FallingOsh

Does that mean you understand hobos or Glenn Beck? Wendy P. No the ability to spot nutjobs and conspiracy theorists If one is a nutjob conspiracy theorist then what is the other? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

So the point you're making is that it should be completely legal or the laws should be enforced. Having laws with no enforcement is pointless. If that was your point then I agree. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Apparently you don't know the difference between a trend and an outlying data point. I suggest you learn some science BEFORE criticizing scientists. Science = 'fudging the data until it matches the hypothesis', now? My, how times have changed. +1 -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Yeah, that's a typical Republican excuse when they have nothing else to argue. But rest in peace, you're not the first. You and I had nearly two pages of honest discussion and then you admit part of the reason you'd like a $1T bill passed is to spite the other side. How very noble and reasonable that is. Fuck it though, it won't be us footing the bill, right? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

I was ready to post a serious response and then I got to this. Congratulations on losing all credibility with one sentence. Quite a feat. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Why do you have a problem with that and what do you suggest to change it? Government caps on profits? The 51B you're talking about; that's the entire health insurance industry, right? It's not like one company is making that per year. Bringing their profit margin to 0 wouldn't have a negative impact on the company? I just can't believe someone would propose forcing a private company to 0 profit margin. Profit Margin A ratio of profitability calculated as gross earnings divided by revenues (or, said another way, gross profits divided by sales). It measures how much out of every dollar of sales a company actually keeps in earnings. Profit margin is very useful when comparing companies in similar industries. A higher profit margin indicates a more profitable company that has better control over its costs compared to the competitors in the industry. Profit margin is displayed as a percentage a 20% profit margin, for example, which means that the company has a net income of $0.20 for each dollar of sales. They still have a product. They still have expenses. 3.4% isn't exactly taking as much as you can. That point is proven by the fact they're number 87 on the list of industries. Agreed. They could have a 5 or 10% if they wanted to. You used them as an example of a company that runs extremely well. They'd be out of business without government bailouts. So the answer is to have the government hand out cash to every company with a negative balance?? Agreed. They shouldn't have gotten any government bailout. Yep. The HC is projected to cost $1T over the next ten years. How is that planning for the future? A magical bill that provided insurance for the uninsured at no cost would be great. They're still not going to be paying anything. The cost will still have to go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear with a new bill. I'm not against selling plans over state lines. I'm not against HC reform. I am against the government getting involved in the industry. I've read as much of it as the people voting on it. Yes, I want to delay it until it's right and people that are voting read the damn thing. And you just want it pushed through by the end of the year... just because? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Why would that look attractive? You want to put everyone in the industry out of work? Not to mention tie all of that paperwork up in politics? No, that does not look attractive. You're now claiming that the insurance industry doesn't have a profit margin? I never said they were poor. I said the bitching about evil, money hungry insurance companies was bullshit. Sure they make quite a bit of money. No, they aren't running a 50% profit margin just becaues they can push people into a corner. Seriously? You do realize they have serious deficit and are considering cutting delivery days, right? They're also a frequent requester of government bailouts. Companies fail. The USPS is in the same boat as some of those companies, but will continue to receive government funds. I guess if your idea of working very well is running large deficits and getting bailed out, then yes the USPS is a great example. My IRA and 401k are doing quite well. I'll try to do that later. Busy now. There are plenty of articles that topic. BTW, i didnt say all cosumers will have increases. It's says most will stay the same or increase. Like what? You know what your doctor makes? Did you consider that maybe your increase in premiums went to something other than your doctor's paycheck? But you're still concerned about increase. Lol. Um, yes. Generally the ramifications of a bill should be considered before they're made law. I realize that is a foreign concept for the left, but it is advised. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

And that's the overarching issue right there. Define what's right. I bet it's pretty different from what I think is right. What I think is right is definitely different than what others on here consider right. The only person who will do your definition of what's right is you. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

The dollar amount that their profit margin equals? How do you compare that to other companies? Of course their actualy dollar amount is going to be higher than some smaller industries. It could also be lower. Profit margin is way to see that they are not out to just blindly take everyone's money. Operating at a low profit margin, even if the dollar amount is high, shows that a company is running nearly equal income and expenses. In this case it shows me that all of these claims about the evil, price gouging insurance companies is just rhetoric. Well, no. That's not profit margin. If your personal business's profit pargin was 45% then yes, I would say you have no right to critisize the health insurance industry for being too money hungry. Haha. Ok, go explain to a company how profit margin is an 'abstract percentage.' Tort reform gets at one of the issues causing a rise in healthcare costs. It includes law suit standards and limitations, non-payment regulations, etc. Would if fix people walking into the ER, maybe not. My point is that we need to fix the problem, not subsidize it. And history shows that subsidizing or starting a government option increases the cost to the point of bankruptcy; ie. Hawaii Which effects would you like me to look at? The CBO said costs likely to stay the same or increase. That assessment is independant of premiums doubling over the last ten years. Again, subsidizing or raising taxes will not change the fact they doubled and does nothing to address the issue of why they doubled. Don't know. The bill isn't released yet. All I can go by is what the official estimates are and that was stay the same or increase. I don't know how much that means, but it answers your original question of which situation costs less. It still wouldn't address the real issues. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Nice, maybe. Still irrelevant. Why does it matter what dollar amount they're taking home? If their profit margin was in the 50's then there would be some merit to screaming about the evil insurance industry price gouging. I'm pretty sure somewhere in this thread I've said I favor some kind of healthcare reform... mostly in tort reform and that sort of approach. Something that will fix the system versus more taxes and subsidies. I don't have the time, data, or calculator to do that myself. The CBO has some words, though. From what I've recently read, my costs would either remain the same or increase under the Senate bill. Tax increases would compound the issue. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Good. So we can agree that insurance companies aren't just soaking up the billions as part of a giant corporate conspiracy. They have operating costs and yes, they will turn a profit. 3.4% is nothing to call evil. "By the people, of the people, for the people" means tax the shit out of some to give away to others? I always thought it meant something more like everyone pitch in, work hard, get out of life what you put in. Ok. Let me get this straight. You're pissed off because corporations receive money from the government.... and you advocate a government run healthcare plan? Who do you think all those subsidies will go to? Doctors, businesses, and corporations. You bitch and bitch and bitch about corporate welfare and then advocate the government paying out more money to businesses and corporations. Name one industry that operates however they want. If a private company chooses to pay it's employees 100's of millions of dollars (approved by the board and the shareholders) then yes... i would call that part of operating in a free country. I suppose you'd rather place government mandated caps on private industry employees and then whine when those businesses move overseas. I don't picture it that way. It is that way. Healthcare is not free. Drugs don't develope themselves. Technological advances don't appear in the bottom of a cereal box. Hospitals cost money to run, doctors need paychecks, and medical advances require funding for research. Try funding a hospital on hopes, dreams, and lollipops for a week. HC is a necessity. I've never contended that. That's why I've always had insurance, my family has always had insurance, and my parents have always had insurance. It's a necessity that we're dedicated to provide which does in fact (gasp) require money which may in fact (gasp) require insurance to be a funding priority. That's where you and the rest of the gimme gimme's are really a mess. You think every necessity should be provided for you. A product of service isn't either a necessity or a business. It can be both and very often is. Food is a necessity. The food industry is a business. You going to start whining that you have to pay for groceries? Here we go with the temper tantrum. You're claiming 98% of the world has government provided healthcare? You want to talk about Presidents and debt? But... but.. but... Obama's is different. Ousted conservatives? Time to back peddle. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

AND THEN... 'Stop talking about race, stop talking about race, stop talking about race.... people voted for him because he's black? ... Oh, well voting based on race is common...' -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It's about as basic as it gets. It directly affect about 50% of the population. How so? People still use heroin. Should we legalize that too? How about assault? People still do that. "It still happens" is not even close to a reasonable argument for legalizing abortion. It's not a reasonable argument for legalizing anything. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

YGBFSM. Economic discrimination? You mean things should be given away for free. of healthcare, for starters. Why don't the people who are economically discriminated against get an economically un-discriminating occupation. The corrupt ones, yes. You do realize that even the non-corrupt companies aren't free, right? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Obama's 2012 campaign slogan. That money is gone. It has no bearing on how to pay for HC reform. That's fine. Go back in time and take all the money spent. Then we can pay for HC reform. Irrational isn't it? So are you advocating that everyone who uses the system must pay into it? Are you saying that a fair tax is the right way to go or that those who don't pay any federal taxes shouldn't get HC? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

This kind of crap (not necessarily directed at you) is what really aggrivates me when it comes to HC discussion. You're pro-life = you should support national healthcare. You're anti gov. healthcare = you think babies should be aborted. They're rediculous leaps to try and guilt people into agreeing with you're beliefs. Except it doesn't start in the discussions; it starts when people try to put "moral" restrictions on basic healthcare issues. Abortion is not a basic healthcare issue. It's a very complicated one with people who feel very strongly about both sides with several shades of grey in the middle. I would consider basic heathcare considerations to be life, limb, or eyesight; emergency medical care, life saving prescription drugs, etc. IMO, if you consider abortion a basic healthcare issue then your frame of reference is considerably scewed from the beginning. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

+1 -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Did you report it? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

This kind of crap (not necessarily directed at you) is what really aggrivates me when it comes to HC discussion. You're pro-life = you should support national healthcare. You're anti gov. healthcare = you think babies should be aborted. They're rediculous leaps to try and guilt people into agreeing with you're beliefs. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Sounds like a shady way for a greedy business to deny it's employees coverage. The business should be fined for each person who works there that isn't receiving healthcare. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

It is equally clear that a lot of us actually do realize that it costs money and we are willing to pay for it for everyone... Everyone pays, everyone gets. just like the military, roads, schools, medicare, whatever. here we go again..... Yep, here we go again with that same crap about everyone paying.... EVERYONE DOESN'T PAY Why is that so hard to understand? Not everyone pays for military. Not everyone pays for roads, or schools, or medicare. Not everyone (not even close to everyone) will pay for healthcare reform. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

According to Morningstar, the profit margin for insurance companies over the past year was 3.4%. That's so high that they ranked 87th out of 215 industries. Of course salaries are part of the subtraction when calculating profit margin so companies can still pay execs a shit load (read; free country). It also includes paychecks to all employees, taxes, expenses, etc. All I'm saying is that listing a number (from a web adress that contains the phrase making-too-much-money) out of context isn't a valid comparison to the rest of the corporate world. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Could you maybe be any less specific? Probably. Your point is wrong. The idea of evolution existed before Darwin published 'Origin', his work was the first step in explaining how evolution worked. Actually that still makes the point I was getting at. Darwin didn't come up with the theory of evolution. The one's that you're currently jabbering about. The science regarding origin? More than some. Less than others. I didn't get my doctorate in the subject if that's what you're getting at. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

No, it was oversimplified into one sentence. if you were so eager to take a jab then you could've done without the first question and gone right for it. Which one? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.

Like what? There was recently a new find that was supposed to change everything. How often has it changed? Darwin didn't propose evolution. His work was on natural selection. Evolution was derived and inferred from his work. Semantics, yes, but I'm just making a point. Maybe. But it still isn't proven and that's my point. Science will always "prove" more than faith. That's why it's faith. My issue with "believing" in science is that it's always changing. What was true yesterday isn't true today and will be different again tomorrow. Some people like that or call it progress. Personally, I think 'believing' in something that is always changing is less concrete than believing in faith. I've had this conversation on here before and know where people stand. I also know what they think about me thinking that. That would pretty much do away with faith, wouldn't it? I'll give you that. That wasn't my point. I know you weren't claiming it as your own. My question was just how much studying of the faith (or the science of origin) have you done. I haven't done as much as I should, but I haven't seen any science remotely close to proving away God. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life.