stretched) with everyone clearly in slot. The outside row on the bottom all fly at a slighly larger distance (in both X and Y), and would have to each move half a meter to 2 meters to make it a flock that I would rate slotperfect. Attached an image with a formation pic. overlayed on the image. Slighly adjusting rows throughout the formation, to maintain a good shape of all the rows. Though not the exact position everyone should fly, it does show some people being a bit out of their wishfull/ideal placement/slot. I dont know if 'the perfect flock' can be flown (at this stage), but think the Lodi 16 and TG examples are what Id rate good/close to slotperfect flocks. There is no confussion over who is flying where. You see the flock. All the lines are well defined. No people to far back/sideways to mess with the symetry.. But all of this is still just an eyeballed 'was the formation complete/flown or not' way of deciding. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Reminded me of this one... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

I think we're all pussies, and we just need to learn to fly this sucker docked JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Dude...you guys CLEARLY never met BASSIE yet.. Think this picture, but ad exposed CREW toggles, lots of canopy fabric and a lot of spots you'd want to cover in Ductape JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Its actually 2nd-go First flights And definately a good one. Getting a cheap classic II to get some flying experience , before moving on to bigger suits. And lateron have a nice suit to use/abuse for friends who can fly but dont have the dough to buy their own suit yet... Did hear the previous owner was a bit of a gay pony-lover..check the suit for white crispy stains.. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Well sayd... Cheers from "The Lone Dutchman...." who watched this all from his office-seat, and via WiFi on his laptop while doing small jumps from a C206.. OFFICIALY* amazed, jealous and applauding everyone involved *recognized by the FlyLikeBrick foundation of everlasting smile JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

ps Where can I change my avatar picture here on dz.com's forums?? I'm a pretty computer savvy guy, but I can't find this option anywhere in my 'Edit Profile' page, nor anywhere else really. Click> My profile> Your avatar pic is on the top left. Under the picture Click> Edit Picture I envied your exploits dude...good to have you back behind a PC (oh..scuzzz me..MAC) where you're not making me so damn jealous every second of my working day JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

If I can get a good res. picture, information on the lens used, and information about every flyers width (hand to hand while spreading wings), I can do a 3D overlay, use correctly sized 3D models of each person, overlayed on the picture, and then correct for size differences by moving them up or down the Z-axis (will need some side-ref to determine which way each flyer went) and then get a rough 3D model of the flock, which should be accurate in terms of position down to +- 30 cm for each flyer. Having multiple pics with the exact time-stamp from different angles will only increase accuracy of the 3D model. The second step would be everybody donating me some cash to be able to pay my rent, as this would probably cost me a week to do and..ehm...but...errrr......WHYYYYYYYYY!? If I may quote some simple facts: cool - This is the most awesome bigway ever flown in wingsuits! - This is the biggest properly organised dive ever done in wingsuits! - The accuracy and skill with which everybody has flown here are past! anything ever done in organised bigways in wingsuits! - The amount of planning and execution if the best of its kind ever attempted! - Its the biggest international effort in wingsuits ever! - Everyone who was there wishes he was still there, everyone who wasnt, wished he had gone. - The results passed everyone expectations by far! - feel free to ad... you wont like this one - EACH record ever done in a wingsuit (besides Adrian Nicholas' distance/time one) has been an UNOFFICIAL one. DEAL WITH IT! Just say this out loud. WITH 71 PEOPLE WE FLEW THE BIGGEST, MOST BAD-ASS, WELL ORGANISED AND CLOSE TO PERFECT WINGSUIT FLOCK EVER! Does that line REAAALLY need to have that one more word named 'official' in there? Shame..as it would be the only word thats not true.. - Just because there is no official record, doesnt mean this un-official one automaticly is an official one. EVERY record is an UNOFFICIAL one. Who cares? The event is already past awesome. WHY would you argue on such a stupid little word. what happened - Due to the organisers wish to ad the word OFFICIAL to the roster..a whole sub-discussion on validation started. Which is a shame. As this event didnt need that. - That sparked a claim for a certain accuracy, which didnt prove feasable..who cares. - a lot of things (the results of this one, and the non-emotional look at what rates a formation 'official') got mixed up, and thrown into this mudslinging ego-bruising yes/no game. That was never what this was about. Forget the word official and rating claims, and be happy with what you got (again, read my 'cool' points) - For all we know we'll never have an 'official' validation. And though fun to think off one (even if its for our own 'internal' use only), keep that whole discussion away from this thread. It wasnt official, never will be. But it IS all of the things quoted above. Keep this baby as it is...cheer..kiss..hug..hang the picture on your wall, and remember this for the awesome flying and results. And dont go into the (by now) personal attacks on people and their reasons to cheer on your results, but have sceptisism on the validation/official part. Its such anger on such a small word which just ISNT PART of this whole event. Some of the critisism (be it constructive or negative) beforehand stems from some scary/negative experiences a lot of people have had on previous bigways. Though some words may have been harsh, ignore that and try and focus on why those words where sayd. Because they cared and worried about safety etc. And this event gladly showed a lot those worries about planning, breakoff, safety where not valid. Be proud of what you did, but also be a FRIEND and thank that person for having the guts to (even if you didnt like the way he or she did it) tell you what worried him. And dont be like a sour ex. who keeps bitching about things sayd in the past. Its the pictures, experience and great step forward in organised wingsuit formations that counts. Again..this is an awesome 71 way flock! If people can put the word 'official' to rest, and just focus on being happy with this one, and look ahead to the next cool event and how to improve in terms of flying/planning and formation size. Then we can have a whole seperate discussion on how we may come up with some way of validating a formation. But for this one...skip it... As one awesome wingsuit team from the Lowlands always says.. Dont forget to smile.. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Still fun to be looking at the 71 way and talking about its accuracy/validity as a record with the judging being down to mere meters, where just a month ago, the base 35 way would have already been the most amazing thing ever.. Again..big up! JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Thats talking about the term 'official' (which is registration by something like FAI)...which is not that important at this point in time yet.... Defining exactly what this current record formation is (according to which rules you judge/validate) is important for future attempts. If I flew a 72 way, with everybody 20 meters away from someone, no clear formation, a mess in the sky, but everybody still within that 20 meter proximity...would that be the new record? Thats why we do need to come up with a set of judging standards by which we will validate this and/or future attemps. And in the long run, come up with a working set of rules we will be able to use for some form of official validation. I dont think anyone is disputing this biggest formation ever..and to do so would be wrong/sad/useless...everybody in this formation knows what it is and was.. Its just now up to us (all) to find a way to judge what was done, and see if we can come up with correct and usuable criterea for future use when it comes to validating/approving a new/next record.. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Also did something similar to explain what I ment... Basically, place an X x X sized box over each flyer (IMPORTANT: just a box in this example). Then look for overlap between every flyer around him. If every flyer has overlap..means they're all close enough. Then add lines through the formation, and see if every box stays within the lines set for symetry across each row.. *edit* this time with attachment JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Small addition, only just read your post Andrea...coupled to symmetry, I think we're both thinking the same thing... Expecting something to line up on a grid is already close to impossible on the ground. Small errors in placement ad up as you get further and further away from the base and makes it hard to impossible to adhere perfectly to the grid. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Though important, I think the 'we got it' and 'is this a valid/judgeable record' are two seperate discussions. I dont think there is anyone here who is going to not call this the biggest formation ever flown up to this point if one or two people are slighly out of line/not completely symetrical in their slot/placemtent within the formation. I also believe the grid-based method of judging, though awesome, wont work due to small differences (say every line flying their slot 30 cm too tight) will already mean the whole back end of the formation is already a meter or more out of their box. The in-evitable 'how about doing it this way...' I think Id use the 3x3 meter box method. But place the box over every single flyer, seperate, and then watch the box patern and check if it has a 100% overlap. No holes (meaning someone is not within the required proximity). And on top of that one, just look for symetry. Draw lines over each row (side to side, front to back) and make sure everybody has his box (sounds dirty) on that axis/line in both directions. The fact that Costyn (outside of one SMS) has not been anywhere near a computer to post here or send emails for a week, means he had the best time in his life. ever. He didnt even manage that on his wedding-trip last month. That single fact is enough to tell me I missed the most awesome thing ever JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Sounds like an amazing thing for your neck also. No longer 2,5 kilo bricks on your neck. Eager to hear (and see) more on this one! JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

mike: *snif* girl: Aahh...Are all the bad people at dz.com teasing you mikey...? JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

So..what date should I reserve in my agenda for the 100 way I figured it would be a 50 something way, but feared 71 was just a few flyers too big, and would be incredibly hard to get perfect.. Incredibly glad to see me proven wrong here, and kuddos to everyone (organisers and flyers) who managed to pull this one off! Now upload those pictures already! JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Cant wait to see pix and video guys! Its been amazing(ly frustrating) watching all the updates! Hope we see this one in the media everywhere. Put a press package online (names, photos/video) and lets start submitting that puppy to all the news outlets worldwide!! Congrats! JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Would it be safe to say the Ghost is a big surface flocking platform suitable for most jumpers. Where-as the Stealth is the maximum surface area suit for more experienced flyers who are really into prolonged freefall times (or people on the real heavy side looking to slow their fall enough to flock with ease). JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?