BIGUN

I fly A LOT. (it ain't as adventurous and fun as people think ) Automatic bump to first class type of a lot. I've seen where people have had to be cut off by the flight attendant and they'll get a little belligerent till the nice lady or gentleman flight attendant tells them, "Sir, if you do not quiet down, we'll have Federal Marshals waiting to arrest you when we land." [Ever notice its always the guys?] Anyway, I think this case was taken just for the sake of challenge of jurisdiction and some sport. I think he'll prolly get more of smackdown than the airlines and learn the meaning of personal responsibility in the counterrsuit. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Thanks for the info, Rob. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Do TELL! OK. Peach schnapps and Baileys served up ice cold. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Yeah, I acknowledged in that deleted post that either a) the word didn't get all the way downstream, or b) there were some abuses. In some cases, officers were reprimanded and in her case, last I heard... he no longer policeman. Personally, I blame the leadership for that nonsense also. No different than I blame the senior NCO's for Abu Ghraib. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

BTW... if you haven't put pen to paper to your legislators as of late,,, you may want to. H.R. 96: Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2007 Cause if not now; sooner or later, they're gonna chip away at the peanut bowl, one peanut at a time. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

This doesn't have to be a "You go first. No you," Scenario It could be a single bipartisan bill introduced at the same time. P.S. I may have punched out the thread regarding the N.O. confiscations before you had a chance to read. The directive was anyone on the streets _who did not have ID of any kind_ and had weapons; those weapons were to be confiscated. If they could not prove who they were, the guns were taken to a repository. They were told the process to reclaim their weapons. Of the thousands of weapons I saw, 458 were taken to the repository. No records were used to kick in doors and target weapons for confiscation. If you were on the street and... When you get home, we'll talk.. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

OK... Technically true, but most of the dealers I know and back when I was one, referred to certain types of weapons as class III... I used common vernacular, rather than use the Queen's English, so I'll let someone else explain that common vernacular is appropriate... You are very mistaken. PM Sent Please read the whole story regarding US v. Miller. How did it start? Why did it end that way. Finally, please read the opinions of the current SCOTUS on US v. Miller and its possible fututre should it come to light again. It would not pass and many states will now allow one to own an SBS if they are in an "NFA State." Sure it is. If a brand spanky new gun is sold by the Licensee to the Tranferee (Party A) and transferee does a private sale to Party B, who sells P2P to Party C, who sells P2P to Party D and gets diluted until it gets to Party K and Party K goes to a gun show. While at the gun show, Party K starts talking to an FFL Dealer and decides to exchange the weapon and some cash for a new gun. The FFL has to enter the gun back into his/her inventory and when Party K's gun is resold by the FFL; that FFL has to have the new owner fill out a new 4473 and the chain of title for that weapon now starts over. Exactly. It just verifies that person has no, X, Y. or Z that prohibits ownership etc. Well, except in the case of Mr. Cho at Virginia Tech... but that's a different thread. EXACTLY!!! Whew... my work here is done. I know very well how the process works. Read my PM. You keep proving that you're only willing to sling NRA rhetoric which only further polarizes the entire issue; rather than bringing a divided house to the table so true solutions can be discussed and consensus achieved. Exactly!!! Whew, My work here is done. And, if this is going to convert into a "What Obama says," thread... http://obama.3cdn.net/7d467fe75a3029d7df_hum6injwr.pdf So, here's the ORIGINAL point of this thread... http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/federal/gun_show.shtml Now instead of arguing, what are you willing to bring to the table as a solution? I've offered mine. All gun ownership is a constitutional right. With those rights comes responsibility. We give you a National Gun Registry for the transference of all weapons and ownership is maintained. Add a $15.00 tax to all/any type gun to maintain this registry. And, you repeal all stupid ass gun/ammo laws and inordinate taxes. What do you bring to the table, Ron? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Copilots window was open. Manual leaves. Hits engine POW Engine make smoke Pilot turns plane back to land Land safely. Everyone exits Not sure of the whole story since another skydiver was on the plane who had been in a pretty bad crash the year before needed a break and some buttery nipples, so we took the rest of the day off. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

It can get pretty ugly. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

True. Some gun shows prohibit individual sales.. well, let me re-phrase that.. some shows require all weapon transfers be done thru an FFL (for which the FFL charges like $15.00 because the weapon is technically being re-entered into the system thru his/her license). Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

LOL, Mike. I think it was pretty obvious that Obama's legislative record was pretty thin about anything. The link was not meant to cast any support for Obama, but to demonstrate the NRA's tactics of fear-mongering. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

An FFL seller must have the transferee fill out a Form 4473 and run a background check before concluding the sale. A non-FFL seller (private individual) must negotiate a price, receive the cash and hand over the weapon to the buyer (no Form 4473 or background check required). Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

This is my last and hopefully succinct summation post on this matter (since I was partially responsible for taking the thread 123 degrees off course, I deleted the other posts that were not "loophole" related). If one buys a Class I weapon from an Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) dealer; the initial purchase has to be done using an ATF Form 4473. It does not matter if that purchase is made at a gun show or in a store front across the street while the gun show is going on. The same rules apply and only the initial purchase need be recorded unless the weapon is traded back in with the same or another FFL in which the gun re-enters the system and if again sold by the FFL must be resold using the Form 4473. If that Class I weapon is sold from one private individual to another in a private transaction, no form need be filled out or background check performed, That class I weapon can then be "sold' or "gifted" from one to another or another and so on until it is lost or diluted so far downstream in a secondary market that ownership is no longer known. Some call this a legal "loophole." There are some 37,500 weapons (of which ~17,000 are handguns) Class I sold every day in the US. This makes for a total of ~1,368,500 Class I weapons sold in the US every year. Of that ~1,368,500 Class I weapons sold every year in the US, approximately thirty percent (30%) are resold in the secondary market. This means approximately 410,550 Class I weapons are resold in that secondary secondary market each year and no paperwork need be done. For Class II and Class III weapons, an ATF Form 4473 and ATF Form 4 needs to be filled out for each sale and each subsequent purchaser (including individual to individual to individual) sale. This tracks that weapon from cradle to grave for each purchaser; not unlike that of a car registration. Most Transferee's of Class II and III weapons do not grumble about the Form 4 paperwork that traces ownership from cradle to grave as they do the associated tax with the Form 4. My only point has been that I; as a law-abiding citizen have no issue with registering all my Class I weapons and do not "fear" the government confiscating my weapons as ownership is protected more under the 2nd Amendment right; than is my privilege to have ownership of a vehicle which also to must have registration of ownership from cradle to grave. At issue is the polarization of Class I ownership perpetuated by the NRA's methodology and whose only product to generate revenue is to maintain and increase membership by selling disinformation and causing fear which stimulates demand and increases gun prices. Of the revenues generated, more than 50% of that revenue goes into fund-raising activities to maintain the salaries of its 75 person Board of Directors and CEO's salary of ~$1,000,000 per annum, and its new headquarters which cost $15,000,000 dollars. The result of these fear tactics; the latest shown by FactCheck.org (a nonpartisan, nonprofit "consumer advocate" for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics) being... http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html which only stimulates more errant stupid ass laws (like the AWB which "kinda" shoots the same caliber round as a deer hunting rifle). Their mission statement is to educate, yet they do not take the time or energy to educate those legislators on the other side of the aisle on just how stupid these laws are by using logic, when the convenience of fear to their own membership is easier and generates more revenue. The problem is; they cannot serve up a viable solution which negotiates a real educational platform by offering national gun registration in exchange for removal of those stupid errant ass laws. We register all guns from Class I, II and III from cradle to grave and you include riders in that legislation the removal of; types of gun, types of ammunition bans, excessive taxes (repeal the NFA) etc. Imagine a session in Congress where the NRA brings in a not-so-scary beautiful 12 ga. over & under, an 870 standard pump and a scary 870 MCS SBS and then hold up a 12 ga. round and states, "you need not be afraid of the weapon as all are the same; what you need to be afraid of is the criminal offender. Over time, the system would migrate from a pipeline of secondary market sales which becomes a black market by allowing law enforcement to remove unregistered guns from the system, thereby removing those guns from the criminals, while increasing the gun ownership market to that of law-abiding citizens and creating a shift of power from those who are criminal offenders to those who are lawful defenders. As an additional rider to that legislation - we; the NRA would ask for, endorse and support more punitive penalties for those criminal offenders using unregistered weapons of any class in the commission of a crime by increasing the penal code to have a clause of 20 years without parole. We pledge to give you full and complete gun registration with an increase in criminal penalties and you give us back our right to own the weapon of choice and we both pledge to defend and protect the Second Amendment. Perhaps not the most perfect of solutions, but at least open the channels of communications to narrow the gap of disparate ideologies, rather than continue to widen that gap and create even more stupid ass laws. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Oh Oh!!! Can we play "Caption this, Pleasse?!?!?! Here's mine... "I pity the fool." http://www.orlandosentinel2.com/data/arrests/index.php?id=1818 Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Guys, I suggest we end this. We've strayed way off subject here. Best thing we can do is respect that we have differing opinions and write to our legislators. It's the holidays and after two days of this, I need some fun. You have some too. Bigun Out. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

If it was that big of an issue of people sticking guns in other's faces, you put the armed civilians at a significant increased risk! *** It was the "armed civilians" sticking the guns in our faces - putting those that were there to help them at risk. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Not in my state, If you buy a car and get stopped, you better have bill of sale/title with dates on them and you must get it registered in your name within 30 days after purchase. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Wow, that's all I gotta do for a car? So I can just buy the car and do a bill of sale and take the title and drive around all I want. I learned something new. I did say that... just in the section on the Hughes Amendment - fault me for not taking it back to the NFA, but the form was acknowledged. Let's not compare England and other countries with ours - as we have the right as a constitutional amendment; whereas, they do not. And, we can argue all day about countries that have very few gun laws and very little violent crime (Finland) vs. those with lotsa gun laws and lotsa violent gun crime crime (Mexico). You do realize that has to do with Market demand the the selling of fear. The weekend after Obama was elected (and I was not an Obama supporter); Gun stores were FLOODED. An FFL friend in Houston sold 50K worth of guns in one weekend. You know why, Cause the NRA sent out a flyer saying the big bad Obama was going to take away our guns and stated quotes he had made which for the most part were untrue. Factcheck.org is a nonpartisan, nonprofit "consumer advocate" for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. Please read the following... [/url]http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html That's why your choice of weapon costs $3,500 dollars.... because they can get it. I'll grant you this had led to some silliness. What also led up to it was Mr. Miller was a bank robber and moonshiner. The original charge was failure to pay the NFA tax (since the Dept. of Treasury was embarrassed by showing up at one of his distillery's and he'd moved it, they found the gun in a truck). Now, let's go back to the NRA... If they used some of that cool money they get to fight the NFA in the Supreme Court today; they'd probably win. Most of the current members of SCOTUS have rendered opinions on it, but no one has taken it to them. No you weren't. Your were issued an "Entry Shotgun" or "Breeching Shotgun" Have you seen the Remington 870MCS? How cool is that? Talk about home defense!! Can you own it? Depends... since you brought up NFA Each state can have laws that regulate whether its residents can possess Title 2 devices (e.g. Machine Guns, suppressors, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun, AOW, etc.). Here's a list of States... [url]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/FAQ/title_2_regulations.htm Back on track, now... This is about the "Gun Show Loop Hole" (secondary market and gun registration and I'll leave it at... I gots no problem with any gun being registered from cradle to grave by each owner. We have to do it for Class II and III, why not Class I? You guys have a happy holiday and a great new year... it's been a fun mud wrestle. See ya in the skies in the spring. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Ya gots to read the whole paragraph. Like the part on, "The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction." Yes, I got some bias... ya kinda get tired of people sticking a gun in your face to help themselves, when you're there trying to help everyone. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Morning/Evening Mike OK. Since New Orleans and confiscations have come up twice now, I'm going to address that. You see, I was there within two days after Katrina hit attached to a Federal & State Special Emergency Response Team (For those who don't know, I run a Disaster Response Company). Our mission is to support the Federal/State teams with an FOB Base Camp and EOC (not unlike a military TOC). They do the operations, we support them as a logistics company. I landed at the Mobile airport and was driving over to New Orleans Tuesday night (Katrina hit on Monday), I was in the lead vehicle and we pulled over to assist some civilians when a car whipped in front of me and three young gentlemen jumped out and started walking towards me.. It being very dark since there was no electrical utility infrastructure, the only lights were those of our vehicle headlights. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for them, my advance party is always comprised of former SF guys.. Within 3 seconds, my team in the trail vehicles had come around in the darkness and the three young gentlemen were gently persuaded that their actions would be better served elsewhere. As we penetrated further into our rally point in Slidell to meet with the State and Federal teams, it was no less than complete anarchy. There were numerous times/incidents of people trying to steal from even the federal/state teams that were coming in with supplies to help those people that were jacked at gunpoint. One of the other vendors and friend who runs an Ice distribution company had two 53' tractors taken at gunpoint. Those gentlemen were later found - not taking the ice for themselves or distributing it amongst the community, but selling the ice and were of course - arrested. I can tell you numerous stories about incidents that led up to the ESF 13 team (Emergency Support Function - Law Enforcement) making the decision to confiscate weapons. I was at the EOC morning briefing when that decision was made; which was made after three civilians had been shot in their homes by looters. Here is a little sidebar that most people don't know... Each State has to pass legislation allowing for the State and local police (NOT federal) to allow for the police to confiscate weapons during a disaster. During a disaster, when the Federal ESF 13 comes into a state, they actually report to the state's ESF 13 team... MISSION STATEMENT In an incident many events will occur which will necessitate law enforcement and other safety measures for the protection of life and property. To maintain law and order, protect life and property, under¬take traffic control, provide law enforcement support to other law enforcement agencies, guard essential facilities and supplies, and coordinate law enforcement mutual aid. COMMAND AND CONTROL When an incident is anticipated or erupts, the ESF 13 Coordinator will coordinate the dispatch of personnel to the affected area(s). Those personnel will coordinate any requests for additional law enforcement resources and made requests through the ESF 13 Coordinator. During a declared emergency or disaster, ultimate responsibility for direction and control of the law enforcement function is vested, by statute, in the Chief Executive Officer of the jurisdiction, e.g., the City Manager/Mayor of incorporated cities, and the County Judge Executive in the remainder of the county. Heads of individual law enforcement agencies have direct control over their own personnel and resources, and exercise direction and control within jurisdictional boundaries. The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction. Responses to incidents requiring resources beyond the capability of the local law enforcement agency will be coordinated through the ESF 13 Coordinator. The Chief Executive Officer has the authority to request the State Police or Federal Law Enforcement agencies for assistance. So, here's what happened... again, after the third civilian was shot by another civilian, the NOPD (not the feds) made the decision (under the mission statement of, "other safety measures for the protection of life and property") that anyone who was walking the streets or boating in the canals with a weapon that could not present ID or had the weapon outside their home would have their weapons confiscated. Here's what was NOT in the news or disseminated by the NRA - there were a total of 458 weapons confiscated, all of which were placed in a repository for and 99.9% of the LEO's who confiscated the weapons told the civilians that when it was over, they could go down to their local police station and find out how to go about retrieving their weapons. After about a year, about 50% of the weapons had still not been claimed. People bitched to the NRA instead of going down to the local police station as advised, the NRA took a grandiose soap box position and made a film about the injustice of it all and sued the city to return the weapons - which was the plan all along. The question the NRA NEVER asked those in the film was, "Did you present them with any ID when asked?" Cause the answer would have been, "No." Now, were mistakes made.... absolutely. No different than mistakes are made in combat (friendly fire, etc.). And, make no mistake, this was a combat zone. And those officers who made those mistakes outside their given orders were reprimanded. In some cases, they were allowed to resign. But, that didn't make the NRA film or news either. So, there were two situations, 1) those who had legal ownership, but had not retrieved their weapons, had not received them because they were too lazy to take their asses down to the local police station to find out where the repository was, or 2) guess who else didn't come to claim "their" weapons. Here's the really cool part, if you went down to claim your weapon, you didn't even HAVE to prove ownership, no bill of sale, no nothing, except a proper ID (Drivers license) . Just a description of the weapon, bring those weapons out, you point at yours and say, "That's mine." They would write down your name in the Release Log; address, phone number (if available), make, model, caliber, and serial number and hand over the weapon. The thing is this.. Just as Jesse Jackson can never proclaim that because we now have an African-American President, there is no need for him to continue to point out prejudice in America and state that he's going back to being a preacher, The NRA can never say (and to a certain point is responsible for the errant stupid ass gun control laws) can bring the government a valid solution or legal proposition for legislative consideration because they are not in the business of putting themselves out of a "cause" and out of a job. You don't think Charlton Heston was their spokesman or their 75 member Board of Directors are in the cause for altruistic reasons, do you? Did you know their CEO makes a million bucks a year, they recently built a new 15 Million dollar "headquarters" and more than 50% of their money goes to fund raising activities. Which is polite for saying what they produce most as an organization is "membership." Between salaries and fund raising activities for membership, that might leave a whole 10% of their revenue stream for the purposes of education as a 501(c)(4) organization. Just as Jesse Jackson has to sell prejudice to stay in business, the NRA has to sell, "The Dingo's gonna get your baby." The solution is simple... Every gun is registered to each owner from cradle to grave. Just like a car. On a final note, you know who are some of the most adamant defenders of the 2nd amendment; Federal, State and Local law enforcement. And they're the one's who get the the bad guys pointing guns at them. By having a national gun registration statute; we can help protect them; protecting us. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

When ya win in Small Claims Court and the Defendant doesn't pay; the Sheriff's "Till Tap" is pretty cool. They never see it coming... Sheriff walks in, opens the cash register, takes out the money and gives them a receipt. Priceless. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

This thread annoys me, consider yourself under citizen's arrest! Is this gonna hurt? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

The licensee IS the FFL. The 4473 specifically states, "This form only should be used for sales or transfers where the seller is licensed under 18 USC S 923." The initial purchaser is referred to as the, "Transferee." Read the form. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

That is incorrect. Form 4473 (Yellow Sheet), must be filled out when a person males an initial purchase from an FFL. If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473. However, some states are beginning to implement individual sellers to sell through dealers and use the Form 4473. But, that has its issues also because the 4473 doesn't go anywhere. So if a crime occurs with a specific gun, where does an LEO go? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

EXACTLY!! Whew, my work here is done. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.