BIGUN

God, I am so tired of hearing that empty rhetoric. The Dingo's got my baby, The Dingo's got my baby!! Nobody's going to take away your damn guns. I've got and had more than the average SOB over the past 30 years and no "Black Booted thug" has come knocking on my door saying, "ve haff come to take ze veapons." The legal owner's get to keep their guns and the criminals who cannot provide title, lose theirs. Over time, criminals lose their arsenal and there are more legal owners than criminals carrying guns. Did you know that in the US, there are some 37,500 gun purchases of which ~17,000 of those are handguns EVERY DAY. Did you also know that 30% of those initial purchases are re-sold using the (oops, some folks don't like the word, "loophole") Let's call it the secondary market so as not to offend anyone. Anyway, 30% of those weapons are sold in the secondary market within the first year. No trail. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

At NO time have I said the government had to approve the sale... but, there are restrictions. Can an FFL dealer sell a gun to a felon? Can they sell one to someone who has a history of mental disease? etc., etc. That is NOT what I'm proposing. But don't you have to take ownership of that car and get it tagged in your name at a tag agency? What I am proposing; is that if you sell a gun, you download an "Ownership Transfer Form" and have the new owner take formal legal ownership of the weapon. Just like a car... That's it. Familiar with it, But, did go back and revisit it - pertains to Class II weapons... I'll share an interesting ditty with you on my revisit.. Not sure why you referred me to this as it has both good and bad things in it. But, if it has to do with Class III weapons (machine guns/silencers), that doesn't preclude you from buying one, it just means you have to fill out the the Form 4. It has to be filled out in duplicate by your Class 3 dealer, showing the current owner of the weapon and address, your name and address, description of the weapon and serial number, etc.. You're given the forms, along with a set of fingerprint cards and pay the fee. What's the big deal? You're a law-abiding citizen, right? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

huh? Is this an oxymoron test? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

OK, now we're just getting silly. Equating a Mooney with an assault weapon. I am not proposing a ban on guns, nor am I even proposing a ban on which types of weapons one can buy and finally, I am opposed to banning the number of rounds a magazine can hold. And, I am one of the most arduous defenders of the 2nd amendment. Here's what I AM saying, I would not want to see an outright ban on handguns. But unregistered guns begin with someone legally purchasing it. After that initial legal purchase, it's either stolen or sold to someone; call it private individual to private individual (P2P); which while legal, is still a legal loophole. It is a black market and eventually that weapon gets into the wrong hands. Getting guns out of the wrong hands requires responsibility. All I'm saying is (and I don't understand why it is being met with such resistance) is; If one is the first purchaser of a weapon, that information should be recorded in a national database registry, and each time that weapon changes ownership, there should be an "Ownership Transfer" document from cradle to grave. If I sell you a Glock, I would actually welcome the opportunity to formally transfer ownership and know that gun is no longer associated with me and there is a formal record of the transfer. If you're wanting to use airplane analogies or car analogies, I'll give you one.. If you sell a car and do not formally transfer title and that car is in an accident resulting in the death of someone and the driver runs off; you are the one investigated first as the legal owner of the vehicle. I know this because one of my best friends, fellow skydiver and DZ pilot's wife was recently killed by someone in a hit and run. A couple of witnesses got a partial plate, but an exact description of the car. It was traced back to the owner who "said" he'd sold it... no bill of sale, no title transfer, nothing. He was arrested and folded telling that his cousin (an illegal alien was using the car). The point of this is, we do a formal legal transference of homes, cars, motorcycles, airplanes, etc., all of which goes into a national database, but no one is denied the right of ownership as long as they are qualified to have ownership. If the police find a weapon on the street that has no title, then it gets confiscated and over time, the number of "black market" weapons dwindles and MOST of us that are law-abiding citizens will have guns and the criminals armory will dwindle. Would some still break into homes to steal guns... yes, but there are two scenarios now, One is; that law-abiding citizen has a weapon to defend themselves against intrusion with a legally owned registered weapon and if stolen can make a police report. And, just as with a car being stolen; the police receive a BOLO for that stolen weapon which increases the charges against the criminal.* Do you know how many people report stolen guns from their homes and when asked if they have the serial number - have no clue? If my truck is stolen, I'm not sure I can tell you my tag number, much less the VIN, but the police can pull my name up on the computer and fetch it in about 30 seconds. Does the government tell you - you can't own a Corvette or a One ton Dually.... no, they only ask that you register it and take ownership for it and that information goes into a database and if your car is stolen, when found can be returned to its rightful owner and the thief is prosecuted... and that's only a privilege, not a constitutional right. With a P2P purchase - right now, I can "sell" you a gun and not even have to do a bill of sale. Then, you sell, to "X," who sells to "Y," who sells to "Z," who commits a murder. The police have to start with the manufacturer who goes to the wholesaler, who goes to the dealer, who goes thru his/her yellow sheets and finds owner number one. Owner number one says, "I sold it." To who?, Don't remember a name, I sold it to a person at the gun show... trail is dead and the case takes time, can turn cold and that victim's family only knows that their family member was killed with a gun in which the murderer can't be found. Instead of the scenario of that gun is owned by Person Z and we have him/her in custody. All bans, calibers, types of weapons aside, Are you seriously going to tell me that you would have a problem with having to register a gun or legally transfer ownership to maintain a chain of ownership just as you have to with your vehicle would impinge on your rights to own any weapon or caliber under the constitution? Do you guys that are digging in your heels for the right to ownership feel that its some government plot to rid you of the second amendment and your right to own guns if we formalize legal transfer? Cause if you do... you're actually making it harder on yourselves and partly responsible for all these errant laws that mean squat and force control, rather than allowing for responsibility. Every time someone is murdered with a weapon used that cannot be traced to the offender, that family just became a proponent of gun control and endorse the stupid ass laws and new laws that aren't doing shit and only pressing you guys further into your position. Let's become champions of gun responsibility by recommending a chain of ownership from cradle to grave. *EDIT: Let's flip this around. You purchased a gun in a P2P transaction at a gun show. A year later, someone breaks into your house and comes at you with a gun and you kill them. The police confiscate the gun as part of the investigation and come back to you a week later and say, "Mr. Smith, our ballistics check shows this gun was used in a homicide a year ago, can you explain how long you had this gun?" "I bought it at a gun show." "From who?" "I don't know.. Guess who's going downtown and is now a "person of interest?" Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Mike, If you'll go back and re-read MY threads, I never said anything about Government Approval, only registration. Actually, Bill was pre-approved by the government before the purchase up to and including a physical in which the results were reported to the FAA if anything was outta whack (Blood Pressure Meds, etc.) not to mention licensure. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I'm a little confused, Mike. Are you saying guns sold aren't used in public? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I agree with each of your items 100%. I am a strong proponent of #1 and think Judges should have a little matrix to go by: Felony: Five years - no parole. Felony with a gun: 10 years added to the five years - no parole. Felony with a gun where shots were fired: Another five years - 20 total - no parole. But, you didn't address the private individual to private individual sales. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Mike, Is there any loss of harness structural integrity by having both hip and chest rings? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

And, so what is your suggestion or solution... status quo? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I was in a CASA that ingested a FUCKING MANUAL in the right engine at WFFC. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

John, The goal is this... Now its going to take some time; but there needs to be a transference of ownership in which there are less multiple offense criminals that have guns than those who are law -biding citizens of the community. The other goal would be to shift the balance of gun hatred to one of gun respect. Over time (perhaps 10 years), weapons the police pull off the street that are not part of the national registry get tossed in the smelter. Eventually only law-abiding citizens will have the guns and the criminals will not. Crimes involving guns will be solved faster, because eventually, every gun will have a chain of title of ownership. Then, not every gun owner will will be perceived as the bad guy. Law-abiding citizens with guns. Those who do not meet the threshold of "law-abiding" do not own guns. Now, before we get into the NRA rhetoric (of which I am surrounded both professionally, personally and familial)... I've been hearing the same empty rhetoric for the past 30 years (which they have to do to keep fear in gun owners or they'd be out of business just as Jesse Jackson cannot say; "Now, that we have a Black President my work on prejudice is done"). The government wants to take our guns!!! They want us to have a national registry so when they want; they can come to our homes and take them if we don't surrender them. The Dingos got my baby. And in the same time frame; has gun ownership among criminals gone up or down? John, here's the deal... this is neither a left or right issue.. it's a "legal" and "a gun in the hands of criminal's" issue. Little Oklahoma wisdom for ya.. If you always do; what you've always done. You'll always get; what you've always had. -Unknown How do we make gun ownership not only a right, but a responsibility? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Technically, that is correct. From the "legal" perspective. The issue is abuse of that legality. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Oh, I believe it. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Hey, I just choose to keep it manicured in the new reverse Mohawk style. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

You're a friggin Marine. You all have the same haircut!! Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

A few skydivers decided to go to a boogie. Now, nobody wanted to sleep in the same tent with Turtlespeed - he’s got a well known reputation for snoring and since it wasn’t fair to make one of them stay with him the whole time - so they voted to take turns. Billy Vance is the first skydiver to bunk with Turtlespeed comes to manifest the next morning with his hair a mess and his eyes all bloodshot, looking like he didn't get any sleep. They said, “Man, what happened to you?” He said, “Turtlespeed snores so loudly, I just sat up all night, couldn’t get any sleep - and I'm fookin deaf!” The following night it was CSpenceFly's turn. In the morning, same thing - hair all messed up, eyes blood-shot, etc. The people at manifest said, “Man, what happened to you? You look awful!” He said, “Man, that Turtlespeed! Shakes the roof he’s so loud. He kept me up all night.” The third night was AggieDave's turn. Now, AggieDave is built like a big burly ex-football player. Said he wasn’t gonna put up with any snoring… “We’ll see!” said the other skydivers. The next morning, AggieDave came to manifest bright eyed and bushy tailed. “Good morning, wonderful day outside isn’t it?” he said. They couldn’t believe it! They said, “Man, what happened?” AggieDave said, “Well, we got ready for bed. I went over and tucked Turtlespeed into his sleeping bag, then kissed him good night. Didn't snore a bit. He just sat up all night. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

New Gear Advice Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Asked and answered. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

It has to do with the concentration of "private individual" to "private individual" sales using the loophole at gun shows. There are currently over 4,000 gun shows in the US; each with hundreds of sellers and thousands of attendees. You're an engineer; do the math. But, you do have a point.. Hence, the "my opinion on registering all gun sales" part, whether it be FFL's to private individuals or individual to individual. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

The list of knowledge or the list of people? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

You and Quade are both right. First, anyone registered as an FFL dealer selling a gun at a gun show must follow the same rules as the storefront dealer across the street. A valid FFL must be held by anyone selling, manufacturing, or importing guns, ammunition, and certain gun parts (Better known as "In the business of...") Firearm-related laws are listed in Title 18, Chapter 44, US Code and enforced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. So, those who posses an FFL at a gun show, must still follow the rules on background checks, etc. And, I can assure that agents of ATF are at every show to ensure State and Federal regulations are being followed. In fact, you can probably Google the number of ATF seizures/arrests at gun shows for those who do not). Now, let's look at "The Loophole:" 1. People who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale. 2. A gun collector dies and his widow wants to sell the guns, she does not need a federal firearms license because she is just selling off inherited property and is not "engaged in the business." It is lawful for her to rent a table at a gun show and sell the entire collection. 3. Technically, a non-FFL holder "private individual" can go to a gun show, purchase a weapon from an FFL, do the paperwork, get the background check done, get handed the gun and receipt and IMMEDIATELY turn around and re-sell the gun to another private individual. One can literally walk out into the parking lot and sell the gun they just purchased. In other words; * So, the issue becomes, how many of the "private individuals" in all three examples of "The Loophole." are going to take the time to ask a third-party to see there driver's license (basically an "arm's length transaction") or for that matter; one who has the intent of making some money by using the loophole. In my opinion, all guns should be registered to the owner. And, if the owner "private individual" wished to re-sell that weapon, should be required to go to www.ATF.gov, or through an FFL "in-the-business" to do the paperwork and background check (for a small fee) to maintain a chain of title on the weapon. And, yes, mine are all registered. But, all that means is the background check was done and then the yellow sheet is left with FFL Dealer as to make, model, etc. I think the yellow sheets should be held in a computerized national ATF repository instead of just with the FFL Holder. Disclaimer: Things may have changed over the past few years regarding "The Loophole," but I really don't stay up on it, but from the looks of the source cited which I just pulled tonight, it would appear the loophole still exists. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Well, on the flip side, I can't say that I haven't experienced that segment of employees also. You are an asshole. But, you're our asshole and they can't talk about you like that. Point'em out!! Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I agree that flaring is different and in some cases very different. I may have phrased it poorly, but the intent was to communicate... setting up for the landing. Glide slope, head and eye placement, etc. Everything before that last inch. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.